Jony Ive’s vision was killed today

[iPadified]

You've set it up as Apple not paying as much attention to detail with Ive's departure, but there are two key kinds of attention to detail. And Ive gave great attention to design detail, but poor attention to engineering detail. There has to be a balance, and IMO the pendulum swung too far to form over function during the Ive era.

Further, engineering detail should not be dismissed merely as a list of specs. It includes usability. Take the butterfly keyboard, for instance. [And let's set aside the reliability problems.] Here we have great attention to design detail, because it enabled a slimmer, more beautiful machine. But we have poor attention to usability detail, since the lack of travel made (for most users) a less comfortable typing experience, especially after many hours at the keyboard. And it was noticeably noisier, another fine but important detail Ive missed.

Another key usability detail is fan noise. You can get used to a machine not being as svelte as you'd like much more easily than to it being noisy. It looks like Apple paid better attention to the this key usability detail with this machine, by combining processors that generate less heat with a case that can dissipate more of it, which will make for a much quieter (and more performant) user experience.

A laptop first and foremost usability parameter is to be portable also as a workstation. The thicker and heavier it is the less it will move form your desk and defies the first goal of a laptop. Sure, there are other usability parameters but if you are considering ergonomic solution such as noise look elsewhere - ie desktops. All laptops perform worse than desktop on all usability parameters except portability. Finding the balance between portability and secondary usability parameter is difficult and a matter of opinion.

Fully agree that Ives vision took the MBP (and MP 2013) too far in Intel/AMD era and in reality he was designing for ASi. The M1 pro and Max would work well in a slimmer package. That the poor durability of the butterfly keyboard was not caught in QC is an enigma. Who did decide to let the butterfly keyboard pass? Any evidence it was Ive alone?

 

[iPadified]

Usage, not looks, is the prime objective.

You just described the average windows PC . I am not sure I want that to happen for Apple .

 

[EntropyQ3]

A laptop first and foremost usability parameter is to be portable also as a workstation. The thicker and heavier it is the less it will move form your desk and defies the first goal of a laptop. Sure, there are other usability parameters but if you are considering ergonomic solution such as noise look elsewhere - ie desktops. All laptops perform worse than desktop on all usability parameters except portability. Finding the balance between portability and secondary usability parameter is difficult and a matter of opinion.

Definitely feel that noise is a very important parameter for any computer and a laptop in particular because it’s going to be right there, in your face, at less than armlength distance.
A noisy laptop is a piss poor design in my world.

 

[Arsenikdote]

A laptop first and foremost usability parameter is to be portable also as a workstation. The thicker and heavier it is the less it will move form your desk and defies the first goal of a laptop. Sure, there are other usability parameters but if you are considering ergonomic solution such as noise look elsewhere - ie desktops. All laptops perform worse than desktop on all usability parameters except portability. Finding the balance between portability and secondary usability parameter is difficult and a matter of opinion.

Fully agree that Ives vision took the MBP (and MP 2013) too far in Intel/AMD era and in reality he was designing for ASi. The M1 pro and Max would work well in a slimmer package. That the poor durability of the butterfly keyboard was not caught in QC is an enigma. Who did decide to let the butterfly keyboard pass? Any evidence it was Ive alone?

Isn’t what you said about finding the balance the key here? You can still get the super thin ultra portable Air (now with M1 blazing speed) and continue to step up in performance at the cost of portability. Pick which suites you best, as you said the balance is a matter of opinion. Performance and weight/size has always been a trade off and always will unless we have a major breakthrough in physics xD

I get that it might not have the finesse and glamour as before but to me it still looks fantastic and the trade off in the slight weight and size difference to be able to do professional workflows on a laptop is worth it. But that is just my opinion. I get it is a slippery slope, I do hope we haven’t seen the last of the beautiful machines from Apple!

 

[leman]

The new models seem to make a good compromise between functionality and portability. Things I don’t like: MagSafe is a step in the totally wrong direction, and I am disappointed they brought it back. I also don’t like that we lost one universal port for HDMI 2.0, but I can live with it I guess. I like the notch

 

[Arsenikdote]

The new models seem to make a good compromise between functionality and portability. Things I don’t like: MagSafe is a step in the totally wrong direction, and I am disappointed they brought it back. I also don’t like that we lost one universal port for HDMI 2.0, but I can live with it I guess. I like the notch

We lost the TB port for the HDMI port AND the slow SD card reader, don’t forget about that

Out of curiosity, what don’t you like about MagSafe? I have only ever been a beneficiary of its quick release when my cables get snagged.

 

[leman]

A laptop first and foremost usability parameter is to be portable also as a workstation. The thicker and heavier it is the less it will move form your desk and defies the first goal of a laptop.

The new models are less than 1mm thicker and 200g heavier than the previous ones. It won’t have any practical impact on portability. They are still thinner than the original retina MBP, despite massive hardware upgrades.

Finding the balance between portability and secondary usability parameter is difficult and a matter of opinion.

I think these new models look very good from that perspective. They sacrifice very little but gain very much.

 

[alien3dx]

It’s not the point though. Not at all.
Firstly - you don’t need a HDMI dongle. You just need an HDMI to USBc wire.
Secondly, not everyone needs HDMI. This way everyone has to have HDMI. We lost a port that could be anything we wanted (including HDMI), and gained a port that can only be HDMI.

if you been like me broken few usb c hub/ wire . oh noo you dont.

 

[Gnattu]

In fact I won't say that we 'lost' one port because on Intel base Macs, Thunderbolt bandwidth is shared by the ports of the same side. However, on Apple Silicon, we have dedicated bandwidth for each port, so we are having 40Gbps more but not less. If you don't need the fastest port and just need a lot, just buy a Thunderbolt 4 hub with multiple downstream Thunderbolt ports like you are using a USB Hub.

 

[leman]

Out of curiosity, what don’t you like about MagSafe? I have only ever been a beneficiary of its quick release when my cables get snagged.

I don’t like the fact that it’s proprietary and that it’s limited to charging only. It was a great port back in the day, but I don’t see why it should exist today when we have USB-C and universal power delivery. Id rather have a fourth universal port. As to quick release, USB-C dislodges just as quickly in my experience…

But this is all moot, three USB-C are still more than plenty.

 

[leman]

We lost the TB port for the HDMI port AND the slow SD card reader, don’t forget about that

Right, what’s the performance of the card reader? Can’t find any clear info…

 

[senttoschool]

I actually agree with you. I'd rather have more Thunderbolt4 ports that I can convert to anything I want versus a large single-use port.
Heck, why can Apple put a huge HDMI port on the 16", but cannot afford to even put another USB-C port? Space shouldn't be an issue on the 16".

But what's done is done. I think as the first non-Ives-designed Macbook Pro, and also a platform to debut their Pro Apple Silicon chip, I'm guessing Apple needed to make a statement to their Pro market "hey, look, we hear you. Here are all the things you said you wanted. Don't forget us, as we love your money..."

Let's see what the redesigned Macbook Air would be. Imo Apple will be focusing more on design on that one, and thus thinner, USB-C only, and more wireless focused.

You realize that by adding MagSafe, you can have one free USBC?

Also, if you use a hub, you can extend one USBC into many

 

[matrix07]

The new MacBook Pro is thicker, heavier, with a Magsafe, an SD card reader and the biggest one: the HDMI 2.0 (not 2.1). The Touch Bar dream is gone, Giving way for the older function key row.
They also love protrusions, Triple on the iPhone camera and now the feet of the MacBook Pros look way more protruding than the previous version.
And let’s not talk about the unnecessarily wide notch without the face ID.

“ We believe in a wireless future“ said Jony five years ago.
Well the future looks like the past, with more ports and no touchbar. The new Macbook Pro is an updated 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina display rather than an evolution of the 2016 model.
The sleek and elegant chassis is lost.
The epitome of that vision was the 2015 12” inch MacBook, super thin with only one usb-c port. One could argue that it was a visionary device ahead of its time but that the path was indicated. Six years later and today apple killed that vision. Jony Ive is gone and his vision too.
Despite boasting less power hungry processors compared to Intel the device isn’t thinner than the 2016 MacBook Pro.
So long for minimalism. I really hope that this is only for the pro MacBooks and that we will see a super thin 12 inch device with only two USB-Cs.

Jony Ive is a flawed product manager. Plain and simple.

 

[Gnattu]

but I don’t see why it should exist today when we have USB-C and universal power delivery

I have dragged my USB cable hard for multiple times and already broke one cable. MagSafe could solve this problem for me.

 

[Arsenikdote]

I don’t like the fact that it’s proprietary and that it’s limited to charging only. It was a great port back in the day, but I don’t see why it should exist today when we have USB-C and universal power delivery. Id rather have a fourth universal port. As to quick release, USB-C dislodges just as quickly in my experience…

But this is all moot, three USB-C are still more than plenty.

Yeah I get the proprietary thing. I do wish that USB could come up with a standard that was like MagSafe. I have had my laptop fall on my floor twice from the cord not coming out easily enough. Luckily no damage. My buddy actually had to get his repaired due to it damaging the port. But we are road warriors to some degree so probably more likely to experience those situations.
Also, I would trade the HDMI and SD card reader for an extra TB port! When at my desk I don’t have enough ports with 4, let alone 3!! I am going to have to buy a second dock ??

 

[Imperial926]

There is a disconnect now between the philosophy of the new laptops with more ports and the SD card reader and the minimalistic MBA/13" MBP. I suspect that what most of us actually need is an M1 Mini with more ports plus a lower priced Apple monitor as many of us are now working mostly at home. The new laptops are no real use to me. If I plug them into a large screen I still come away knowing I just needed a properly specced Mini.

 

[Starfia]

The precedence of thinness, lightness and plainness over everything (which seemed to have reached its apex with the Core M MacBook) is now more evenly balanced against other factors. I'd say pros want the features they want, and they've understandably spoken up (or moved on) when Apple has seemed out of touch with that. Meanwhile, iPads and consumer-level Macs are now starkly powerful, sleek and thin. Jony Ive's influence is still clearly present in Apple design.

 

[iPadified]

Definitely feel that noise is a very important parameter for any computer and a laptop in particular because it’s going to be right there, in your face, at less than armlength distance.
A noisy laptop is a piss poor design in my world.

Which is all laptops except the M1 air. I have a 2014 MBP on my desk and the fan noise drives me crazy when having video conferencing. My very silent MP2013 died unfortunately. I hope the new MBP will be less noisy even during full load.

 

[Arsenikdote]

Right, what’s the performance of the card reader? Can’t find any clear info…

Nothing official but Apple has never had fast card readers. They will “support”
certain card types but then have a lackluster implementation of the throughput on the card reader. Maybe I am a little pessimistic, but each iteration of card reader has let me down so far, so I am chalking it up to experience and not pessimism ?

Also I have to deal with massive amounts of data so I am likely a bit more sensitive to the speed issues than the average person.

 

[xraydoc]

MacRumors: I hate that Apple removed extra ports and that now I have to use dongles all the time!

Also MacRumors: I hate that Apple added extra ports. Just use dongles instead!

 

[Arsenikdote]

MacRumors: I hate that Apple removed extra ports and that now I have to use dongles all the time!

Also MacRumors: I hate that Apple added extra ports. Just use dongles instead!

Different people, different opinions, different use cases….all existing on one forum!

 

[iPadified]

The new models are less than 10mm thicker and 200g heavier than the previous ones. It won’t have any practical impact on portability. They are still thinner than the original retina MBP, despite massive hardware upgrades.



I think these new models look very good from that perspective. They sacrifice very little but gain very much.

10 mm? That is a cm. It is not as bad as that is it? Can it work at full load with near silent fans, I agree it is worth the size changes. Will the M1 Pro/Max draw as much power as the i9/5600M then it makes sense with a size increase. Apple bragged about the power efficiency and yet they make larger and thicker MBP. Counter intuitive. Granted the MBP 2016-2020 was near catastrophic in thermals.

 

[Hadron]

The new models seem to make a good compromise between functionality and portability. Things I don’t like: MagSafe is a step in the totally wrong direction, and I am disappointed they brought it back. I also don’t like that we lost one universal port for HDMI 2.0, but I can live with it I guess. I like the notch

May not be a popular opinion here, but I agree. I've used MBPs with Magsafe and without and I've simply not missed it the last few years. Whereas the ability to plug the charger into either side of the machine, and to use a common charging cable for all of my equipment, has been a concrete benefit (and will be more so when I start travelling again). So for me the Magsafe is a somewhat retrograde move, though will only be a major annoyance if they've done something really stupid and removed the ability to charge through USB-C (or if they've done something terminally dumb and returned to chargers with a non-removable cable like the old magsafes used to have, so that you can only use the charger for one purpose and have to replace the whole thing when the plastic sheath around the cable splits - I really hope that bad old way is one we've seen the last of!).

HDMI I'm fine with, I'll use that (though as my port extender has that it's not a big deal). Likewise SD slot. And I don't like notches but the extra screen area is a plus. So it's really just Magsafe that's rather "meh" for me.

 

[Arsenikdote]

10 mm? That is a cm. It is not as bad as that is it? Can it work at full load with near silent fans, I agree it is worth the size changes. Will the M1 Pro/Max draw as much power as the i9/5600M then it makes sense with a size increase. Apple bragged about the power efficiency and yet they make larger and thicker MBP. Counter intuitive. Granted the MBP 2016-2020 was near catastrophic in thermals.

1.62cm vs 1.68cm…not sure where 10mm came from ? and that was

For the performance gain over the i9 (4x is the claim) and the increased battery life, the weight gain of 0.1kg seems reasonable, no?

 

[Arsenikdote]

May not be a popular opinion here, but I agree. I've used MBPs with Magsafe and without and I've simply not missed it the last few years. Whereas the ability to plug the charger into either side of the machine, and to use a common charging cable for all of my equipment, has been a concrete benefit (and will be more so when I start travelling again). So for me the Magsafe is a somewhat retrograde move, though will only be a major annoyance if they've done something really stupid and removed the ability to charge through USB-C (or if they've done something terminally dumb and returned to chargers with a non-removable cable like the old magsafes used to have, so that you can only use the charger for one purpose and have to replace the whole thing when the plastic sheath around the cable splits - I really hope that bad old way is one we've seen the last of!).

The TB ports all charge and the power brick has a USB C output. The only downside is to do fast charging on the 16” you have to use the MagSafe cable. Literally nothing was given up, only a MagSafe port added. The loss of the TB port was to support the HDMI and SD card reader.