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FadeToBlack

macrumors 68000
Apr 27, 2005
1,843
5
Accoville, WV
RacerX said:
The loss of revenue on Apple's part if they started selling Mac OS X for PC would be massive. To make up for a loss of half their hardware sales (1.5% market share) Mac OS X for PCs would need to capture at least 15% additional market share (and that would be to break even with their current profitability).


If Mac OS X is at all important to you, then Apple hardware should be important to you (even if you are like me and haven't bought a "new" Mac from Apple since 2000). The hardware sales at Apple are what pays for Mac OS X.

We've already seen what happens if a company loses their hardware... after NeXT shutdown hardware production, the OS proved to be a burden. Had Apple not bought NeXT, NeXT was planning on ending development of OPENSTEP altogether. It just wasn't worth it for them in that business model.

Knowing this, even though I think people who buy a new Mac just because Apple released a new Mac are at least a little nuts... I also know that the revenue that those people make for Apple keeps Mac OS X alive and well.

I run Mac OS X on cheep PCs today... of course the cheep PCs I use are used Macs, but the effect is pretty much the same. I get my advanced OS on low priced hardware.


If you care about the future of Mac OS X... you should start caring about that shiny hardware Apple ships. Because even if you never buy any of it while it is shiny and new, the people who do are the ones who are funding Mac OS X's future.

Totally agree! Couldn't have said it better myself.

I like it that Apple provides the total package. (hardware+software)

That is one of the many, many things I can't stand about Windows is that when you go to re-install Windows, you also have to go hunting down drivers for the motherboard, graphics card, sound card, etc.) and on a Mac, you just go to Software Update. Simple as that.
 

prodigiousfool

macrumors newbie
Aug 9, 2006
17
0
25401
RacerX said:
The loss of revenue on Apple's part if they started selling Mac OS X for PC would be massive. To make up for a loss of half their hardware sales (1.5% market share) Mac OS X for PCs would need to capture at least 15% additional market share (and that would be to break even with their current profitability).


If Mac OS X is at all important to you, then Apple hardware should be important to you (even if you are like me and haven't bought a "new" Mac from Apple since 2000). The hardware sales at Apple are what pays for Mac OS X.

We've already seen what happens if a company loses their hardware... after NeXT shutdown hardware production, the OS proved to be a burden. Had Apple not bought NeXT, NeXT was planning on ending development of OPENSTEP altogether. It just wasn't worth it for them in that business model.

Knowing this, even though I think people who buy a new Mac just because Apple released a new Mac are at least a little nuts... I also know that the revenue that those people make for Apple keeps Mac OS X alive and well.

I run Mac OS X on cheep PCs today... of course the cheep PCs I use are used Macs, but the effect is pretty much the same. I get my advanced OS on low priced hardware.


If you care about the future of Mac OS X... you should start caring about that shiny hardware Apple ships. Because even if you never buy any of it while it is shiny and new, the people who do are the ones who are funding Mac OS X's future.


Personally I don't see how you can make that claim. Sure NeXT was going under, but in all reality, what hardware is Microsoft selling? When was the last time you or anyone else bought a Microsoft PC? You buy Dell's or HP's with Microsoft Windows software (albeit way overpriced software [hint: think Office]), but the point is, Microsoft doesn't make hardware, and they certainly seem to be doing well. What was their last R&D budget? $7.8 billion? Yes Apple can more easily support their OS by selling the matching hardware, and it certainly is worth it becuase we all know the quality of OS that we get with that hardware, but saying that OS X or any OS that Apple makes couldn't carry itself demeans the very value of the OS that you are supposedly praising.
 

suneohair

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2006
2,136
0
prodigiousfool said:
Personally I don't see how you can make that claim. Sure NeXT was going under, but in all reality, what hardware is Microsoft selling? When was the last time you or anyone else bought a Microsoft PC? You buy Dell's or HP's with Microsoft Windows software (albeit way overpriced software [hint: think Office]), but the point is, Microsoft doesn't make hardware, and they certainly seem to be doing well. What was their last R&D budget? $7.8 billion? Yes Apple can more easily support their OS by selling the matching hardware, and it certainly is worth it becuase we all know the quality of OS that we get with that hardware, but saying that OS X or any OS that Apple makes couldn't carry itself demeans the very value of the OS that you are supposedly praising.

I don't think the whole world will be switching to Mac OS just because Apple makes it available to everyone.

Microsoft has the OS market wrapped up. If Apple really were to ever think they could compete with the giant that is Microsoft, then they should instead sell whatever drugs they are doing because that might actually turn some profit.
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,075
84
Mr. Mister said:
Two-button mice are more productive since they save you trips up to the menubar, scrollbars, and if you have a remotely advanced one, even the keyboard. End of argument.

Did you even READ this thread??

You don't make trips to the menu bar if you know the key commands. I basically never use the menu bar, but I use a 1 button mouse.
 

mrgreen4242

macrumors 601
Feb 10, 2004
4,377
9
decksnap said:
Did you even READ this thread??

You don't make trips to the menu bar if you know the key commands. I basically never use the menu bar, but I use a 1 button mouse.

I'm gonna admit that no, I haven't read this thread. I read the first page, hopped to the end to see if anything had become of the 2-button mouse makes you more efficient argument. Looks like SOMETHING has...

Anyways, you made my counter point for me. You can do all (well most) of the the things you do with the extra button IF you know the command keys. With a second mouse button, you don't have to know them, which is very helpful... even if you do know them, sometimes you forget, or aren't sure what menu it is you want until you see all the options, etc.

Plus with the multi-button mouse you can do more things with one hand, while using the other hand for ... whatever. ;) That wasn't intended to be dirty. I was thinking of using additional modifier keys on the keyboard, shuffle paper, etc. It gives you more options, and theres no way to argue with that.

Claim the one-button mouse is just as good is like saying the numeric keypad isn't needed because we have a number row. Ya, the same keys are there but the speed and ease of accesses them is far better on the numpad.
 

Mr. Mister

macrumors 6502
Feb 15, 2006
440
0
decksnap said:
Did you even READ this thread??

You don't make trips to the menu bar if you know the key commands. I basically never use the menu bar, but I use a 1 button mouse.
Yes, but any time you do have to, with a two-button mouse there will probably be a contextual menu available with the command you want.
 

weg

macrumors 6502a
Mar 29, 2004
888
0
nj
mad jew said:
It'll be interesting to see if OSX (or later) is ever licensed to another hardware manufacturer. I hope it won't be.

Well, good ol' Bill happily provides Windows XP for your Mac, turning it into an ordinary PC (with a slightly superior design).
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,075
84
Mr. Mister said:
Yes, but any time you do have to, with a two-button mouse there will probably be a contextual menu available with the command you want.

Now I remember why this thread ended... this debate goes in circles. I stand by my claim. The amount of key commands available could never all be listed in a contextual menu, and if they were, it would be useless. Remember that a key command is instant, while scrolling through a list to make a selection isn't.
 

dsnort

macrumors 68000
Jan 28, 2006
1,904
68
In persona non grata
decksnap said:
Did you even READ this thread??

You don't make trips to the menu bar if you know the key commands. I basically never use the menu bar, but I use a 1 button mouse.

Yeah, but if you are a recent switcher like me, the loss of that second mouse button can feel like losing an arm. It's really just a matter of personal preference, there's no moral or intellectual superiority to doing it either way.
 

Mr. Mister

macrumors 6502
Feb 15, 2006
440
0
decksnap said:
Now I remember why this thread ended... this debate goes in circles. I stand by my claim. The amount of key commands available could never all be listed in a contextual menu, and if they were, it would be useless. Remember that a key command is instant, while scrolling through a list to make a selection isn't.
I think the debate ends with "a multi-button mouse cannot possibly be less productive".
 

RacerX

macrumors 65832
Aug 2, 2004
1,504
4
Well, lets take a closer look at what you are saying and it may clear things up a bit for you.

prodigiousfool said:
Sure NeXT was going under...
The first thing to address is the false statement that NeXT was going under... they weren't.

Had NeXT been going under in any way, shape or form, Sun Microsystems would have bought them in a heart beat. Sun had just spent the previous couple years working with NeXT to create a NEXTSTEP environment for Solaris which Sun was going to make the focus of their workstation/desktop push. The new environment was finished and ready, plus Sun had just bought a NeXT software development company for their office suite. All those plans (and all that money Sun spent on the transition) were wiped out when Apple bought NeXT.

It wasn't like Sun couldn't afford to buy NeXT either. At this point Sun was so flush with money that people were speculating that they were going to buy Apple.

What I said was that the operating system business wasn't worth it for NeXT and that they were planning on dropping it. The goal was to get Sun totally up and running with the NeXT environment on their hardware, get the NeXT development community to port their software over, and then NeXT could stop selling their OS and concentrate on Enterprise Objects Frameworks and WebObjects (both of which were very profitable).

Had NeXT either been failing or up for sale in 1996, Sun would have grabbed them instantly. NeXT was for sale to one company and one company only... Apple Computer.

... but in all reality, what hardware is Microsoft selling? When was the last time you or anyone else bought a Microsoft PC? You buy Dell's or HP's with Microsoft Windows software (albeit way overpriced software [hint: think Office]), but the point is, Microsoft doesn't make hardware, and they certainly seem to be doing well. What was their last R&D budget? $7.8 billion?
Microsoft was never a hardware seller, their business model was never based on hardware sales, and they have used some of the worst monopolistic practices known to kill off any competition over the last 20 years.

But I didn't say that selling software couldn't be profitable... what I said was that for Apple to be as profitable as they are right now selling hardware, they would need a massive serge in market share for Mac OS X. Losing half their hardware sales to other PC makers would have to be off set by a 5x increase in the number of people using Mac OS X. Losing all their hardware sales to other PC makers would need to be off set by a 10x increase (in other words, they would need to have almost 35% market share).

And this is only to be as profitable as they are right now. This wouldn't be to be more profitable, this would be to break even.


Lets put this another way, if you sell 10 items a month and your after cost profits make you a good amount of money, would you be willing to attempt to go to a model where you would need to find 100 buyers each month to make the same after cost profit? Would that be a smart move in your opinion?

And what would you do while attempting to drum up this extra business? You wouldn't get it overnight and switching from one model to the other would mean a massive loss in revenue for you.

Would you do something like that? Would any one give up what they have now to hopefully work their way back up to the same level of profitability in the future? And in the mean time you make less money?

That type of logic is flawed on so many levels.

Yes Apple can more easily support their OS by selling the matching hardware, and it certainly is worth it becuase we all know the quality of OS that we get with that hardware, but saying that OS X or any OS that Apple makes couldn't carry itself demeans the very value of the OS that you are supposedly praising.
Not at all, the reality is that the best products are not the ones that make it in business.

Case in point... OS/2.

OS/2 was a much better OS than anything Microsoft had to offer (in fact, it's foundations would later become what Microsoft offers as Windows today) back in the early 1990s. Why wasn't it successful?

For one thing, IBM had problems getting it preinstalled on PCs. And Microsoft knows that whatever software comes on the average users PC is the software they are going to use.

The first time Microsoft was brought up on monopoly charges was for forcing PC hardware makers to only include MS-DOS on their new PCs. They were able to remove competition from DR-DOS, OS/2 and later the BeOS by doing this. And even though they lost court cases over both DR-DOS and the BeOS, the final effect was that those are no longer threats to Microsoft.

Microsoft knows that better products don't win in the market. That is why they changed their business model in the early 1980s from developing new and innovative software to being reactionary... basically watching what is taking off and then buying their way into (and attempting to take over) those markets.


The best products aren't the most successful. The products that have the most money behind them are. And the ones you can place in front of people are.

This was how Microsoft won the browser wars, people use what is placed in front of them rather than looking for the best product.

It is consumer inertia. A consumer sitting at arms length from a product will use that product rather than getting up to find a better one.

And I can show examples of this within the Mac community too.

Watson was better than Sherlock, but Sherlock came with Mac OS X so people used Sherlock, were unimpressed, and then stopped using those types of apps all together.

Nisus Thesaurus is far better than Dictionary that comes with Mac OS X now, but people won't try Nisus Thesaurus because Dictionary is already there.

OmniWeb is far better than Safari, but again, Safari is bundled with Mac OS X, and people use what is already there.

The reality is that it just doesn't matter that Mac OS X is better than Windows. That is just how the world works.


:rolleyes:

And Microsoft knows this very well.
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,075
84
Mr. Mister said:
I think the debate ends with "a multi-button mouse cannot possibly be less productive".

My debate as stated earlier was that a one button mouse isn't less productive, not that it is more productive. I do find contextual menus useless but that's just because I am beyond them for the most part- and when I do use them, it is from they keyboard.
 

Mr. Mister

macrumors 6502
Feb 15, 2006
440
0
But a multi-button mouse will always have the chance, in the right hands, of being more productive. For example, scrolling and working in any 3D app.
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,075
84
Mr. Mister said:
But a multi-button mouse will always have the chance, in the right hands, of being more productive. For example, scrolling and working in any 3D app.

uggh. read the thread. :rolleyes:
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,075
84
What are you 12? Read the thread because all of this has been hashed out already.
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Jun 25, 2002
5,684
1
LaLaLand, CA
dsnort said:
Yeah, but if you are a recent switcher like me, the loss of that second mouse button can feel like losing an arm.
You know you can buy any USB mouse and it'll work fine right? Or just configure your Mighty Mouse as a 2 button one. Or just hold down the 1 button in most apps and a contextual menu pops up.

Mr. Mister said:
I was just stating my opinion, I don't need to read the thread to do that.
Maybe it was the way you presented it. ;) Be nice, and back something up if you're going to present it as fact. People can be just as productive with a 1 button mouse if they know how to maneuver the OS (Blue for example), but some are more comfortable with more buttons. I, for one, have a Logitech with 6 buttons. I even use the other 5 occasionally. :p
 

dsnort

macrumors 68000
Jan 28, 2006
1,904
68
In persona non grata
solvs said:
You know you can buy any USB mouse and it'll work fine right? Or just configure your Mighty Mouse as a 2 button one. Or just hold down the 1 button in most apps and a contextual menu pops up.

Yeah, I figured all that out. But it was a stressful couple of days until I did. And though I tried to like it, I eventualy gave the MM the heave ho. Took the M$ mouse off my old PC and it's working fine, ( the M$ mouse is really very decent).
 

Macmadant

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 4, 2005
851
0
dsnort said:
Yeah, I figured all that out. But it was a stressful couple of days until I did. And though I tried to like it, I eventualy gave the MM the heave ho. Took the M$ mouse off my old PC and it's working fine, ( the M$ mouse is really very decent).
Well of course the M$ mouse is good it's not even made by them, they get someone else to make it and slap their logo on it (although i don't recall who makes them)
 

vvv

macrumors newbie
Aug 28, 2006
14
0
Macmadant said:
Well of course the M$ mouse is good it's not even made by them, they get someone else to make it and slap their logo on it (although i don't recall who makes them)

Unlike apple who makes all of their own stuff......
 

Mackilroy

macrumors 601
Jun 29, 2006
4,055
899
RacerX said:
OmniWeb is far better than Safari, but again, Safari is bundled with Mac OS X, and people use what is already there.

This is more a matter of personal preference – I've used both Omnieb and Safari and I prefer Safari.
 

JAT

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2001
6,473
124
Mpls, MN
You are all wrong. I only use 4 buttoned trackballs. They are far more productive than your puny 2 buttons. And cause no carpal pain.

I used to use QuicKeys or equivalent all the time to make the keyboard more productive, along with my trackball. Now that I'm forced to use WinXP at work, I've given up on ease of use for the keyboard, Windows is the worst OS in history for keyboard shortcut use. Ctrl-F4 to close a window, wtf?!
 

kadajawi

macrumors member
Jan 20, 2006
83
0
JAT said:
Windows is the worst OS in history for keyboard shortcut use. Ctrl-F4 to close a window, wtf?!
Doesn't that make sense when Alt+F4 closes a program? Recently I switched, and I am really missing Strg+Arrows to move quickly in texts, etc.
 
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