Is the new Mac Pro a failure?

[handsome pete]

The other point is we have HD cameras everywhere. Even Kids have access to multiples ones now. Unlike 10 yrs ago. Thus a growing market for FCP which is optimized for nMP. And it can easily be taken to a friends house for the night.

You continue to work up this scenario but never address the fact that the nMP is not unique for this type of editing, nor is it even close to being the most portable.

And why does the increase in cameras among consumers automatically necessitate FCPX?

 

[DesterWallaboo]

The nMP is awesome. Anyone that owns one that works in the film/video/vfx knows exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[tuxon86]

I'm sorry I keep bringing up GoPro. Forget them. I don't use them either. Just as an example. You seem to be stuck on it. The real point is the rising popularity of video recorders.

The other point is we have HD cameras everywhere. Even Kids have access to multiples ones now. Unlike 10 yrs ago. Thus a growing market for FCP which is optimized for nMP. And it can easily be taken to a friends house for the night.

The vast majority of consumer grade HD camera save in a compressed format, mostly h264. So the same thing applies to them also. Nobody needs a workstation to edit those videos.

 

[MacProCard]

You continue to work up this scenario but never address the fact that the nMP is not unique for this type of editing, nor is it even close to being the most portable.

And why does the increase in cameras among consumers automatically necessitate FCPX?

It's for video editing. What don't you understand about growing markets? Or product development? Or forecasting? Have you ever taken a business class? If not, then why are you trying to engage me in a business discussion?

 

[sjinsjca]

Imagine what a huge fail a computer would be if it had NO fans!

Why, the silly thing would only be a quarter inch thick.

Oh wait...

 

[goMac]

You forgot the screen and the external HDD...

A laptop workstation is even more portable, too bad Apple aren't selling any. HP does though...

Eh, yes, no?

It's tough for me to agree with that because the Retina Macbook Pro is so darn close to what you're talking about.

A nice high res >1080p screen, fast processor, killer OpenCL co-processor, super fast storage, Thunderbolt/PCI-E external expansion...

The problem is the GPU. If you have a heavy OpenGL workflow, you have a problem. OpenCL on the Macbook Pro screams with the Iris Card (honestly, competitive with most workstations out there) but OpenGL is a problem.

The Macbook Pro is actually a great choice for power users who don't quite need the power of the Mac Pro. If the Macbook Pro supported external GPUs that choice would get even tougher.

Yeah, but G4s were both power-hungry and gutless, G5s performed like workstations.

The G4s were good at first, but they quickly turned to junk. Even the P4s ran faster and cooler, and that's just sad.

Just that it's a emerging market which translates into potential sales. I haven't seen the numbers but imagine they look good. I bet the average upper-middle class homes have at least 10-15 HD cameras. They even tied the marketing of the nMP to FCP. Which strong suit is multicam. My son is in the 4th grade and they have movie making camp at his school. The best markets are the growing ones.

For serious? I'm not exactly average and I doubt I have anywhere near 10 HD cameras at my place, and I'm counting old iPhones here...

 

[Larry-K]

)
MP6,1 carries a 3 year warranty. The MP5,1 are no longer under warranty.

Don't know how you came up with that. I could have bought one last week with a 1-year Apple warranty and extended it with Apple Care to 3 years.

2 of my 5,1s are all still under warranty.

 

[DesterWallaboo]

You continue to work up this scenario but never address the fact that the nMP is not unique for this type of editing, nor is it even close to being the most portable.

And why does the increase in cameras among consumers automatically necessitate FCPX?

You're wrong on this. With to H264, AVCHD, etc.... you can pretty much edit that on anything from a laptop to a desktop. Hell, you can even edit some of that on an iPad. But the film/video industry isn't typically shooting in H.264 or AVCHD. We are shooting RAW 4K/5K/6K and even some 8K footage which has way more overhead than any of the cheap consumer/prosumer codecs. There isn't another platform on the market today that can stream RAW 4K REDcam footage in realtime. Yet, the nMP certainly can... without a hiccup.

 

[handsome pete]

It's for video editing. What don't you understand about growing markets? Or product development? Or forecasting? Have you ever taken a business class? If not, then why are you trying to engage me in a business discussion?

Because there are many other competing products in this emerging market you're creating that are more portable (which seems to big your main argument) and/or cheaper.

What is so unique to the nMP and FCPX that can't be done on a smaller/cheaper device?

 

[DesterWallaboo]

What is so unique to the nMP and FCPX that can't be done on a smaller/cheaper device?

See my post above.

 

[goMac]

Avid+BM/davinci+Premier+AE. Thats about it in both in the industry & schools where they teach the youngsters. Havent seen FCP in ages there.

From what I've seen, lots of video pros like FCP in theory. But they don't trust that it will continue to exist. And they don't trust Apple's pro line will continue to exist.

I've had several strong conversations in defense of Apple with video pros since. I was told point blank by someone in the video software industry that they should just pull out of the Apple market and the Mac Pro was dead (this was before the nMP.)

Now, I don't think personally Apple wants to give up on the pro market, or is showing FCP the door. But confidence in Apple and FCP is still pretty low. But I think that's what pushed a lot of people to AE. Adobe isn't a great company, but you know they're not going anywhere.

 

[handsome pete]

You're wrong on this. With to H264, AVCHD, etc.... you can pretty much edit that on anything from a laptop to a desktop. Hell, you can even edit some of that on an iPad. But the film/video industry isn't typically shooting in H.264 or AVCHD. We are shooting RAW 4K/5K/6K and even some 8K footage which has way more overhead than any of the cheap consumer/prosumer codecs. There isn't another platform on the market today that can stream RAW 4K REDcam footage in realtime. Yet, the nMP certainly can... without a hiccup.

That wasn't the discussion we were having. He's specifically referring to the consumer market and the myriad of newer devices that shoot h.264, AVCHD, etc.

I'm well aware of what's needed for the pro codecs and higher resolutions and I have my fair share of hours behind RED cameras. But the high end stuff was never part of this.

----------

See my post above.

See my reply.

 

[goMac]

That wasn't the discussion we were having. He's specifically referring to the consumer market and the myriad of newer devices that shoot h.264, AVCHD, etc.

I'm well aware of what's needed for the pro codecs and higher resolutions and I have my fair share of hours behind RED cameras. But the high end stuff was never part of this.

Heh. I think there is actually a good point going on here. You don't actually need a Mac Pro these days to do video editing.

If you're only working in 1080p, a Mac Pro is entirely inconsequential. You can do that work on a Mini.

If you're working on something a bit higher end, Thunderbolt has been somewhat of an equalizer. You can use a Red Rocket card now on a Mac Mini or a Macbook Pro. Even if you're chained to your desk, a Macbook Pro isn't a bad option over a Mac Pro.

Now, if you're doing special effects, like say, I'm-working-on-the-actual-Transformers-movie-and-I-have-millions-of-particles, the Mac Pro becomes a bit more necessary. But I doubt high schoolers are doing that.

 

[handsome pete]

I've had several strong conversations in defense of Apple with video pros since. I was told point blank by someone in the video software industry that they should just pull out of the Apple market and the Mac Pro was dead (this was before the nMP.)

I think the issue is in what level it will be used. The term "PRO" is ambiguous these days and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'll certainly be a FCPX user as a freelancer and for personal stuff. I imagine smaller shops could go that way as well. But none of the engineers I talk to regularly will even think about it for the larger facilities/studios.

 

[Radiating]

I know it's faster, but that isn't anything amazing - computers are going to get faster anyway. Here are some of the problems that I believe it has

You seem to have an agenda that is intended to bash the new Mac Pro. Your post misses the entire point of the machine completely and totally.

Let's start with the specs:

1. No PCI slots - Thunderbolt is slower than pci and it also means that you have all the expansions all over your desk. Wires everywhere.

The new Mac Pro can support 43 pcie "slots". 43. There is no workstation in the world that can do that.

Thunderbolt is not slower than pcie. Thunderbolt is pcie 4x over a cable combined with displayport. Most motherboards only provide pcie 4x for the expansion ports outside the video card.


Here's a helpful hint too... There are no devices in the world that make use of pcie 8x and above except for video cards costing more than $600, and crazy storage solutions that write gigabytes of data per second.

There are work around a for both of these usage scenarios that mitigate any limitations. 99% of pcie cards are 8x or under or suffer a meaningless performance hit when run at 4x.

If cables REALLY bother you the I have the perfect solution.

2. Not many usb ports

No. The Mac Pro supports over 400 USB ports. What are you talking about? And don't tell me that it's too much trouble to instal USB hub. You're lazy if that's the case.

3. Non user replaceable parts

Every part is user replaceable. You have no idea what you are talking about.

4. Only one fan

What? What?

5. Not rack mountable

That's not actually true

6. Extreme price increase


Thunderbolt is slower than PCI and way more expensive. It seems like it isn't very practical?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3XcUUZQqd0

You clearly just put together a list with the only intention being to bash the Mac Pro. You obviously do not have a real world usage scenario that is limited by the Mac Pro and you obviously did not think this through.

The fact of the matter is that the Mac Pro is better in every conceivable dimension than the last version. It is more expandable on every way. Smaller. Has more graphics computing power, supporting up to 17 GeForce Titan Black video cards or quatro cards. The old one didn't do SLI so you have 25% more gaming power than a single GeForce Titan Black with Dual D700's in crossfire. You can get 3 times more storage throughput with 24gb/s speeds, more pcie cards with expansion boxes etc. it's quieter, more power efficient, AND it's cheaper on a component level.

The only downside to the new Mac Pro is that it's new and there are new ways of integrating it and this scares people who are set in their ways.

 

[handsome pete]

Now, if you're doing special effects, like say, I'm-working-on-the-actual-Transformers-movie-and-I-have-millions-of-particles, the Mac Pro becomes a bit more necessary. But I doubt high schoolers are doing that.

I've been surprised what I've seen students push a laptop or iMac for.

But you're right. For heavy duty computational work, I wouldn't want to rely on anything but a workstation.

 

[goMac]

I think the issue is in what level it will be used. The term "PRO" is ambiguous these days and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'll certainly be a FCPX user as a freelancer and for personal stuff. I imagine smaller shops could go that way as well. But none of the engineers I talk to regularly will even think about it for the larger facilities/studios.

FCP always used to be used more by the smaller shops, a few larger studios. But Adobe has really done a great job of going after smaller shops while Apple sat around.

I don't even use AE or PP these days, and yet I still "own" it through my Creative Cloud subscription. That's how easy it is for one to get their hands on it.

 

[ActionableMango]

They weren't able to keep up with demand for 7 months; so no, it's successful.

High demand is one possibility. The other is that there could be problems in the supply chain, thus limiting supply.

It all depends on what your requirements are. IMO the nMP isn't a failure but it is more narrowly focused than the oMP.

Well said. The very fact that there is so much debate shows two things: (1) The nMP suits a lot of people well or even better than the oMP, and it's the best things since sliced bread. (2) There are also a lot of people such as myself who were left out from the narrowing focus of the nMP, who hate it with the fire of a thousand suns, and are sort of left not knowing what to do now.

nMP? Nope
Hackintosh? Ugh
Mini? Nope
iMac? Ugh

 

[MacVidCards]

The fact of the matter is that the Mac Pro is better in every conceivable dimension than the last version. It is more expandable on every way. Smaller. Has more graphics computing power, supporting up to 17 GeForce Titan Black video cards or quatro cards. The old one didn't do SLI so you have 25% more gaming power than a single GeForce Titan Black with Dual D700's in crossfire. You can get 3 times more storage throughput with 24gb/s speeds, more pcie cards with expansion boxes etc. it's quieter, more power efficient, AND it's cheaper on a component level.

I want some of what you're smoking.

Please link us to this mythical Mac Pro that can run 17 Titan Blacks via TB.

So 17 Titan Blacks running through 8 PCIE 2.0 lanes? Sounds like moving lake Michigan through a garden hose.

As far as I know, there isn't a single TB box that claims GPU support. Much less the ability to run 17 Titan Blacks.

And I can run SLI in old Mac Pro. In fact, I have run 3 @ Titans in Tri-SLI, try that in nMP. In fact I was able to get a 97% in 3D Mark that way, while maxed out nMP with D700s fell by the wayside at 93%. cMP can do Crossfire with no hacks, and SLI with a simple hack.

If you are going to post emotional rants, try sprinkling in a few actual facts.

 

[fuchsdh]

Yeah, but G4s were both power-hungry and gutless, G5s performed like workstations.

Yeah, G4s and G5s were getting clocked by Intel boxes. That's why Apple switched, and it was the right decision. Doesn't change that Intel's chips are really, really expensive though.

There is nothing magical about the GoPro... They save in standard h264 format. You can edit it with a $95.00us linear editor like VideoRedo and since the resulting file is in the same format it's a straight copy, so no compression. It takes about 5 minutes to process a 2 hours GoPro HD video.

This is not really relevant to the thread at hand, but I hope you do realize that "saving a H.264 file" from these editors is another level of compression, right, not a straight copy. You're compressing once in camera, and then again on export.

 

[goMac]

This is not really relevant to the thread at hand, but I hope you do realize that "saving a H.264 file" from these editors is another level of compression, right, not a straight copy. You're compressing once in camera, and then again on export.

Yeah, H.264 is actually NOT an editing format. It can't even really be edited in place.

Anything that records in H.264 is really meant for posting right to Facebook, not really serious video editing. At the very least, for an editor app to handle H.264, it's got to be transcoded. Bleh.

That's why QuickTime X was such a joke for editors. "We've rebuilt the pipeline on top of H.264!" Not a great plan.

 

[MacProCard]

Because there are many other competing products in this emerging market you're creating that are more portable (which seems to big your main argument) and/or cheaper.

What is so unique to the nMP and FCPX that can't be done on a smaller/cheaper device?

Yeah, and Apple doesn't want to sell as many of these as they can. lol

BTW, I make money with technology so I don't have to worry about cost. I get to write it off. LOL

 

[handsome pete]

Yeah, and Apple doesn't want to sell as many of these as they can. lol

BTW, I make money with technology so I don't have to worry about cost. I get to write it off. LOL

So do I. What's your point? What does that have to do with the average consumer you've been talking about?

 

[reco2011]

You're wrong on this. With to H264, AVCHD, etc.... you can pretty much edit that on anything from a laptop to a desktop. Hell, you can even edit some of that on an iPad. But the film/video industry isn't typically shooting in H.264 or AVCHD. We are shooting RAW 4K/5K/6K and even some 8K footage which has way more overhead than any of the cheap consumer/prosumer codecs. There isn't another platform on the market today that can stream RAW 4K REDcam footage in realtime. Yet, the nMP certainly can... without a hiccup.

There's nothing unique about the nMP which enables it to do so. It uses the same components available to every one else.

 

[thesimplelogic]

3. Non user replaceable parts
]

RAM is replaceable. Storage is becoming replaceable. The processor is replaceable, and is replaceable now. Graphics COULD become replaceable.