Is the nMP an appliance?

[flat five]

..in relation to this thread:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1665155/

vr reply:
It's clear from your ongoing dialog that you don't understand Apple. Apple increasingly views computers as appliances... that are replaced, not upgraded. The new Mac Pro is an obvious step further down this path.
-------

that may be true but what happens when an 'upgraded' ssd can be sold for the same cost as selling 2 iPhones?

i think much of the confusion (and maybe why i keep trying to explain the position) in the other thread (though i personally can avoid another type of confusion which arose in that thread.. which i'll avoid in this one) is that it feels as if people think i'm arguing on behalf of or in defense of apple corp.. and you're arguing anti-apple in the sense that they are robbing you of the ability to prolong the life of your computers in a cheaper manner..

i get what you're saying- i promise you i do and i agree with the reasonings why that upsets you.. it upsets me too.. and i'm not at all trying to defend or justify apple's behavior..

the part i don't think i'm getting across is that i'm also arguing on the same side of the fence as you all are.. it's just that i'm saying it's actually worse than you all are making it out to be.. i'm saying apple will make even more money off you than if they didn't allow upgrades.. as in: upgrades ≠ cheaper user experience.. this nmp is entirely user upgradeable and you are going to spend more money on your computers in the next decade because of it..

again, i understand what you guys keep telling me.. but, when i read your responses, the tone of them do not correspond with the message.. meaning- your arguments towards me could be interpreted/generalized as "apple treats their customers better than how you suggest.. there's no way they would try to gouge you for the amount of money you're claiming they are"

i don't feel there should be much of an "is apple good or bad" underlay in the thread at all.. because we're all arguing they're bad.. it's the degree of badness we're talking about

the question (at least the one i keep asking) is explain how buying 3 computers in the next decade will be more expensive than selling the mac pro in a form which allows a user to buy and upgrade parts..

because the way i see it, apple would be doing you a favor by selling you a computer which lasts three years.. under that set up, i would spend $9g (three base models) in the next ten years on my computers and they will always be under warranty.. in an upgradeable environment, i will spend $8000 right off the bat.. (as in 2@ 6core base instead of the 3@quad config).. i'll likely be more inclined to 'invest' in larger ssds since they are 'mine' and not soldered to the computer.. there's $2000 or so.. based off my current track record of of parts blowing out of warranty, i'll be buying at least 4 new gpus (and possibly 8 depending on circumstance)..
i figure i'll spend at least 1.5x $ under an upgradable scenario vs. closed workstation.

do a similar exercise yourself and see what you come up with -or- how you truly foresee yourself spending in the next decade under the two scenarios. (upgradable vs. non)

then also realize most of the stuff you'll be upgrading with are now ,or very soon to be, apple products.. your 1TB will no longer be different to their bottom line than a macbook air is (i bet the apple ssds will even get their own fancy nAme® soon enough).. they want to sell you parts.. they want you to upgrade this computer..

(and they cut you off after 5 years via software.. there's no need for them to use hardware as a means to force you back into the circle.. the simplest and most effective way to make hardware obsolete is via the software required to use it.)

i think if we could get past this hurdle then we could steer it back towards the design of the computer and analyze it in a different light.. it's a genius design.. genius.. in more ways than one..

 

[scottsjack]

OK I get it. You're trying to sell yourself on the new Mac Pro.

If you want one go get one when they ship. No big deal.

 

[mpantone]

And if you're happy while you own the computer, everything is good.

Enjoy your new Mac Pro!

 

[OS6-OSX]

Yes it is an appliance! Here is a photo of the prototype:
On the left, posts about it are placed inside and go around and around. A small widow has been placed on this model so one can press their nose against it as they view.
On the right, is a model in which liquid and soap is used. The posts in this model are pro and con nMP. And like they say it will all come out in the wash!

 

[Gav Mack]

I wake up to find out not only are we on top of the convicts with the cricket but now that your old thread has been locked you've changed tack ever so slightly...

Methinks you somehow liked the attention your posts had before

 

[flat five]

you've changed tack ever so slightly...

correct
i'm no longer going to discuss people's personalities.. it actually is off topic you know

 

[mcnallym]

Enterprise IT back in the 90's was using Desktops like you can now use the nMP. Any issue with the machine then simply disconnect the peripherals, plonk down new nMP and then reconnect peripherals.
Take nMP away to look at why wrong/re-image and redeploy for next user.

How much easier is that then having to deal with a user that is having issues, open up the case and take out those internal storage devices, that you need to transfer to the new unit, or do the restore from backup. all the time the user isn't working.

For a lot of those users then the storage is off on the network anyway in Enterprise.

User needs more power, again can swiftly get a more powerful nMP in place, without having to do more then disconnect and reconnect the externals. In this environment then how much will there be connected locally.

Where I work, then the desktop/laptop(Windows Machines) is rebooted and rebuilt from an SCCM system. You go off for coffee/lunch come back and is ready for you. Work has a no data on Laptop/Desktop so if you lose then why wasn't it stored on the network share.

In that type of environment which is where I would see the nMP targeted these days then the nMP makes perfect sense.

I have never seen a users machine upgraded at work ( beyond RAM ) and I have been working since Jan 97. Instead a machine is brought along that is more powerful and the old one taken away. That may then if possible be redeployed to someone else if still viable or just recycled off if too old.

Into that type of deployment then the nMP fits quite well.

My MacPro is used at home for Personal Use, not Business, and when I saw the nMP preview I got in on a second hand 2010 that then upgraded to what is in the sig below. I can tell that the nMP isn't really aimed at me.

Having said that I purchased the Mac Pro second hand, Apple $0
The SSD's HDD, Sonnet SSD Cards and GPU, Apple $0
If any of those breaks then wouldn't be spending the money with Apple to replace them either.

It isn't hard to see the benefit to Apple here in turning the nMP and the other machines into closed out units that you replace rather then upgrade, when you spend the money then you spend the money with Apple.

Remember the audience on the forums, and the people that have a different opinion to yours are a lot of people that will buy a base Mac Pro, then go 3rd Party on upgrading CPU's, RAM, Storage etc, flash 4,1 to 5,1 for additional CPU support, adding additional PSU in Optical Bay to drive more powerful GPU's, and have maxed out the potential on the existing Mac Pro, even working with putting cards in that Apple haven't bothered with to extend and maximise there Mac Pro unit, and they can contain in it a single enclosure.

For those people then the nMP is a disaster as from what we have seen then looks like other then RAM ( and possibly storage ) will be a buy at start what you need and replace when you need more power. You may get 3rd parties offering for the Storage but I would be surprised if GPU's become available from 3rd Party. When just needed an EFI rather then BIOS there wasn't a flood of offerings was there.

As such it does make sense to think of the nMP as an Appliance, you buy the one you need, use it when you need more power you swap out for a more powerful one.

 

[flat five]

Enterprise IT back in the 90's was using Desktops like you can now use the nMP. Any issue with the machine then simply disconnect the peripherals, plonk down new nMP and then reconnect peripherals.
Take nMP away to look at why wrong/re-image and redeploy for next user.

How much easier is that then having to deal with a user that is having issues, open up the case and take out those internal storage devices, that you need to transfer to the new unit, or do the restore from backup. all the time the user isn't working.

For a lot of those users then the storage is off on the network anyway in Enterprise.

User needs more power, again can swiftly get a more powerful nMP in place, without having to do more then disconnect and reconnect the externals. In this environment then how much will there be connected locally.

Where I work, then the desktop/laptop(Windows Machines) is rebooted and rebuilt from an SCCM system. You go off for coffee/lunch come back and is ready for you. Work has a no data on Laptop/Desktop so if you lose then why wasn't it stored on the network share.

In that type of environment which is where I would see the nMP targeted these days then the nMP makes perfect sense.

I have never seen a users machine upgraded at work ( beyond RAM ) and I have been working since Jan 97. Instead a machine is brought along that is more powerful and the old one taken away. That may then if possible be redeployed to someone else if still viable or just recycled off if too old.

Into that type of deployment then the nMP fits quite well.

yes, i agree the nmp makes perfect sense in the environment you describe.. at the same time, i believe its design is much more versatile than that and can be adapted to many different scenarios ranging from hobbyist to small business to big business.. there isn't really any "well, this computer is clearly aimed at companies with 100 computer desks" -or- "this computer is clearly aimed at Johnny's Graphic Design".. it's aimed at nearly anybody or any organization wanting or needing a powerful computer.

*(and sorry about my habit of adding more details than necessary.. all i'm trying to say is that i agree with what you wrote)

Having said that I purchased the Mac Pro second hand, Apple $0
The SSD's HDD, Sonnet SSD Cards and GPU, Apple $0
If any of those breaks then wouldn't be spending the money with Apple to replace them either.

exactly.
try that in 3 years from now with a nmp and you will be paying apple for all those upgrades.. that's sort of the whole point i'm trying to make here.. apple wants the money that you're spending on upgrading the computer.. the reason apple made $0 off of your upgrades is because any old company's drives fit/work inside the 4,1(?) you bought.. the new design uses proprietary parts so you can no longer use any ol part.. the '$0' you have listed as the amount you've paid to apple for your upgrades will read '$2000' the next time you go the path of buying a 2nd hand macpro.

It isn't hard to see the benefit to Apple here in turning the nMP and the other machines into closed out units that you replace rather then upgrade, when you spend the money then you spend the money with Apple.

see above

Remember the audience on the forums, and the people that have a different opinion to yours are a lot of people that will buy a base Mac Pro, then go 3rd Party on upgrading CPU's, RAM, Storage etc, flash 4,1 to 5,1 for additional CPU support, adding additional PSU in Optical Bay to drive more powerful GPU's, and have maxed out the potential on the existing Mac Pro, even working with putting cards in that Apple haven't bothered with to extend and maximise there Mac Pro unit, and they can contain in it a single enclosure.

i feel like i'm aware of the audience here and that i'm speaking directly to them and their habits.. they will continue to be able to do all those things.. it's just that it's going to cost more than it has with the previous design and much more difficult to use non-licensed and non-supported products.. the system is closing up for sure.. but not because of what type of parts may/may not be added to the computer.. rather- it's way more closed now because apple has maneuvered into the position which gives them far greater control over where the buyer's money goes.. (it will go to them now instead of seagate or whoever)

For those people then the nMP is a disaster as from what we have seen then looks like other then RAM ( and possibly storage ) will be a buy at start what you need and replace when you need more power.

that really brings it back around to what started all of this to begin with.. all this other crap i'm saying is only meant to be supporting arguments to one observation.. what we actually see when we look at the nmp is that all of the components are arranged/assembled in a way which is entirely user serviceable..
if it were a closed off system (meaning- buy what you want at time of purchase and never change anything again), the design would look much different. (for one- the most obvious- there definitely wouldn't be an access latch on it)

when you look at the layout/design of the nmp, does it say to you "i am a closed computer - you can not upgrade me"?

 

[LongSticks]

When you look at the market value as well.....

Enterprise IT back in the 90's was using Desktops like you can now use the nMP. Any issue with the machine then simply disconnect the peripherals, plonk down new nMP and then reconnect peripherals.
Take nMP away to look at why wrong/re-image and redeploy for next user.

How much easier is that then having to deal with a user that is having issues, open up the case and take out those internal storage devices, that you need to transfer to the new unit, or do the restore from backup. all the time the user isn't working.

For a lot of those users then the storage is off on the network anyway in Enterprise.

User needs more power, again can swiftly get a more powerful nMP in place, without having to do more then disconnect and reconnect the externals. In this environment then how much will there be connected locally.

Where I work, then the desktop/laptop(Windows Machines) is rebooted and rebuilt from an SCCM system. You go off for coffee/lunch come back and is ready for you. Work has a no data on Laptop/Desktop so if you lose then why wasn't it stored on the network share.

In that type of environment which is where I would see the nMP targeted these days then the nMP makes perfect sense.

I have never seen a users machine upgraded at work ( beyond RAM ) and I have been working since Jan 97. Instead a machine is brought along that is more powerful and the old one taken away. That may then if possible be redeployed to someone else if still viable or just recycled off if too old.

Into that type of deployment then the nMP fits quite well.

My MacPro is used at home for Personal Use, not Business, and when I saw the nMP preview I got in on a second hand 2010 that then upgraded to what is in the sig below. I can tell that the nMP isn't really aimed at me.

Having said that I purchased the Mac Pro second hand, Apple $0
The SSD's HDD, Sonnet SSD Cards and GPU, Apple $0
If any of those breaks then wouldn't be spending the money with Apple to replace them either.

It isn't hard to see the benefit to Apple here in turning the nMP and the other machines into closed out units that you replace rather then upgrade, when you spend the money then you spend the money with Apple.

Remember the audience on the forums, and the people that have a different opinion to yours are a lot of people that will buy a base Mac Pro, then go 3rd Party on upgrading CPU's, RAM, Storage etc, flash 4,1 to 5,1 for additional CPU support, adding additional PSU in Optical Bay to drive more powerful GPU's, and have maxed out the potential on the existing Mac Pro, even working with putting cards in that Apple haven't bothered with to extend and maximise there Mac Pro unit, and they can contain in it a single enclosure.

For those people then the nMP is a disaster as from what we have seen then looks like other then RAM ( and possibly storage ) will be a buy at start what you need and replace when you need more power. You may get 3rd parties offering for the Storage but I would be surprised if GPU's become available from 3rd Party. When just needed an EFI rather then BIOS there wasn't a flood of offerings was there.

As such it does make sense to think of the nMP as an Appliance, you buy the one you need, use it when you need more power you swap out for a more powerful one.

Another side to this and when you look at the market value, you may see 3rd parties back the nMP parts market to help all sides!

Maybe we are looking at this slightly too narrowly!

Most of the recent discussion in the forum has quite rightly been based on the home and small business market modding existing systems to extend the life of there machines; and this no longer being financially viable. I agree to a large degree with the extent of the pain being felt as Apple is setting sail from this market on to the corporate Pro market. It is unfortunate.

This is what Apple see's as the next market place for the Pro and this can be seen in the choice of Mari to demo the nMP at WWDC. Maybe!?

From MaximumPC:

According to JPR, the computer graphics hardware market will exceed $124 billion by 2016, up from an expected $107 billion in 2013, which itself is up from $93 billion in 2010.

"The sharp curtailment of household and corporate spending during the recession has resulted in a renewed desire among consumers and businesses to begin increasing spending on the latest graphics software and hardware platforms," JPR says. "We will see the development of traditional segments like CAD/CAM expand as new design approaches in automotive, aerospace, and architecture are adopted. Visualization, a market that has been almost dormant for the past few years, is now poised for significant growth due to the availability of more powerful and less expensive visualization technologies."

Workstations and monitors represent the largest areas of growth in the computer graphics industry, followed by mobile coming in a "strong third." As for gaming PC sales, JPR notes a 3.16 percent decline compared to last year, marking the segment as the lone exception. However, gaming PC sales will pick up over the coming years, growing from $17.79 billion in 2013 to $20.77 billion in 2016.

Personally I can see the Steam box biting in big time to the Gaming PC market as well, if it's as good as they say it is! Have a look at the Xi3 Piston to see how the gaming market and the internal cards and there size may develop!

Maybe Apple are again ahead of the market a little, offering dual GPU out of the box and off of the shelf! The first "major" player to do so!

 

[mcnallym]

The point I was making was that you can quickly swap out an nMP for a new one, I already do this with my mini 2009 and DroboPro. ALL of my data other then Mail, ( all of which is web based / iCloud so stored on the Internet anyway )
The mini has been rebuilt each time, 10.5 to 10.6 to 10.7 to 10.8, I simply re-install the OSX onto the mini and then attach the Drobo, and point iTunes and Elgato at the directory on the Drobo volume. I could easily replace the mini 2009 with a 2012 and work in the same way, or if the mini loses FW then get a Thunderbolt to FW adapter.

Can use the nMP and Thunderbolt peripherals the same way no matter what size organisation you are which is what I was saying.

The whole point people are making about it with it being proprietary parts that are only available from Apple. ( if Apple choose to make them available ) is that there won't be the options to get third party products in and have to pay Apple for parts, if they are made available.

In 2017 I have a 3 year old nMP ( by the time shipping to users will be 2014) that is starting to get slow.

As you say the parts are proprietary and no 3rd Party options available. ( Apple are forcing you to buy there products to upgrade with, otherwise I spend my money elsewhere )

Option 1: Apple can sell me a whole new nMP,

Nice and Simple for Apple, no need to do anything about distributing parts, additional retail, dealing with users trying to upgrade.

Option 2: Apple can make available to me additional parts that extend the life of my machine, thus delaying my spending the money on a whole new machine. They also have to then distribute those parts out to retail, or ship to users separately to those users if sell online.

Either way Apple get my money, one requires more effort and money investment from them however then the other. It is simply cheaper and easier for Apple to sell me a whole new nMP then it is to sell me parts, it also ships more units

At that point why would Apple bother to make those parts available, as just costs them more to get your money, and if they don't make parts available where do I buy them from to upgrade, so I am forced to buy a new nMP anyway.

The only part I would say will definitely be upgradable is the RAM which is using standard RAM slots anyway, and possibly storage if someone decides is worthwhile making the parts available for the connector.

Apple will still be able to replace parts, so you have to be able to disassemble the parts, otherwise if a GPU card broke would have to replace the whole thing. That doesn't mean that the end user will be able to source upgrade parts.

 

[flat five]

The only part I would say will definitely be upgradable is the RAM which is using standard RAM slots anyway, and possibly storage if someone decides is worthwhile making the parts available for the connector.

i feel as if you're saying the only part which will be user upgradeable is the ram is because apple has clearly told you this is the case..

i don't feel as if you're saying the only part which will be user upgradeable is the ram because you've looked at the design of the computer and have concluded, based on the design alone, that it appears the only thing you can remove/replace is the ram..

look at the pictures- forget about any preconceived notions about costs and/or which type of system will make more money for apple.

personally, when i do that, the part which appears easiest to swap at first glance is the SSD (well, the two internal ssds).. the ram takes some figuring out as they've introduced a new mount/method for swapping it (which is outlined in the other thread)

what do you see if you look at the design for the sake of the design? does it look like the ram is user replaceable? does it look like the drive is user replaceable? does it look like the gpu is user replaceable? does it look like the cpu is user replaceable?

 

[AidenShaw]

when you look at the layout/design of the nmp, does it say to you "i am a closed computer - you can not upgrade me"?

Except for RAM, that's what it says to me.

We'll have to wait for the Ifixit teardown to understand if it's easily taken apart and reassembled.

If so, then all we need to do is wait for Apple to sell the upgraded CPU/GPU boards.

 

[flat five]

Except for RAM, that's what it says to me.

We'll have to wait for the Ifixit teardown to understand if it's easily taken apart and reassembled.

a ram only upgrade will be a score of maybe 2 or 3 out of ten.. for the record, i'm thinking the teardown score will be 8+/10 ease..

If so, then all we need to do is wait for Apple to sell the upgraded CPU/GPU boards.

if and when we get to that point, it looks as if the cpu itself will be replaceable but the gpu will require the whole board to be replaced.. (in other words- the same way it is on the mp1).
the gpu processor is on the backside of the board directly behind the ⭕️ in the middle of the ❌-bracket.. the vram then surrounds the graphic processor in a diamond pattern and it appears it will be soldered to the board (and you can see this soldered diamond pattern of the vram on the front side of the board)..
anyway, just my prediction with no intent other than guessing/analyzing for the fun of it.

 

[wallysb01]

a ram only upgrade will be a score of maybe 2 or 3 out of ten.. for the record, i'm thinking the teardown score will be 8+/10 ease..

Unlikely. If you can only replace RAM and SSD, its going to be in the 3-4 range. And, while its probable, its not certain the SSD will be replacable. And again, by replace I mean buy it from a 3rd party retailer and put it in yourself.

Now, the access to the CPU and GPU seems reasonable, but we don't know for sure you can actually get the CPU out and another one in without damaging anything. Its possible, but this seems unlikely. Remember, its technically possible to swap the CPUs in the 2009 DP MP, but iFixit bent the pins when trying, so it has to be EASY to be a plus. Otherwise, you're spending $1000 on a CPU upgrade you have a reasonable chance of having to throw in the trash, which means you should probably just buy the new computer with a CPU upgrade already inside.

Now for the GPU it very unlikely you're going to find 3rd party retailers selling them, or them sold seperately from Apple, even if its easy to make the swap yourself.

The PSU is about 100% chance for no replacement as there gets.

If each component scores a point, then the breakdown, probabalistically, looks something like this to me:

RAM: 100% * 1 point
SSD: 90% *1 point
CPU: 25% * 1 point
GPU: 5% * 1 point
PSU: 0% * 1 point

So that adds up to about a 2.2 out of 5. Then with iFixit general accessability, use of standard tools and ease of additions are taken into account too. And to the Mac Pros credit, things seem pretty easy access, so maybe thats another 2 points. However, you can't add a second hard drive, nor are their open PCIe slots. So its missing out of those things, which even if it scores perfect on everything else, you really can't get above an 8.

Realistic range for the new Mac Pro is probably from 4-6, maybe 7, but I'd put the mean expectancy at 5.

Look at it like this. The iMac scored a 5: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Intel+27-Inch+EMC+2639+Teardown/17828

Major notes:

RAM is replacable (nMP same)
CPU is replacable (not known yet for nMP but seems unlikely to me)
A second hard drive can be added (not possible in nMP)
Compenents are easy to access (same in nMP)
You can't remove the glass from the LCD (NA)
glue/tape issues (probably not the same)

GPU/PSU issues aren't mentioned in the iMac because it isn't a workstation, but I don't see those as points in the nMP favor, anyway. So, there are a couple of things similar, a couple better and a couple worse in the above list. Plus, the nMP isn't adding anything else in the GPU/PSU department....so, I predict it will get roughly the same score....

 

[AidenShaw]

CPU is replacable (not known yet for nMP but seems unlikely to me).

Xeon E5-****v2 only come in socketed versions - so the CPU array is most likely in a socket.

Apple would have to go out of their way to add a proprietary mounting scheme instead of a socket.

The question is not one of absolute feasibility, but one of whether a reasonably skilled user could remove the motherboard from the case, replace the CPU with another E5-****v2 or compatible part, and *successfully* reassemble it with the proper thermal connection to the almighty "thermal core".

And of course, Apple will try to make sure that the answer to that question is "no".

 

[flat five]

Unlikely. If you can only replace RAM and SSD,
[...]
....so, I predict it will get roughly the same score....

good post wally.. thanks for the breakdown. i usually don't follow ifixit other than their mbp teardowns so i don't actually have much of a clue about how their ranking system works but what you've written seems reasonable.

something about the ssd is i'm fairly convinced there will be a second drive inside the machine (and yes, i realize what i think carries no weight around here ).. but i can't help but think it anyways.. i brought this up somewhere around the middle of the other thread but i'll repost here..


------------------
something i noticed about the gpu boards is that there's a right one and left one (as in uniquely right and uniquely left).. they're more/less mirrors of each other(all of the individual components aren't) and you can't put a left one on the right side.. (look at the two gnd and 12v screws)..

so if down the road you're able to swap gpus, you'll be buying a right or left (or pair) if it's the whole board which is replaceable.

something interesting though is the white dot screw hole on the left panel.. same hole which the ssd on the right is using but why would they put a hole in the left one seeing how it's unique? so maybe 2 ssds in the future

[edit.. also just noticed the left one is labeled 'A' and the right 'B' ]


[edit2].. but i suppose the boards could of been cut identical and the holes are drilled prior to mounting components on opposite sides.. hence the reason for the drive hole on the left panel.
?

------
actually, now i'm sort of convinced there will be a second drive there.
'balance' certainly factored into the process in most other areas and i doubt they chose to leave it like this..
the one ssd pictures look similar to the 3 sticks of ram they give you with the $3g model.. doesn't make sense (design wise)
------

..there does appear to be an available socket.

------------------------

so those pictures along with the recently released iMac (previous iMac's had the same thing in them but the 2nd connector would only be added if a user pre-bought a fusion drive.. the latest imac ships with both connectors regardless of what drive config is bought at original purchase).. leads me to believe there will certainly be a 2nd ssd in the nmp.. to the point if there was the tiniest bit of additional evidence to speculate on, i'd submit to the news eds for consideration of a front page run.. it seems that likely in my mind at least.

i'm not sure if a 2nd ssd will affect an ifixit score but that's possible too.. imac got extra points for the ability (rather-it received less points on the previous models because it was bto option only.)

 

[AidenShaw]

something about the ssd is i'm fairly convinced there will be a second drive inside the machine

Surely you've been around long enough to know that what "Apple can do" and what "Apple does" are often not connected.

If Apple were to add an option for a second internal PCIe disk (assuming that the PCIe lanes aren't already over-subscribed), then some percentage of customers would be happy with two internal PCIe drives and wouldn't have to buy T-Bolt external storage.

...which would mean fewer T-Bolt external storage boxes sold. I don't need to explain the significance of that....

 

[flat five]

Xeon E5-****v2 only come in socketed versions - so the CPU array is most likely in a socket.

Apple would have to go out of their way to add a proprietary mounting scheme instead of a socket.

The question is not one of absolute feasibility, but one of whether a reasonably skilled user could remove the motherboard from the case, replace the CPU with another E5-****v2 or compatible part, and *successfully* reassemble it with the proper thermal connection to the almighty "thermal core".

And of course, Apple will try to make sure that the answer to that question is "no".

i haven't really seen many pictures that give much insight into how the cpu is actually in there.. here's one (i actually think it's a rendering along with all the other official apple promos so far) which doesn't reveal much but maybe someone can see something in it?

for reference, the image is the other side of this board which we've seen a lot of:

apple animated this board spinning around then gave a section view of the bottom of the board (if you look at the bottom of the picture, you'll see a piece of the nmp body is missing which allows us to see the connector at the bottom edge of the board)..

we can also see in this picture a better explanation of the 8 screws & bracket system that we see on the front side of the board.. it looks like 4 of the screws are going to be used as a means to sandwich(?) the cpu inside of this metal gizmo then the other 4 screws are used as a means to attach to the heat sink??

[edit] just guessing some more but it's hard to imagine if the cpu is replaceable that we'll be doing it with the computer in an upright position.. i also don't think they'll expect people to lay the computer horizontally.. maybe the metal 8 screw whatchamacallit is a shuttle of sorts-- meaning, you replace/service the cpu in the shuttle on a flat table then mount that assembly to the heat sink itself..??

----------

Surely you've been around long enough to know that what "Apple can do" and what "Apple does" are often not connected.

If Apple were to add an option for a second internal PCIe disk (assuming that the PCIe lanes aren't already over-subscribed), then some percentage of customers would be happy with two internal PCIe drives and wouldn't have to buy T-Bolt external storage.

...which would mean fewer T-Bolt external storage boxes sold. I don't need to explain the significance of that....

ha. well.. that's sort of a different topic but there is a humor in it.. IF there is a second drive inside and we actually start pricing these things out, the argument is going to be FOR thunderbolt due to how much cheaper it is to add storage outside of the computer as opposed to inside

(as in- compare prices of hypothetical 2x 1TB storage inside vs 2TB storage outside.. granted, the drives inside will be, i assume, capable of much greater speeds)

 

[AidenShaw]

i haven't really seen many pictures that give much insight into how the cpu is actually in there..

Yet that hasn't stopped you from making hundreds of posts about upgrading this vaporware system.

And, as I said, it's not only if the Xeon can be replaced, but whether a skilled amateur can disassemble the Mac Mini Pro, replace something, and reassemble it with proper contact with the almighty thermal core.

For example, and something that I've posted before, quite some time ago I bought several dozen Dothan-based Latitudes and ThinkPads. Six or eight months later, some of my team members had to develop and test x64 software. The Dothans were x86 only - but everything was compatible with x64 Yonahs. I found a bunch of Yonahs on eBay and bought them. The laptops, however, used some funky "aluminum foam" bits to thermally couple the CPU package to the liquid cooled thermal system. These were single use parts - even if you removed the socketed CPU and replaced the same CPU you needed to put a new "thermal transfer" pad (the "aluminum foam" bit) in - the old one might not make the proper thermal connection. Fortunately, Dell sold the "thermal pads" as independent SKUs and I used them for both the Latitudes and the ThinkPads.

This is something that the "Internet experts" who make random claims about upgradeability won't understand.

 

[flat five]

From MaximumPC:

According to JPR, the computer graphics hardware market will exceed $124 billion by 2016, up from an expected $107 billion in 2013, which itself is up from $93 billion in 2010.

"The sharp curtailment of household and corporate spending during the recession has resulted in a renewed desire among consumers and businesses to begin increasing spending on the latest graphics software and hardware platforms," JPR says. "We will see the development of traditional segments like CAD/CAM expand as new design approaches in automotive, aerospace, and architecture are adopted. Visualization, a market that has been almost dormant for the past few years, is now poised for significant growth due to the availability of more powerful and less expensive visualization technologies."

Workstations and monitors represent the largest areas of growth in the computer graphics industry, followed by mobile coming in a "strong third." As for gaming PC sales, JPR notes a 3.16 percent decline compared to last year, marking the segment as the lone exception. However, gaming PC sales will pick up over the coming years, growing from $17.79 billion in 2013 to $20.77 billion in 2016.

Personally I can see the Steam box biting in big time to the Gaming PC market as well, if it's as good as they say it is! Have a look at the Xi3 Piston to see how the gaming market and the internal cards and there size may develop!

Maybe Apple are again ahead of the market a little, offering dual GPU out of the box and off of the shelf! The first "major" player to do so!

hey longsticks, thanks for that article snip.. it backs up a lot of what i've been noticing in my specific use realms (cad/cam as well as visualization).. i do believe we'll see/are seeing an increased growth in the industry within the past 4-5 years and the developers are moving from experimenting with gpgpu to truly implementing it in their software.. what you said about 'maybe apple is a little ahead of the market'.. i also believe that and think they're going to catch a nice size chunk of the billion$ being projected..

I agree to a large degree with the extent of the pain being felt as Apple is setting sail from this market on to the corporate Pro market. It is unfortunate.

with this, i can pretty much only suggest we wait a little longer before making the assessment.. to me, it seems as if the nmp will cover a large swath of user scenarios and i see no need to pigeonhole it into a 'corporate pro market' realm just yet.. i think a lot of different types of users are going to like it.

 

[flat five]

Yet that hasn't stopped you from making hundreds of posts about upgrading this vaporware system.

it's the screws.. those are what say 'you can service this area' (cpu).. i'm sorry if it's too simple of a reason but that is why it's obvious (yes, completely obvious) that the part is able to be serviced as opposed to disposal only.. if you see those screws being in those places with the (over)size heads etc as a happenstance of the manufacturing process alone then i don't think you're giving the designers/engineers of the computer enough credit..

And, as I said, it's not only if the Xeon can be replaced, but whether a skilled amateur can disassemble the Mac Mini Pro, replace something, and reassemble it with proper contact with the almighty thermal core.

For example, and something that I've posted before, quite some time ago I bought several dozen Dothan-based Latitudes and ThinkPads. Six or eight months later, some of my team members had to develop and test x64 software. The Dothans were x86 only - but everything was compatible with x64 Yonahs. I found a bunch of Yonahs on eBay and bought them. The laptops, however, used some funky "aluminum foam" bits to thermally couple the CPU package to the liquid cooled thermal system. These were single use parts - even if you removed the socketed CPU and replaced the same CPU you needed to put a new "thermal transfer" pad (the "aluminum foam" bit) in - the old one might not make the proper thermal connection. Fortunately, Dell sold the "thermal pads" as independent SKUs and I used them for both the Latitudes and the ThinkPads.

This is something that the "Internet experts" who make random claims about upgradeability won't understand.

i had to read that two times just to figure out what you are talking about (meaning, you're discussing things which very few people actually know about).
i don't think very many people, even power users, actually swap cpus and it's generally the ubergeeks (ie- you )who mess with it.. and i'm willing to bet they designed this part of the computer with a very small group in mind.. and that you guys are going to like what they have come up with.. only time will tell.
i hope it's not coming off as me suggesting "apple has revolutionized the cpu" or whatever.. it's the same thing as it's always been only slightly tweaked.. once the teardown happens, we'll see if it's going to be harder to switch than a 2009 or if it's easier to switch.. or if ifixit bends pins..
my point is that it's obviously switchable and that's all.

 

[AidenShaw]

it's the screws.. those are what say 'you can service this area' (cpu)...

G'day.

 

[flat five]

G'day.

out of curiosity- when it turns out the cpu is swappable, is my reasoning going to be just as stupid to you then as it is now?

 

[flat five]

"it's the screws.. those are what say 'you can service this area' (cpu).. i'm sorry if it's too simple of a reason but that is why it's obvious (yes, completely obvious) that the part is able to be serviced as opposed to disposal only"

G'day.

and @aiden.. i get what you're saying and i feel you are completely experienced enough to be making the assessments you are.. you are much more knowledgeable than me when it comes to computer hardware.

thing is, i'm looking at it from a different field/background.. i'm not looking at it in the same way you are.. i'm looking at it from a design perspective..

but if you think what i said about screws telling you which parts are serviceable is stupid, i'll go one step further which will probably have you rofling..

zoom out and put the shell on.. don't even look at the parts inside.
look at the access latch

from a design perspective, that one single features tells you this computer is user serviceable.. i'm sorry but yes, it really is that simple.

 

[AidenShaw]

out of curiosity- when it turns out the cpu is swappable, is my reasoning going to be just as stupid to you then as it is now?

Yes - your reasoning is flawed.

You're boldly making claims without ever even having seen a picture of the CPU in the Mac Mini Pro.

I've never said that it *won't* be swappable -- I've brought up points which might lead to it not being user swappable.

You're being reckless, I'm being cautious.