Is the nMP an appliance?

[AidenShaw]

you're the EveryReady bunny - you keep on running and running

You are using gibibits of bandwidth to repeat again and again a message that's basically:

Look! It's put together with screws. Of course it's upgradeable.​

If you can't get better components to screw it back together, or if the techniques and tools necessary to successfully reassemble it are beyond the skilled tinkerer's scope - it's not "upgradeable" in the view of most people.

To be "user upgradeable", you need both:

• reasonable access to remove and replace component parts
• a supply source for updated/improved component parts

All of your pictures tell us that one might have to completely disassemble the entire trash can to replace any part - and that all of the parts (save the RAM DIMMs) are proprietary Apple parts.

Answer? It's an appliance. The upgrade path is to drag your current Mac Mini Pro to the trashcan, and buy a new one.

 

[slughead]

Every school of thought is like a man who has talked to himself for a hundred years and is delighted with his own mind, however stupid it may be. --J.W. Goethe

 

[flat five]

You are using gibibits of bandwidth to repeat again and again a message that's basically:

Look! It's put together with screws. Of course it's upgradeable.​

If you can't get better components to screw it back together, or if the techniques and tools necessary to successfully reassemble it are beyond the skilled tinkerer's scope - it's not "upgradeable" in the view of most people.

To be "user upgradeable", you need both:

• reasonable access to remove and replace component parts
• a supply source for updated/improved component parts

All of your pictures tell us that one might have to completely disassemble the entire trash can to replace any part - and that all of the parts (save the RAM DIMMs) are proprietary Apple parts.

Answer? It's an appliance. The upgrade path is to drag your current Mac Mini Pro to the trashcan, and buy a new one.

<sigh>
all of my pictures so far are showing you that no, the components are easily accessible and you don't need to do a lot of disassembly.. you do less disassembly than with the mp1.. and the two tools listed so far are a screwdriver and your thumb..

if you're getting that (bolded) from these pictures and descriptions then i'm at a loss for words.. i've learned i do not know how to communicate.. (well, i've sorta always know about that tweak )

 

[flat five]

another possibility-


looking at the left side of the photo.
the i/o panel stays in place.. you lift vertically (notice the vertical clearance-- you can see through the computer here) to unplug the circuit board then bring it out through the ram window..

so far so good except this would mean the secondary plate on the heat sink would be coming out too (because the board is screwed to it through the pegs).. which also means that secondary plate isn't directly attached to the core in the location of the 4 outer screws..

the only thing keeping me from saying no way on this are the two largish holes in the core as shown in the second image on the last page.. at first i thought those were for the gpu power supply but it appears those screws are higher up than these holes.. those holes would be used for the attachment somehow in this scenario.

 

[flat five]

edit-- this does appear to be how it's supposed to work.. just not quite sure how.


but hey.. I'm burnt out. I'll see you all in a month or so.
adios

##

 

[iSee]

In other words, you toss the thing out when you're done with it/want a better one like a toaster oven or any other appliance.

Edit: can't let this image go to waste--4 hours in photoshop!
Image

OK, I know this post is more about your photoshop skillz than a thoughtful response, but consider: What do you do with the leftover GPU, CPU or RAM which you swap in an upgrade?

Nothing's changed here but the granularity of the package.

I have a hard time believing anyone will treat one like a disposable appliance. Also, my guess is a used Mac Pro is more salable (and therefore will depreciate less) than those individual components. That's because its easier for a wide range of people to understand what they are buying and how they can use it.

Just to be clear, I don't know if the nMP will "work". I'm just trying to understand how it could work. It seems to me Apple didn't have a great reasons to go with a proprietary form factor for the GPUs. It seems to allow for the custom thermal management design, but so what? Seems like it would have been possible to use a conventional thermal design in a somewhat bigger package (maybe even a cylindrical one?). I also question no dual CPU or single GPU options -- I really don't think it's clear that GPGPU on OpenCL is the wave of the future for computationally intensive tasks.

 

[Nugget]

it's pretty much saying to put your thumb on it and push in..

This is purely wishful thinking. There's no way at all to justify this from looking at the pictures, and everything we know about Apple so far points in the opposite direction. You really have to want to believe this for it to be credible.

 

[thekev]

Answer? It's an appliance. The upgrade path is to drag your current Mac Mini Pro to the trashcan, and buy a new one.

You sound like you were drifting toward a joke about a trashcan within a trashcan.

 

[AidenShaw]

You sound like you were drifting toward a joke about a trashcan within a trashcan.

Infinite recursion is that place where I dare not go.... (Dune humour)

Seriously though, I think that the Mac Mini Pro is an example of where Apple's penchant for giving different things the same name is simply stupid.

The "Tube"/"TrashCan"/"Mini Pro" has nothing in common with the Mac Pro. Why give it the same name?

It's a great upgrade for people who've outgrown their Mini Macs. For people with Mac Pros, in many ways it's a downgrade or a sidegrade at best.

 

[wallysb01]

if i look at the history of apple products, nothing at all says:
"beware: we are going to take our most serviceable product in the entire lineup and put it in line with the least serviceable items- in one fell swoop"

I don't think its going to be rMBP unservisable, but it could be one step away from that.

so while yes, something may negatively change between the mp1 and the new one, it's still going to be the most user serviceable product in their entire lineup.

I doubt its going to be easier to work on than the Mac Mini.

i like that set up and i'm glad i was able to change it.. but if i could do it over, i'd rather of just had the ssd in the first place instead of needing to buy it additionally.. the fact that i upgraded means i spent 25% more on the computer and it's not going to last any longer because i'll still be replacing the entire computer prior to it's hardware dying..

I don't know if that's the right way to look at it. If that computer already had what you wanted when you first bought it, it would have cost more then too.

that's the same exact question as "it's a workstation, why do i care how small it is?" ...as in, it says you have work to be done and the shape/size/color/etc of the actual computer is entirely irrelevant because you have much more important things to worry about other than hardware such as getting your work done.. so the question becomes "can i get my workstation type work done on this thing".. and the answer is "yes, better than you've been able to do using any computer apple has released prior to this one"

Depends on what you do. I don't think you're trying to use the personal "you" there, but rather the general "you", and I hope so. Because what I do is legitamately hindered by the new design.

1. I hardly need one GPU, let alone two. Maybe in another 5 years, some software in my field will have evolved to use them, but buying a computer in 2013 or 2014 with two GPUs to do what I do would be dumb. And while obviously that second GPU isn't hurting me, I am paying for something I'm not using, so I'm missing out on the opportunity to use that money to buy something I would use.

2. They took away the second CPU. That means 1/2 the work load of what a simple update to the old deseign could have handled. Its not approprate to just compare the 12 core 2013 to the 12 core 2010 and say the new is better than the old. That's because no customers are making purchasing decisions between buying the new MP or the old MP. Its between the new MP and other modern workstations.

3. They took away DIMMs, which is related to 2. Many of the things I do are RAM intensive, so >64 GB is kind of a must, even 128 is kinda low (which is what I have on my computer now but push things to clusters when I can't deal with it). And in the nMP, even getting to 128 requires expensive 32GB modules. Really, this might be the biggest deal breaker for my type of work. There just isn't a reason to have a workstation, and pay an extra $2-3K over an iMac, if I can't reasonably get over 64GB of RAM. At that point, the 32GB possible in the iMac can do all the same things as the Mac Pro. Which is to say, they would both basically be terminals to clusters, used as data hubs, and for light finish up work once the big number chrunching jobs are done.

4. They took away hard drive bays. Now these can be replaced externally, but to replicate the speed, relability and elegance its more expensive.

So, for my work its a big step back and the size has a lot to do with the reason why.

 

[AidenShaw]

So, for my work its a big step back and the size has a lot to do with the reason why.

But it's "thinner" - isn't that innovative?

...no

 

[thekev]

But it's "thinner" - isn't that innovative?

...no

Perhaps Stephen King will sue Apple.

 

[flat five]

This is purely wishful thinking. There's no way at all to justify this from looking at the pictures, and everything we know about Apple so far points in the opposite direction. You really have to want to believe this for it to be credible.

what do we know about apple?


they use proprietary pentalobe screws on designs which are meant to be serviced by apple techs only..

..and they use latches and standard screws on designs which are meant to be serviced by users.

for a forum that's supposedly so tech oriented, some of you sure are bad at reading design cues..

----------

maybe the only weird thing about this setup is if you want to switch gpus, you'll have to switch the ssd as well.. due to the ease of changing the drive, we can almost call this a wash.. or, the new drive is so much better than the old that it still wins out in this case.. it's just that it loses some slickness(?) points by being doubled up like this..

after a rethink, maybe it is pretty slick after all?
it's possible, since all the boards are custom, apple is using them for voltage conversion instead of everything happening at the psu level..

the power supply might be putting out 12v only then anything that needs another voltage (ssd in this case) is getting it right before it's specific plug..

 

[Nugget]

Like I said... wishful thinking.

 

[flat five]

Like I said... wishful thinking.

as in I wish or hope this stuff to be true?
because honestly, I don't really even care. user serviceable ranks pretty low on my list of requirements for an electronic purchase.

it's the people who do seemingly care about this stuff that refuse to analyze it beyond "initial gut feeling = I don't like nmp.. it's strange.. therefore, I'm going to complain about every single aspect regardless of whether or not it makes any sense"

edit- hopefully, once this thing comes out and people realize how easy it is to work on, they'll change their tune about other aspects as well.. I highly doubt it though. :/

 

[Nugget]

it's the people who do seemingly care about this stuff that refuse to analyze it beyond "initial gut feeling = I don't like nmp.. it's strange.. therefore, I'm going to complain about every single aspect regardless of whether or not it makes any sense"

The fact that hardly anyone agrees with you is not because they are all "refusing to analyze" the situation. It's because your conclusions are far-fetched and implausible.

And, for what it's worth, the nMP is fine for me too. I never did any upgrades to any of my previous Mac Pros and I doubt I will miss the ability to do so to the new one. I can't speak for the others posting in the thread but your "analysis" of my motivations is a failure as well.

 

[flat five]

The fact that hardly anyone agrees with you is not because they are all "refusing to analyze" the situation. It's because your conclusions are far-fetched and implausible.

lol.. ok.. easy access latch, user friendly screws, no pictures of glue etc.. but my conclusions are implausible? sweet
#

you realize i keep pointing out the obvious and nobody argues my points? they just ignore what i'm saying and revert to "but the mbp has glue in it" -or- "apple will make more money by selling you 3x nmp per decade" (which, as i outlined earlier, is unlikely as well)

it's not that people aren't agreeing with me.. they're just blatantly ignoring facts

I can't speak for the others posting in the thread but your "analysis" of my motivations is a failure as well.

i don't recall analyzing your motivations but whatever

 

[flat five]

after a rethink, maybe it is pretty slick after all?
it's possible, since all the boards are custom, apple is using them for voltage conversion instead of everything happening at the psu level..

came across this on wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_(computer)

Since 2011, Fujitsu and other Tier 1 manufacturers[9] have been manufacturing systems containing motherboard variants which require only a 12V supply from a custom made PSU (typically rated at 250–300W). DC-DC conversion, providing 5V and 3.3V, is done on the motherboard; the proposal is that 5V and 12V supply for other devices, such as HDDs, will be picked up at the motherboard rather than from the PSU itself (though this does not appear to be fully implemented as of January 2012). The reasons given for this approach to power supply are that it eliminates cross-load problems, simplifies and reduces internal wiring which can affect airflow and cooling, reduces costs, increases power supply efficiency and reduces noise by bringing the power supply fan speed under the control of the motherboard. Other advantages it offers is the potential ability to power a PC off a sealed lead-acid 12 volt battery, or from automotive power without using a power inverter.

this stuff is beyond my knowledge... it's confusing to me. but still worth mentioning maybe..





this quote from the same link is sort of telling though:

Because of this change, it is important to consider the +12 V supply capacity, rather than the overall power capacity, when using an older ATX power supply with a more recent computer.
Low-quality power supply manufacturers sometimes take advantage of this overspecification by assigning unrealistically high power supply ratings, knowing that very few customers fully understand power supply ratings

dunno, i think i'll wait for an (actual) expert to review the electrics of the new mac prior to making any claims of it being throttled etc based on wattage alone..

 

[AidenShaw]

dunno, i think i'll wait for an (actual) expert to review the electrics of the new mac prior to making any claims of it being throttled etc based on wattage alone..

In others, wait for an (actual) Mac Mini Pro to show up....

This year maybe, but probably next year.

 

[flat five]

In others, wait for an (actual) Mac Mini Pro to show up....

haha
true

 

[cgk.emu]

Yes - your reasoning is flawed.

You're boldly making claims without ever even having seen a picture of the CPU in the Mac Mini Pro.

I've never said that it *won't* be swappable -- I've brought up points which might lead to it not being user swappable.

You're being reckless, I'm being cautious.

Does anybody actually, and I mean 100% no doubt about it, TRULY believe Apple would EVER make these things with swappable CPU's???

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what do we know about apple?


they use proprietary pentalobe screws on designs which are meant to be serviced by apple techs only..

Image
Image





..and they use latches and standard screws on designs which are meant to be serviced by users.


Image
Image


for a forum that's supposedly so tech oriented, some of you sure are bad at reading design cues..

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after a rethink, maybe it is pretty slick after all?
it's possible, since all the boards are custom, apple is using them for voltage conversion instead of everything happening at the psu level..

the power supply might be putting out 12v only then anything that needs another voltage (ssd in this case) is getting it right before it's specific plug..

Okay I get all that, but having a lever has nothing to do with swappable CPU's. That's not exactly an Apple supported "feature", it's not a feature at all, it's something users do that voids their warranty.

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as in I wish or hope this stuff to be true?
because honestly, I don't really even care. user serviceable ranks pretty low on my list of requirements for an electronic purchase.

it's the people who do seemingly care about this stuff that refuse to analyze it beyond "initial gut feeling = I don't like nmp.. it's strange.. therefore, I'm going to complain about every single aspect regardless of whether or not it makes any sense"

edit- hopefully, once this thing comes out and people realize how easy it is to work on, they'll change their tune about other aspects as well.. I highly doubt it though. :/

I'm a Mac Pro user right now. The new MP is NOTHING like the old ones. I think you confuse a latch to get to the RAM and SSD on this thing with being able to do waaaaaay more.

 

[flat five]

Does anybody actually, and I mean 100% no doubt about it, TRULY believe Apple would EVER make these things with swappable CPU's???

yeah, me
i mean the imac has swappable cpu.. why wouldn't the mac pro?

Okay I get all that, but having a lever has nothing to do with swappable CPU's. That's not exactly an Apple supported "feature", it's not a feature at all, it's something users do that voids their warranty.

cpu swaps, as far as i can tell, generally happen after three years anyway.. right?

I'm a Mac Pro user right now. The new MP is NOTHING like the old ones. I think you confuse a latch to get to the RAM and SSD on this thing with being able to do waaaaaay more.

you just keep going until you can't go anymore.. first thing is the latch-- it says it's easy to get into the guts.. once the shell is off, you see the standard screws.. so keep going.

and nobody has kept going til it can be said "the cpu is not replaceable".. in fact, that decision has already been made by many people here prior to step1- the latch

 

[flat five]

Okay I get all that, but having a lever has nothing to do with swappable CPU's. That's not exactly an Apple supported "feature", it's not a feature at all, it's something users do that voids their warranty.

cpu swaps, as far as i can tell, generally happen after three years anyway.. right?

..but i will add this.. it looks to be entirely possible for apple to sell the board with the cpu in place as an upgrade part which will not void warranties..

whether or not they would do that is obviously debatable but the design of the computer appears to allow for it.

it would probably be 8 screws and one connection.. a little more work than swapping a hard drive in the mp1

(edit- well, you'd have to swap the ram too so maybe a bit more work than a single mp1 hd )

 

[flat five]

i guess selling the board + cpu also solves the dilemma of apple not making cash off a cpu upgrade..

they're going to be in charge of all the other upgrades regardless of who makes them (proprietary drive and gpu.. force sell the ram)

and i really don't think they'd mind selling a $2500 cpu to someone that bought a quad 2 years ago..

 

[theSeb]

Let me help you guys out to finish this debate.

appliance

definition:

a device or piece of equipment designed to perform a specific task.

Therefore the new Mac Pro is an appliance. The old Mac Pro is also an appliance. Every computer is an appliance.