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Isn't this what Apple is doing wrong in regards to OS X?

NoSmokingBandit said:
Thats because BMW's are generally made with much higher quality parts and are engineered to be more comfortable to drive and more responsive on the road. Macs are made with he same parts as other computers, only they have been blessed by steve jobs so people think they are something spectacular.
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A bit polemical, maybe.

I love how Mac users continue to be painted as nigh irrational. Unlike the auto-industry the computer industry has only a limited number of suppliers. Apple can't and shouldn't make their own hard-drives and chips, nor their own LCD panels.

And even premium, in-house designed BMW has defects and problems.
 
hulugu said:
A bit polemical, maybe.

I love how Mac users continue to be painted as nigh irrational. Unlike the auto-industry the computer industry has only a limited number of suppliers. Apple can't and shouldn't make their own hard-drives and chips, nor their own LCD panels.

And even premium, in-house designed BMW has defects and problems.
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No kidding, our BMW is about to go back to the shop for the fourth time in six months.

Analogies get strained in a hurry, but they live on just the same.
 
hulugu said:
A bit polemical, maybe. .
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Just plane wrong actually.

BMW custom make a bespoke 5 litre V10 engine, a brilliant semi automatic gearbox, a trick rear diff, bodywork, electronics, fuel tank, wheels, suspension.... they design and build almost the whole thing.

Apple buy a chip, ram, display, chipset from other companies. The very core of the machine, the things that make it go - are the same things you'll find in machines half the price. Apple build some shiny bodywork on top - take OUT some of the features other manufacturers provide - and still charge more.

I've seen this very process happen time and time again - and anyone telling me they're not seen it themselves is probably not being honest.

Friends/Family see your Mac
You show them why you like it
They like those features as well
They think about getting a Mac for doing what they need to do
They see the price of a machine like yours
They think that's too much to do what they need to do
They buy a PC laptop for half the price.

My neigbours, my parents, my colleagues... it's the same story every time.

They like the look of the thing, they like what it can do - but there's one simple barrier

It's too expensive.
 
djellison said:
they design and build almost the whole thing.

Apple buy a chip, ram, display, chipset from other companies. The very core of the machine, the things that make it go - are the same things you'll find in machines half the price. Apple build some shiny bodywork on top - take OUT some of the features other manufacturers provide - and still charge more.
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Doesn't apple also design the logicboard?
 
NT1440 said:
Doesn't apple also design the logicboard?
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If you want to be pedantic, yes. The traces are essentially determined by the chipset, CPU and RAM. It's nothing special. It simply functions - and functions the same as any other laptops motherboard. It's not better, faster, more luxurious, or in any way justified as being more expensive. The BMW analogy is utterly utterly false.

Doug
 
Slowstick said:
And Macs is Apple's smallest market. The iPod and iPhone have done way better, and the majority of revenues come from this I believe. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Macs are Apple's smallest market? Huh?? I thought that up to this day, the sales of Mac hardware and software combined made up the majority (over 50%) of their revenue. The rest of the revenue is from other products like iPhone and iPods and Steve Jobs plushie dolls, etc.

By the way, one has to be incredibly anal if one assumed that Powerbooks and MacMinis are NOT under the category of "Macs". Generally they are also considered "Macs". In essense, anything that runs the MacOS is a "Mac". That also includes the discontinued Mac Clones from 9-10 years ago.

What's the profit margin on those Steve Jobs plushie dolls?
 
MacTraveller said:
Macs are Apple's smallest market? Huh?? I thought that up to this day, the sales of Mac hardware and software combined made up the majority (over 50%) of their revenue. The rest of the revenue is from other products like iPhone and iPods and Steve Jobs plushie dolls, etc.

By the way, one has to be incredibly anal if one assumed that Powerbooks and MacMinis are NOT under the category of "Macs". Generally they are also considered "Macs". In essense, anything that runs the MacOS is a "Mac". That also includes the discontinued Mac Clones from 9-10 years ago.

What's the profit margin on those Steve Jobs plushie dolls?
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Somebody corrected me above. I wasn't sure, that is why I said "Correct me if i am wrong."

By the way, Apple doesn't get any revenues from clones!:D
 
djellison said:
The BMW analogy is utterly utterly false.
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Not really, IMO. BMW creates a unique product to go after a niche market. BMW isn't interested in being like GM. Apple creates a unique product to go after a niche market. Apple isn't interested in being like Dell. Comparing the business model is a decent analogy. Comparing the actual products falls apart more quickly though because it's really apples and oranges. Sure, Apple uses the same HDDs, RAM, CPUs, etc., that other companies do but the cases and motherboards sure aren't off-the-shelf generics. iPods and iPhones are unique to Apple as well. Of course the real meat of any computer, the software, is made by Apple as well (OS X, FCP, iLife suite, etc.,). While the luxury car analogy isn't perfect, I can see why people make it and it does hold water, IMO, if used w/broad strokes and mostly focusing on the business model.


Lethal
 
The car analogy is so overworked. Apple could only be "like BMW" if the other 90% of car owners drove only one other brand of car. We can fool ourselves into believing that the PC makers are giving us real choice, but in reality that choice is extremely limited, because in fact all of their computers work the same way, and that way is determined by Microsoft. Essentially the only computers that don't work that way are sold by Apple. So those are really the only two options. The car market is far more diverse, and not nearly as lopsided in favor of any maker.
 
IJ Reilly said:
The car analogy is so overworked.
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I agree it is overused but that doesn't change the fact that companies like BMW and Apple (and Flacon Northwest, and Velocity Micro, and Alienware before they were bought by Dell, etc.,) aim for a certain niche w/their business models. BMW isn't catering to the Pontiac Sunfire market and Apple isn't catering to the $299 Dell Inspiron market. Both companies can survive and be profitable w/o having to create products for every demographic.


Lethal
 
LethalWolfe said:
I agree it is overused but that doesn't change the fact that companies like BMW and Apple (and Flacon Northwest, and Velocity Micro, and Alienware before they were bought by Dell, etc.,) aim for a certain niche w/their business models. BMW isn't catering to the Pontiac Sunfire market and Apple isn't catering to the $299 Dell Inspiron market. Both companies can survive and be profitable w/o having to create products for every demographic.
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Yes but... looked at this way, virtually all companies cater to "niche markets," insofar as few manufacturers try to be all things to all people. The great exception to this is the weird Windows OEM market. For one thing, it's highly unusual to have any market so completely dominated by one company. For another, it's highly unusual to have any industry so completely subservient to one company, as the PC hardware industry is to Microsoft. This has been going on for so long, that most people think it's normal. This situation certainly is not normal, and is really without precedent or analogy.

What Apple does is far more normative, but they are forced to do it within the context of a highly distorted and abnormal market. This causes many to believe that Apple's approach is odd, when in reality, Apple is developing and marketing its products in a very conventional way. It's the rest of the PC market that's out of kilter.
 
MacTraveller said:
Macs are Apple's smallest market? Huh?? I thought that up to this day, the sales of Mac hardware and software combined made up the majority (over 50%) of their revenue. The rest of the revenue is from other products like iPhone and iPods and Steve Jobs plushie dolls, etc.
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Actually 47%, not a majority.
 
djellison said:
If you want to be pedantic, yes. The traces are essentially determined by the chipset, CPU and RAM. It's nothing special. It simply functions - and functions the same as any other laptops motherboard. It's not better, faster, more luxurious, or in any way justified as being more expensive. The BMW analogy is utterly utterly false.

Doug
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Oh no , im well aware that most companies also design their logic boards, your post just gave the impression that ALL apple does is buy some parts, then throw them in. I didnt want people to think thats actually what happens.
 
IJ Reilly said:
We can fool ourselves into believing that the PC makers are giving us real choice, but in reality that choice is extremely limited, because in fact all of their computers work the same way, and that way is determined by Microsoft. Essentially the only computers that don't work that way are sold by Apple.
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Hold on... Are you saying that Apple gives more choices than other pc manufacturers?
Naturally MS gets a huge say in how non-apple computers are made because 98% of non-apple computers run windows and the rest run linux which has no organization thus nobody can speak for them. Apple could get involved with the rest of the market if they didnt insist on tying their OS to their computers.
 
NoSmokingBandit said:
Hold on... Are you saying that Apple gives more choices than other pc manufacturers?
Naturally MS gets a huge say in how non-apple computers are made because 98% of non-apple computers run windows and the rest run linux which has no organization thus nobody can speak for them. Apple could get involved with the rest of the market if they didnt insist on tying their OS to their computers.
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They give us another choice. The vast majority all of the other PCs on the market are essentially undifferentiated from each other in one very significant way: they all run Windows.
 
IJ Reilly said:
They give us another choice. The vast majority all of the other PCs on the market are essentially undifferentiated from each other in one very significant way: they all run Windows.
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Yes, but you have to realize that this is apple's fault. Apple doesnt let anyone use their OS unless you buy their comparatively expensive hardware. You cant blame the other computer manufacturers for lack of OS choices when Apple is to blame for a large part of it.
 
NoSmokingBandit said:
You cant blame the other computer manufacturers for lack of OS choices when Apple is to blame for a large part of it.
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Not really, you assume that the only possible choices possible are Windows and Mac. They are not. The fact that it may be difficult to manufacture, develop, and successfully market is neither Apple's nor Microsoft's fault.


The blame is on Pc Manufactures unwillingness to develop their own system like Apple did years ago. The PC manufactures entered into these agreements on their own accord - nobody forced them.
 
IJ Reilly said:
Yes but... looked at this way, virtually all companies cater to "niche markets," insofar as few manufacturers try to be all things to all people.
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Some companies are obviously more broad-spectrum than others though. Sony and Panasonic sell everything from consumer handy-cams to full-sized professional cameras used for movies and TV shows. Dell sells everything from uber-cheap boxes to tricked-out Alienware rigs targeted at big gamers w/big wallets. GM spans the range from econobox to luxury SUV. Apple, like BMW or Oakley, aren't nearly as tiered as those companies are. Apple doesn't compete in the how low can you go marketplace that Dell mastered.

The great exception to this is the weird Windows OEM market. For one thing, it's highly unusual to have any market so completely dominated by one company.
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When talking about operating systems yes, but when talking about hardware there is more competition. I can choose from Dell or HP or Falcon NW or just build my own machine using a combination of components (case, video card, motherboard, CPUs, sound card, network card, etc.,) that's not available from any computer manufacturer. Of course the end goal of that hardware is most likely to run Windows, but is that much different than the end goal of almost all cars to drive on the same streets and highways?


Lethal
 
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