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Is the 2009/2010 Mac Pro the best Mac Apple have ever made?
- Thread starter JazzyGB1
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Your ignorance is astounding, young padawan.
Buuuuuuuut hey, whatever makes you happy! Right?
Okay, and you can't accept some people don't like Windows no matter what because? Linux is on the cusp on being a 100% replacement to Windows and OS X. It's gotten less issue-riddled by the month.
No, I think you're happier than I am right now.
Oh, pleeeeze, Linux being a complete replacement for Windows and MacOS? That will never happen. Crap like that has been said for years and it still hasn't come close to fruition. While Linux is solid, it is hardly approachable for the masses.
You're free to like/dislike what you want, but you have yet to give a valid, logical reason for disliking Windows other than what you would experience on a bloatware loaded work laptop or from a 5 minute experience of trying to install Windows 7 (which was a turd) on a dinosaur mac. If I acted like that, I would HATE MacOS. It took me (and I bet everyone else) several days and mental effort to get used to MacOS upon switching before seeing that it's a great OS. You stuck a toe in the pool and decided that swimming isn't for you without even trying the actual act of swimming. You remind me of the classic high school argument (which is so tiring to hear at my age) Macs suck, PC suck! Ford sucks, Chevy sucks! Upon growing older, nothing really sucks, and there's reasons to admire and respect different things for different reasons.
It all comes back to "whatever makes you happy", and that's really my final sentiment. If you feel that the 3,1 is no slouch in 2017 (almost 2018) with El Capitan, than that's really awesome! What you don't know, is sometimes better, like I also have been saying. The 5,1 was an astronomical upgrade in speed/performance over the 3,1, in 2017. Imagine how I'd feel if I stuck in a new i9? Hey, ignorance is bliss for me too!
The 3,1 in El Capitan with a SSD IS a slouch for what I have experienced. Dude, you're limited to what's called an FSB, something that computers don't have anymore. Even stuff like loading a webpage requires just a few more ms of time, which is obnoxious. Opening a browser should only hit a bottleneck of internet latency, and not a bottleneck of a system. Because you have 8 cores vs 4 cores does not change this at all. I know your machine and I've used it for 10 years. And I consider the 3,1 the best Mac Pro ever made. But nowadays? Try editing a 30 minute HD video in the latest iMovie, and you'll find that it's like biting and scraping your teeth along a chalkboard. Try putting in a modern GPU and run some benchmarks and you'll see that the 3,1 heavily bottlenecks even the low-end GPUs of today. Soon, the 3,1 just like the prior models, is going to find itself to be donation material. I still will say, with a 3,1, unless you have a specific reason to be in MacOS, Windows 10 will keep it more current and keep it faster. You could argue that it may be more secure in Windows. 3,1 in MacOS is outdated, unsupported, and old hat that nobody wants when it comes time to pawn it. It will soon by like that PowerMac G5 where you'll be lucky to get a couple twenty dollar bills for.
You're free to like/dislike what you want, but you have yet to give a valid, logical reason for disliking Windows other than what you would experience on a bloatware loaded work laptop or from a 5 minute experience of trying to install Windows 7 (which was a turd) on a dinosaur mac. If I acted like that, I would HATE MacOS. It took me (and I bet everyone else) several days and mental effort to get used to MacOS upon switching before seeing that it's a great OS. You stuck a toe in the pool and decided that swimming isn't for you without even trying the actual act of swimming. You remind me of the classic high school argument (which is so tiring to hear at my age) Macs suck, PC suck! Ford sucks, Chevy sucks! Upon growing older, nothing really sucks, and there's reasons to admire and respect different things for different reasons.
It all comes back to "whatever makes you happy", and that's really my final sentiment. If you feel that the 3,1 is no slouch in 2017 (almost 2018) with El Capitan, than that's really awesome! What you don't know, is sometimes better, like I also have been saying. The 5,1 was an astronomical upgrade in speed/performance over the 3,1, in 2017. Imagine how I'd feel if I stuck in a new i9? Hey, ignorance is bliss for me too!
The 3,1 in El Capitan with a SSD IS a slouch for what I have experienced. Dude, you're limited to what's called an FSB, something that computers don't have anymore. Even stuff like loading a webpage requires just a few more ms of time, which is obnoxious. Opening a browser should only hit a bottleneck of internet latency, and not a bottleneck of a system. Because you have 8 cores vs 4 cores does not change this at all. I know your machine and I've used it for 10 years. And I consider the 3,1 the best Mac Pro ever made. But nowadays? Try editing a 30 minute HD video in the latest iMovie, and you'll find that it's like biting and scraping your teeth along a chalkboard. Try putting in a modern GPU and run some benchmarks and you'll see that the 3,1 heavily bottlenecks even the low-end GPUs of today. Soon, the 3,1 just like the prior models, is going to find itself to be donation material. I still will say, with a 3,1, unless you have a specific reason to be in MacOS, Windows 10 will keep it more current and keep it faster. You could argue that it may be more secure in Windows. 3,1 in MacOS is outdated, unsupported, and old hat that nobody wants when it comes time to pawn it. It will soon by like that PowerMac G5 where you'll be lucky to get a couple twenty dollar bills for.
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Yes, it is an issue and one which I've experienced myself. However it is not, as you stated, normal behavior for Windows. The correct course of action is to troubleshoot and fix the problem just as you would an issue with any other OS.
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As much as I like Linux I can't say I see it being a replacement for Windows or macOS. While Linux is fairly easy to use it suffers from two things which hold it back:
- Lack of software support. Yes, there are all kinds of great open source and some commercial software for it. But most aren't at the level of those available on Windows or macOS.
- Interface refinement. I have Ubuntu 16.04 installed on my Z620 system. Occasionally I want to check mail on it so I use Thunderbird. Unfortunately Thunderbird, at least for me, lacks refinement. It doesn't work the way I think it should. Despite years of change Linux and many of the applications lack polish. I feel like I'm back in the old days as software was growing up.
I think you might be mixing ignorance with opinion.
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Damn. Those two issues are the only major blockades preventing it from taking off. Although I have to say the first one is workable via Wine and the second one is resolvable with customization and different distributions.
What about Mint? Isn't it refined enough for you? MATE? Peppermint? LXDE? This is why it's appealing so much to me, the possibilities are endless. It really could be for anyone.
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I agree with your disagreement! With all the back and forth of the "slow" 3,1 the mentioning of specific software has been neglected. Say you're using Native Instruments within Digital Performer and with lots of RAM all your trks play. In ProTools 32+ (some bussing) trks, all audio trks with UAD and Waves play. When your song(s) are on iTunes or the radio no one says "that could not have been done on a 3,1". If producing orchestral music with oodles of trks there may be a different story. Super fast RAIDs and tricks may be necessary if even possible.
On the video front using Media Composer, problem footage includes P GH4, P GH5 and R3D Dragon. This mainly has to do with MC's engine. If MC was CUDA based or it's 20+ year old engine was rewritten, certain footage would not be an issue. There are many "workarounds" in MC pertaining to exporting. A 2:22 clip takes 18:00 to export to h.264 on my 3,1 from MC. The same clip saved as an AAF, imported into Resolve and exported (via CUDA) takes 3:52!
If you didn't know other NLE's don't have this problem and or the AAF workflow, you would fault the 3,1.
All this to say the 3,1 is very usable in specific settings with tricks and proven workflows. Without a doubt it has serious limitations! Definitely looking forward to see what the mMP will offer. The thought of transcoding 6K-8K footage just to edit is a reason to say good-bye 3,1!
They're the two issues I believe is holding Linux back. Others may disagree or have more reasons. As for the choice in distributions I feel that is a weakness as there's too much variation. What does a developer write to? In addition the way the Thunderbird UI functions is distribution independent. It'll function the way it functions regardless of distribution.
Yes, there are. Having said that you seem to be missing the point which is the issue I raised about Thunderbird is common among Linux software.
Which doesn't change the fundamental problem that Linux software, at least IMO, has poor UI design.
The number of Linux distributions is also endless, as well as the complete disregard for compatibility between versions even within a distro. (To hell with Upstart, let's change everything to SystemD.)
Wrong. fendersrule brought up the topic of alternative operating systems. I introduced Linux because he was going on about Windows 10 and how much better it was than OS X. He listed Windows' points, I listed Linux's. And for the record, he was the more adamant one. You can look at the posts.
I'll rephrase that. This is a thread about the Mac Pro, not Windows or Linux.
Still didn't change the fact that you are the person who bring up Linux.
Anyway, Mac Pro is the hardware, Windows or Linux is the software. And Mac Pro will be a piece of rubbish without software. I can't see why it's irrelevant. This post is about the best Mac Pro hardware. The capability of the hardware able to run which OS of course is an important factor.
e.g. a Mac Pro can run all MacOS, Windows, Linux, should be a better Mac Pro than another one that can only run MacOS.
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-thread-merged.1687808/page-105#post-25216965
You've been tooting the same horn for while. Not too long ago, you said your 3,1 was "blistering fast" and "screams". Recently you've had to go back on that statement after spending more time with it, I guess. Whatever you do, don't go near a well equipped 5,1 because you'd be doing the time warp with that perception.
Your basis of comparison is a PowerMac G5 for everything, which puts you in an interesting position. That's a long grey beard!
It's very relevant to the discussion to recommend operating systems that maximize OBSOLETE hardware. You'll find that many of us have a Windows drive here. You talk about extending hardware as long as possible, but completely poop on Windows for childish reasons when it's mentioned. Like somehow Windows 10 destroys your privacy rights, is a tablet UI, and is inferior over Windows 7. None of those are remotely true. I wanted to correct your statement above. I never said that Windows is better than MacOS (or "OS X" if we're talking about obsolete OSs). I'm saying that Windows 10, is more current, and will bring your machine out of "obsolete" stratus, and is better optimized for a 3,1. That to me is a better OS for that machine. To show you how much I care about MacOS, I decided to not do that with my 3,1 and get a 5,1 instead which runs both OSs "blazingly" fast. The truth is, many people don't care about MacOS, and just want something that isn't slow and works. These people whom I know, who happened to have 3,1s, found some new life with a Windows 10 installation that I've done for them.
Relax and take a chill pill. Listen to some of the gurus around here. No one around here trashes MacOS either, we're all fans because we're here. But you gotta learn to accept reality and advice when it comes to these old beasts. These guys know how to keep old stuff trotting along better than anyone else. And I know the 3,1 inside and out. I also know the PowerMacs inside and out.
FYI, to bring more relevancy back to the discussion, you imply that maxing out your 3,1's RAM will make it scream. Have you priced out FB-DIMMs yet? And btw, RAM quantity does not increase the speed of a computer. And BTW, there is no significant CPU upgrade for the 3,1. I'm curious what you had in mind for dual GPUs as well with only an OS X installation.
You've been tooting the same horn for while. Not too long ago, you said your 3,1 was "blistering fast" and "screams". Recently you've had to go back on that statement after spending more time with it, I guess. Whatever you do, don't go near a well equipped 5,1 because you'd be doing the time warp with that perception.
Your basis of comparison is a PowerMac G5 for everything, which puts you in an interesting position. That's a long grey beard!
It's very relevant to the discussion to recommend operating systems that maximize OBSOLETE hardware. You'll find that many of us have a Windows drive here. You talk about extending hardware as long as possible, but completely poop on Windows for childish reasons when it's mentioned. Like somehow Windows 10 destroys your privacy rights, is a tablet UI, and is inferior over Windows 7. None of those are remotely true. I wanted to correct your statement above. I never said that Windows is better than MacOS (or "OS X" if we're talking about obsolete OSs). I'm saying that Windows 10, is more current, and will bring your machine out of "obsolete" stratus, and is better optimized for a 3,1. That to me is a better OS for that machine. To show you how much I care about MacOS, I decided to not do that with my 3,1 and get a 5,1 instead which runs both OSs "blazingly" fast. The truth is, many people don't care about MacOS, and just want something that isn't slow and works. These people whom I know, who happened to have 3,1s, found some new life with a Windows 10 installation that I've done for them.
Relax and take a chill pill. Listen to some of the gurus around here. No one around here trashes MacOS either, we're all fans because we're here. But you gotta learn to accept reality and advice when it comes to these old beasts. These guys know how to keep old stuff trotting along better than anyone else. And I know the 3,1 inside and out. I also know the PowerMacs inside and out.
FYI, to bring more relevancy back to the discussion, you imply that maxing out your 3,1's RAM will make it scream. Have you priced out FB-DIMMs yet?
And btw, RAM quantity does not increase the speed of a computer. And BTW, there is no significant CPU upgrade for the 3,1. I'm curious what you had in mind for dual GPUs as well with only an OS X installation.
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Maxing out a 3,1 with 32GB will cost under $50 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...imm 4gb&rt=nc&LH_BIN=1&_trksid=p2045573.m1684FYI, to bring more relevancy back to the discussion, you imply that maxing out your 3,1's RAM will make it scream. Have you priced out FB-DIMMs yet?
Increasing RAM will increase speed if the system is memory limited. Even if not memory limited adding extra memory will increase throughput & capacity e.g. allowing the user to have more VMs running simultaneously. Spending $50 for 32GB of FB-DIMMs is a very cost effective upgrade for a 3,1.
FYI, the 3,1 come with 6400 FB-DIMM. It's more expensive than what you linked to max out.
Ram will increase throughput, but only if you're actually running out. Ram quantity doesn't increase speed when there is no ram bottleneck in place.
Ram will increase throughput, but only if you're actually running out. Ram quantity doesn't increase speed when there is no ram bottleneck in place.
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Damn right I'm gonna toot this horn for as long as I can. What I love I promote. Most humans tend to do that. Also, good job cherry-picking what I praised about the 3,1. You left out the fact that I said and I quote: "Yes, a 5,1, 6,1 will kick it well enough." I admitted the 5,1 will kick its ass. That's the argument here, isn't it? This proves you are biased.
You cannot tell me what my basis of comparison is. This is not the same as going from a 350 MHz rev. 1 G3 750 to a 700 MHz rev. 2 G4 7450. I know what fast is. I know what 2017 speeds are, and I'm applying said 2017 speeds directly to this Mac Pro. And for the record, the Power Mac G5 was pretty damn fast when I used it. Might be my optimization skills, might be my software organization, might be just because it simply liked me.
I've got an idea. How about you get another 3,1, really upgrade it, give it a fresh install, optimize it out the wazoo, and then tell me it's not fast compared to modern computers.
Now, is that still not 'chill' enough for you?
I just realized you've got a 5,1, meanwhile I have a 3,1. We've got owner bias.
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Actually, excess RAM will be used by the filesystem caches, and therefore can increase speed somewhat by reducing time spent waiting on disk reads.
The 3,1 is a solid system capable of doing a lot of real work today. From an absolute performance perspective none of the cMP (and I could even argue the 6,1 Mac Pro) are competitive with current technology offerings. But we continue to use them. What separates the 1,1 - 3,1 is Apple's discontinuation of operating system support. Last year 3,1's were still desirable. With the release of macOS Sierra that changed over night.https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-thread-merged.1687808/page-105#post-25216965
You've been tooting the same horn for while. Not too long ago, you said your 3,1 was "blistering fast" and "screams". Recently you've had to go back on that statement after spending more time with it, I guess. Whatever you do, don't go near a well equipped 5,1 because you'd be doing the time warp with that perception.
Your basis of comparison is a PowerMac G5 for everything, which puts you in an interesting position. That's a long grey beard!
It's very relevant to the discussion to recommend operating systems that maximize OBSOLETE hardware. You'll find that many of us have a Windows drive here. You talk about extending hardware as long as possible, but completely poop on Windows for childish reasons when it's mentioned. Like somehow Windows 10 destroys your privacy rights, is a tablet UI, and is inferior over Windows 7. None of those are remotely true. I wanted to correct your statement above. I never said that Windows is better than MacOS (or "OS X" if we're talking about obsolete OSs). I'm saying that Windows 10, is more current, and will bring your machine out of "obsolete" stratus, and is better optimized for a 3,1. That to me is a better OS for that machine. To show you how much I care about MacOS, I decided to not do that with my 3,1 and get a 5,1 instead which runs both OSs "blazingly" fast. The truth is, many people don't care about MacOS, and just want something that isn't slow and works. These people whom I know, who happened to have 3,1s, found some new life with a Windows 10 installation that I've done for them.
Relax and take a chill pill. Listen to some of the gurus around here. No one around here trashes MacOS either, we're all fans because we're here. But you gotta learn to accept reality and advice when it comes to these old beasts. These guys know how to keep old stuff trotting along better than anyone else. And I know the 3,1 inside and out. I also know the PowerMacs inside and out.
FYI, to bring more relevancy back to the discussion, you imply that maxing out your 3,1's RAM will make it scream. Have you priced out FB-DIMMs yet?
Whether a 3,1 is blazing fast depends on what you need it to do. Long gone are the days when a new generation of CPU / Mac was released and the majority of the market would see increased productivity. It's only those who need the latest technology who will benefit. I read the PPC section of this forum and I'm impressed with what the guys in that forum do with older equipment. In the end whether a system is fast enough depends on the end users needs. IMO the 3,1 Mac Pro is still a solid system for many users.
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I'm gonna say something controversial: I think the powermac G4 MDD is the best Mac ever made. While it was never the fastest computer, mine lasted 12 years before I sold it, and it was still chugging away. I say chug literally - it sounded like a jet engine, but that's how you knew it was working. I had it stuffed with 6 hard drives - 4 PATA and 2 SATA on a PCI card. Maxed out with 2 Gb RAM, and the firewire 800 port was amazing for external file transfers. It ran with an uptime of close to 100% with absolutely no hardware failures or crashes - something that can't be said for newer Macs I've had.
I upgraded from the MDD to a MP 3,1 tower, and not only was it just as loud as the G4, but it sucked about 3X the power. I only kept the 3,1 for a year before I upgraded to an nMP, which I love due to the small size and absolute silence. For my purposes it's better than the MP towers, but it was a bit scary making the leap to such a proprietary system. Now that I've had the nMP for a few years, I don't mind the non-upgradability, as its plenty fast for me and will be for the foreseeable future. Having 6 thunderbolt 2 ports is totally sweet. I have a 50 foot optical thunderbolt cable running through my walls so my external hard drives are in the basement. That way I can't hear the hard drives whirring but I still get plenty of transfer speed. In my opinion, this is a vast improvement over internal drives. I don't play many games, so the built-in video cards are fine. I just hope mine doesn't get the dreaded video card failure...
I upgraded from the MDD to a MP 3,1 tower, and not only was it just as loud as the G4, but it sucked about 3X the power. I only kept the 3,1 for a year before I upgraded to an nMP, which I love due to the small size and absolute silence. For my purposes it's better than the MP towers, but it was a bit scary making the leap to such a proprietary system. Now that I've had the nMP for a few years, I don't mind the non-upgradability, as its plenty fast for me and will be for the foreseeable future. Having 6 thunderbolt 2 ports is totally sweet. I have a 50 foot optical thunderbolt cable running through my walls so my external hard drives are in the basement. That way I can't hear the hard drives whirring but I still get plenty of transfer speed. In my opinion, this is a vast improvement over internal drives. I don't play many games, so the built-in video cards are fine. I just hope mine doesn't get the dreaded video card failure...