iPad Jason Snell and John Gruber on the confusing iPad lineup

[paulmeyers42]

Nowadays many people go for the iPad Pro and use it for watching YouTube.
The iPad lineup should be organized the same way as the Apple Watch (so far the clearest and intuitive)
iPad Pro shall only take a small proportion of iPad users like the aw ultra. It is made for the people who take iPad seriously, like awu users who do all sorts of outdoor activities and sport.
iPad Air should be aimed at most users, and it should do well for studying, note taking, consuming content, everyday stuff. Still, iPad Air should be considered high end, but high-end in a different way compared to iPad Pro. This is equivalent to Apple Watch series 9, as it have the best equipments but is not built rugged.
iPad se should be the budget version, while it could do most jobs iPad Air can handle, it does not have a full laminated display, a previous generation processor, speakers, mics, camera all help bring the price down.

Why would you stop people from spending $1000+ just to watch YouTube, if it makes them feel good while doing it? People buy all sorts of expensive goods for "feel" rather than utility, and that's totally fine. And why would you lose all that revenue/margin just for the sake of some intellectual purity? That's being financial irresponsible as a corporate manager.

I would argue that, sadly as a huge iPad fan, that the iPad's best days are behind it - it's a mature product line and that's why we're seeing this "complexity" in the line-up. It's now just a matter of carving up a fixed pie to maximize margin.

The Apple Watch is still a growing product line - there's still the huge untapped Android market for example - so simplicity in lineup makes sense. You can still take huge swaths of a growing market with a simple product mix.

 

[Isengardtom]

What would possibly make sense for me :

- iPad 9 (lightning) is removed next year / as is Apple Pencil 1
- iPad 10 (11) becomes slightly cheaper / pair with pencil USB / stays at 64 GB storage
- iPad Air is bumped to M2 and 128 GB storage / same price
- iPad Air 12.9 is introduced for 150 USD / 200 USD more with same specs
- iPad Pro 11 inch gets OLED, M3 and maybe base storage increase to 256 GB for 200 USD price increase
- iPad Pro 12.9 gets OLED and base storage increase to 256GB for 100 USD price increase

Apple pencil 2 is updated with a new version. Possible new Magic keyboards. At least the iPad Pro but probably also the Air get a horizontal front camera placement

potential larger iPad Pro is introduced

 

[winxmac]

iPhone
iPhone Air
iPhone Pro

iPad
iPad Air
iPad Pro

MacBook
MacBook Air
MacBook Pro

 

[callihan_44]

I think the macbook air makes it harder to justify the 12.9 ipad w/ keyboard.
overall I keep hearing that tablets are not as popular as once was. I find myself having a hard time making use of one

 

[Digitalguy]

What would possibly make sense for me :

- iPad 9 (lightning) is removed next year / as is Apple Pencil 1
- iPad 10 (11) becomes slightly cheaper / pair with pencil USB / stays at 64 GB storage
- iPad Air is bumped to M2 and 128 GB storage / same price
- iPad Air 12.9 is introduced for 150 USD / 200 USD more with same specs
- iPad Pro 11 inch gets OLED, M3 and maybe base storage increase to 256 GB for 200 USD price increase
- iPad Pro 12.9 gets OLED and base storage increase to 256GB for 100 USD price increase

Apple pencil 2 is updated with a new version. Possible new Magic keyboards. At least the iPad Pro but probably also the Air get a horizontal front camera placement

potential larger iPad Pro is introduced

the good news is, these are basically the rumors for next year, so pretty likely

 

[Digitalguy]

I think the macbook air makes it harder to justify the 12.9 ipad w/ keyboard.
overall I keep hearing that tablets are not as popular as once was. I find myself having a hard time making use of one

there are still enough people buying these combo NOT to replace a Macbook air but for other uses, that it makes sense for Apple to keep selling them (and at large profit margins)

 

[Isengardtom]

the good news is, these are basically the rumors for next year, so pretty likely

I think they make sense for once though

 

[Isengardtom]

there are still enough people buying these combo NOT to replace a Macbook air but for other uses, that it makes sense for Apple to keep selling them (and at large profit margins)

Yeah not everyone likes Mac laptops.

I hate them personally.

I recently moved to a windows desktop (mostly for gaming and a also bit of working from home) but I still have my M1 iMac for now. I’m hoping one day Apple brings back Target display which would make that combo much more powerful.

The iPad works well as a secondary device for teams, communication, mail, … and to me they are a much more pleasant home device than a Mac laptop is. Easier to use on the couch and in Bed, On flights or hotels while traveling. And better screen and audio on the pro, which will even be more obvious when the 11” goes OLED. The MBA won’t get OLED soon.

also better for note taking and more modular with the option of the pen and keyboard.


yes for some workflows like video editing for example, a Mac makes a lot more sense, which is also why your hear the criticisms on the iPad so loudly coming from YouTubers.

on top of thar, for most workflows a windows computer makes a ton more sense than a Mac, eg business workflows … Windows computers are much better at multitasking.

Hot take: I think the iPad with stage manager and its split screen options is also better at multitasking than a mac

Second hot take linking to those YouTubers hating the iPad: the Mac is as stale in terms of innovation as the iPad is. Yes Apple introduced M chips but while the M1 was a huge bump, my guess is the future M chips will be equally incremental as the intel upgrades were, with several years of spec bumps ahead

 

[Rogifan]

if by complexity you mean iPad 9 in the line, this is more due to the EU and USB C requirement than anything else.
Apple was not going to change the design (they would have been no base iPad with USB C for years) if it wasn't for USB C requirement, but at the same time they are not willing to let the low price point go to avoid losing that segment of the market, nor they want to sell the iPad 10 for $350, as it would cannibalize the air, at least for now. Hence the status quo. But at some point the 9 will be dropped and the 10 may stay as a cheaper alternative to the 11. Nothing new, the iPad 2 had a similar fate for years (except that back then there was no pro), the M1 air is still there etc.
Also it's not just a matter of good, better and best. There is also a matter of size.
Apple is not leaving money on the table just become some here feel the need to "simplify" or rather would like "the same or better for less money"

The 9 and 10 don’t both need to exist. The Air and 11“ Pro don’t both need to exist. Even if the 9 needs to exist for the education market then offer it to schools but take it out of the consumer lineup.

 

[Isengardtom]

The 9 and 10 don’t both need to exist. The Air and 11“ Pro don’t both need to exist. Even if the 9 needs to exist for the education market then offer it to schools but take it out of the consumer lineup.

The Air makes sense if the pro 11 goes up in price next year, but only if the air gets a base 126GB storage

I agree the current air is a bit strange.

 

[Digitalguy]

The 9 and 10 don’t both need to exist. The Air and 11“ Pro don’t both need to exist. Even if the 9 needs to exist for the education market then offer it to schools but take it out of the consumer lineup.

they all need to exist to cover a given price point and them not existing means leaving money on the table. It's not just eduction. If Apple starts at $450 the iPad line, many will move to Android... and the air does need to exist with the 11" moving to OLED and increasing in price

 

[paulmeyers42]

The 9 and 10 don’t both need to exist. The Air and 11“ Pro don’t both need to exist. Even if the 9 needs to exist for the education market then offer it to schools but take it out of the consumer lineup.

You could put the iPad 9th gen onto the education market and remove it from the general consumer market.

But what if there are still a significant number of consumers out there who will only pay $329 for an iPad? You would lose those customers to another manufacturer or the gray market.

That's lost revenue and loss margin, on a product line that's already not doing that great.

If you're a product marketer at Apple, how do you justify this decision to your boss?

 

[Digitalguy]

Yeah not everyone likes Mac laptops.

I hate them personally.

I recently moved to a windows desktop (mostly for gaming and a also bit of working from home) but I still have my M1 iMac for now. I’m hoping one day Apple brings back Target display which would make that combo much more powerful.

The iPad works well as a secondary device for teams, communication, mail, … and to me they are a much more pleasant home device than a Mac laptop is. Easier to use on the couch and in Bed, On flights or hotels while traveling. And better screen and audio on the pro, which will even be more obvious when the 11” goes OLED. The MBA won’t get OLED soon.

also better for note taking and more modular with the option of the pen and keyboard.


yes for some workflows like video editing for example, a Mac makes a lot more sense, which is also why your hear the criticisms on the iPad so loudly coming from YouTubers.

on top of thar, for most workflows a windows computer makes a ton more sense than a Mac, eg business workflows … Windows computers are much better at multitasking.

Hot take: I think the iPad with stage manager and its split screen options is also better at multitasking than a mac

Second hot take linking to those YouTubers hating the iPad: the Mac is as stale in terms of innovation as the iPad is. Yes Apple introduced M chips but while the M1 was a huge bump, my guess is the future M chips will be equally incremental as the intel upgrades were, with several years of spec bumps ahead

While I don't hate Macs, I definitely prefer Windows as my main work device. Main reasons are I need to use a stylus, I like having touch, multitasking works better and using multiple monitors with scaling etc is way better.
I still keep my M1 Mac Mini as my plex server and for some other more rare uses, mainly because it's silent and power efficient.
Another exception is my 12" Mac, which is great as a youtube machine and I use it everyday (no other Windows machines gives me that combination of screen, speakers and weight), but I also use the iPad pro for youtube.

Other than that I work on Windows (mainly at home) all day long (desktop and laptops)

 

[klasma]

some of the apple lineup recently reminds me of the old old days in the mid 90s when there would always be at least two machines where one was better in some ways but the other was better than others and you couldnt decide whether to get a quadra or an LC or a performa

Yes, that’s exactly why the current iPad line-up is being perceived as messy. It’s not the number of models, it’s the disjoint distribution of features, like the landscape camera on the 10th-gen, the new Pencil being both worse and better than the Pencil 1, the mini (personal pet peeve) having weird volume button placement and orientation-dependent behavior, the Magic Keyboard Folio for the 10th-gen having more keys than the Magic Keyboard for the Air and Pros, and so on.

 

[zach-coleman]

So a price sensitive market necessitates complexity? You can’t have good —> better —> best in a price sensitive market? Seems to me you could have good (those who are most price sensitive), better (the majority of buyers) and best (those who want/need top of the line and where price is no issue).

Seems to me the iPad has Grandma/Education —> Good —> Better —> Best (in 2 sizes), I don’t understand what’s over complicated besides the pencils.

edit: I forgot the mini existed. lol. The mini having a flash is the weirdest thing to me honestly. Why does it have it and not the Air?

 

[Rafterman]

As long as iPadOS remains limited, I find it harder and harder to justify an iPad bigger than a Mini. Especially since the iPad Pros (with keyboards) rival MacBook Pros in price, size and weight.

 

[Rogifan]

You could put the iPad 9th gen onto the education market and remove it from the general consumer market.

But what if there are still a significant number of consumers out there who will only pay $329 for an iPad? You would lose those customers to another manufacturer or the gray market.

That's lost revenue and loss margin, on a product line that's already not doing that great.

If you're a product marketer at Apple, how do you justify this decision to your boss?

Designing products to fill price points or keeping products around longer than they should to fill price points seems like something Samsung would do, not Apple. If Apple can’t design a good iPad for $329 then maybe there’s a problem with Apple’s iPad leadership.

 

[madeirabhoy]

iPhone
iPhone Air
iPhone Pro

iPad
iPad Air
iPad Pro

MacBook
MacBook Air
MacBook Pro

air makes less sense when often the air model isn't especially lighter.

iPhone SE
iphone
Iphone pro

iPad SE
iPad
iPad pro

MacBook SE
MacBook
MacBook Pro

 

[paulmeyers42]

Designing products to fill price points or keeping products around longer than they should to fill price points seems like something Samsung would do, not Apple. If Apple can’t design a good iPad for $329 then maybe there’s a problem with Apple’s iPad leadership.

Apple has been doing this for decades - they’re world class masters at figuring out products/upsells for each price point.

The rare missteps like the $349 OG HomePod stand out because they’re so rare.

I do agree that I wish Apple would be more creative and design products specifically for lower price points like they did in the iPod days, like the Shuffle and Nano. That’s more of a personal bias though - clearly the strategy is working for them for these days.

 

[Abazigal]

So a price sensitive market necessitates complexity? You can’t have good —> better —> best in a price sensitive market? Seems to me you could have good (those who are most price sensitive), better (the majority of buyers) and best (those who want/need top of the line and where price is no issue).

I guess the question is - why is everything sticking to the "good, better, best" paradigm so religiously?

I get that it worked for Apple at a time when it was recovering from bankruptcy. And maybe that's the whole point - it worked for a company who didn't have a ton of resources at their disposal and so had to be ultra-selective about what they did and what they didn't do.

The Apple of today has no such restrictions, so they certainly have the resources to manage a wider product lineup.

It feels like people here are conflating "Apple is selling stuff that I don't need" with "Apple's product lineup is too bloated just because".

 

[Rogifan]

Apple has been doing this for decades - they’re world class masters at figuring out products/upsells for each price point.

The rare missteps like the $349 OG HomePod stand out because they’re so rare.

I do agree that I wish Apple would be more creative and design products specifically for lower price points like they did in the iPod days, like the Shuffle and Nano. That’s more of a personal bias though - clearly the strategy is working for them for these days.

Yes they could be more creative at the low end and reduce complexity at the same time.

 

[Rogifan]

I guess the question is - why is everything sticking to the "good, better, best" paradigm so religiously?

I get that it worked for Apple at a time when it was recovering from bankruptcy. And maybe that's the whole point - it worked for a company who didn't have a ton of resources at their disposal and so had to be ultra-selective about what they did and what they didn't do.

The Apple of today has no such restrictions, so they certainly have the resources to manage a wider product lineup.

It feels like people here are conflating "Apple is selling stuff that I don't need" with "Apple's product lineup is too bloated just because".

I’m not conflating anything. Consumers don’t like complexity and often too much choice makes it harder for them to decide what to buy not easier. In the case of iPad it doesn’t seem like Apple is designing to specific customer wants/needs but rather to meet certain margin requirements. It seems the iPad Air exists because a $449 iPad and $799 iPad Pro is too much of a gap price wise. And the iPad Pro cannot start at anything less than $799.

If you look at the iPad, iPad Air and 11” Pro surely one product could come out of those three that could be positioned as the mid-range product. Do you really think Apple is upselling that many people to an iPad Air over the 10th gen iPad? I doubt it. So maybe there’s a bigger price gap between the pro and non-pro iPads but who cares? Those who need all the features of the iPad Pro will buy an iPad Pro and everyone else won’t. So you could have a $329 entry level iPad (good), $499 mid-range iPad (better) and iPad Pro starting at $799 (best). And I totally forgot about the iPad mini, which right now is more expensive than the 10th gen iPad. So maybe the entry level iPad is the mini.

 

[Ludatyk]

I’m not conflating anything. Consumers don’t like complexity and often too much choice makes it harder for them to decide what to buy not easier. In the case of iPad it doesn’t seem like Apple is designing to specific customer wants/needs but rather to meet certain margin requirements. It seems the iPad Air exists because a $449 iPad and $799 iPad Pro is too much of a gap price wise. And the iPad Pro cannot start at anything less than $799.

And then you can make the case of the 13" MBP... why does that exist? Because there's a price gap between the MBA and 14" MBP that needs to be filled.

If you look at the iPad, iPad Air and 11” Pro surely one product could come out of those three that could be positioned as the mid-range product. Do you really think Apple is upselling that many people to an iPad Air over the 10th gen iPad? I doubt it. So maybe there’s a bigger price gap between the pro and non-pro iPads but who cares? Those who need all the features of the iPad Pro will buy an iPad Pro and everyone else won’t. So you could have a $329 entry level iPad (good), $499 mid-range iPad (better) and iPad Pro starting at $799 (best). And I totally forgot about the iPad mini, which right now is more expensive than the 10th gen iPad. So maybe the entry level iPad is the mini.

The current iPad lineup that we are in... this is the best Apple can come up with, I'm sure they have gone through every detail determining how to position the lineup. I understand it can be confusing to the average joe... but that's where store representatives or users within the Apple community come into the picture.

And then there's plenty of helpful videos and articles to help out with buying decisions.

 

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

Apple shareholders now demand close to 40% margin on hardware or the company is failing. That's why this product line-up looks the way it does.

Yeah.

For me, just about every current Apple product line-up is one flagship model and then two models that are completely overpriced and outdated and lacking in several many areas, very low value in relation to price.

The new USB-C Pencil is the perfect example of this:

It's really only 40% cheaper than the $129 flagship Pencil. But it offers so much less than 60% of the features that the $129 Pencil does.

Same goes for iPhones: The $799 iPhone is 20% cheaper than the $999 Pro. But the value of the components and features the $799 gets you is far, far less than 80% of the Pro.

You either get the over-priced flagship product or get regret buying the incredibly low-value/$ option that you thought was good enough (but it never is).

 

[Rogifan]

And then you can make the case of the 13" MBP... why does that exist? Because there's a price gap between the MBA and 14" MBP that needs to be filled.


The current iPad lineup that we are in... this is the best Apple can come up with, I'm sure they have gone through every detail determining how to position the lineup. I understand it can be confusing to the average joe... but that's where store representatives or users within the Apple community come into the picture.

And then there's plenty of helpful videos and articles to help out with buying decisions.

The best Apple can come up with when the accountants run the show.