Jony Ive’s vision was killed today

[zarathu]

The new MacBook Pro is thicker, heavier, with a Magsafe, an SD card reader and the biggest one: the HDMI 2.0 (not 2.1). The Touch Bar dream is gone, Giving way for the older function key row.
They also love protrusions, Triple on the iPhone camera and now the feet of the MacBook Pros look way more protruding than the previous version.
And let’s not talk about the unnecessarily wide notch without the face ID.

“ We believe in a wireless future“ said Jony five years ago.
Well the future looks like the past, with more ports and no touchbar. The new Macbook Pro is an updated 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina display rather than an evolution of the 2016 model.
The sleek and elegant chassis is lost.
The epitome of that vision was the 2015 12” inch MacBook, super thin with only one usb-c port. One could argue that it was a visionary device ahead of its time but that the path was indicated. Six years later and today apple killed that vision. Jony Ive is gone and his vision too.
Despite boasting less power hungry processors compared to Intel the device isn’t thinner than the 2016 MacBook Pro.
So long for minimalism. I really hope that this is only for the pro MacBooks and that we will see a super thin 12 inch device with only two USB-Cs.

You are living in the fake paradigm that Apple put out there to lull the Intels of the world to think that Apple was really just a fluff company resorting to just thinness, sexiness, and lightness, but was incapable of making much more than a middle to upper level laptop. Yeah, Apple could kill in the iPhone market, but in the PC market, Apple had given up and was happy to be dragged around by the nose with a string held by Intel and AMD.

This fake paradigm allowed Apple to make fine fair to above average laptops and desktops, while at the same time keeping their instant mac recognition, and most specifically, kept Intel and others from knowing what they were really doing in R&D behind the scenes. And now, Apple has jumped ahead, and just like the phone world, everyone else is playing catchup. By the time Intel catches up in 2 years, do you honestly think Apple will not have taken over the server market completely, and produced the M2Pro and M2ProMax, which will completely blow away the “1”. And then there is the massive explosion of software from the iPhone, and others who discover capabilities they could not do before.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It’s not the point though. Not at all.
Firstly - you don’t need a HDMI dongle. You just need an HDMI to USBc wire.
Secondly, not everyone needs HDMI. This way everyone has to have HDMI. We lost a port that could be anything we wanted (including HDMI), and gained a port that can only be HDMI.

Yes you do.
usb Alt mode (usb-c to hdmi) only supports hdmi 1.4b
And hdmi is not a legacy port and it’s never going away any time so as it’s the standard port on every TV, monitor or projector.
If you don’t like it you can always use a dock to get more USB 4 ports.
you can buy a HDMI to DP port.
mid we needed to buy a dongle/ dock to get useful ports why can you buy a dongle instead?

 

[Arsenikdote]

By the time Intel catches up in 2 years, do you honestly think Apple will not have taken over the server market completely, and produced the M2Pro and M2ProMax, which will completely blow away the “1”.

Huh? You think Apple will take over the server market? Uhhhhh....I mean I don't like to use words like "never" and "always" and such....but dang this is as close as I could get!! There is a 0.00000001% chance that the server market is going to move to ARM in two years.

Did you mean to say something else? I am so perplexed right now.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

A laptop first and foremost usability parameter is to be portable also as a workstation. The thicker and heavier it is the less it will move form your desk and defies the first goal of a laptop. Sure, there are other usability parameters but if you are considering ergonomic solution such as noise look elsewhere - ie desktops. All laptops perform worse than desktop on all usability parameters except portability. Finding the balance between portability and secondary usability parameter is difficult and a matter of opinion.

Fully agree that Ives vision took the MBP (and MP 2013) too far in Intel/AMD era and in reality he was designing for ASi. The M1 pro and Max would work well in a slimmer package. That the poor durability of the butterfly keyboard was not caught in QC is an enigma. Who did decide to let the butterfly keyboard pass? Any evidence it was Ive alone?

That is why god gave us.
the MacBook Pro as the work horse, usable ports, massive battery and power to boot.

or the MacBook Air. Tremendous power but slim and portable.

remember that if you need to have dongles to use your laptop it’s no longer as portable compared to it being built in. And it’s better to have options than one fits all solutions.
And it was not Ives fault but likely driven by his design esthetics and likely Yes men who didn’t dare to say no

 

[SeenJeen]

Jonathan Ive still consults for Apple. For all we know his firm was heavily involved with the new MBP design.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Brilliant. So now we’re back to square one but with a separate portion of users requiring a dock/dongle so the whinging few can plug an sd card or hdmi directly in.

How can you come to that conclusion? What did you lose by usability with 3 USB-C ports instead of 4?
Port 1 port likely used to charge
Port 2 for an extra screen
Port 3 for a dock/phone/Ethernet/ random dongle
And port 4 is free

now we can put power in Mgsafe
HDMI for every TV/ projector in existence.
port 1 can be used for a screen, and daisy chain more if you have thunderbolt screens
Port 2 with a dock
Port 3 is free.

now I’m what scenario do you need a dock/ dongle for that one extra missing port?

 

[Arsenikdote]

How can you come to that conclusion? What did you lose by usability with 3 USB-C ports instead of 4?
Port 1 port likely used to charge
Port 2 for an extra screen
Port 3 for a dock/phone/Ethernet/ random dongle
And port 4 is free

now we can put power in Mgsafe
HDMI for every TV/ projector in existence.
port 1 can be used for a screen, and daisy chain more if you have thunderbolt screens
Port 2 with a dock
Port 3 is free.

now I’m what scenario do you need a dock/ dongle for that one extra missing port?

I would have loved the 4th TB port, I am not complaining though because the new laptop will crush my workflow and I love it!!

However, I use all four ports now AND have to use a dock. I run four external displays, external storage, ethernet, stupid Logitech dongle (BT has too much interference), charge through one of the TB ports, and a few small other items. I would love to have 6 TB ports! I don't need an HDMI port since I would use it 2% of the time and I would be fine carrying a dongle for that. I don't need the SD card reader since not only do I use express cards more than sd cards, but also I have never found Apple's implementation of a card reader to be faster or even as fast as the high end external options. I already have to wait a stupid amount of time getting data off cards so the internal reader is likely out for me.

I am VERY likely not typical, but there you have it! I want more TB!

 

[leman]

How can you come to that conclusion? What did you lose by usability with 3 USB-C ports instead of 4?
Port 1 port likely used to charge
Port 2 for an extra screen
Port 3 for a dock/phone/Ethernet/ random dongle
And port 4 is free

now we can put power in Mgsafe
HDMI for every TV/ projector in existence.
port 1 can be used for a screen, and daisy chain more if you have thunderbolt screens
Port 2 with a dock
Port 3 is free.

now I’m what scenario do you need a dock/ dongle for that one extra missing port?

Well, I use one port for charging+display+keyboard+mouse. One port goes to Ethernet. This leaves me with only one port on the new machines, so if I want to attach my backup disk, and someone comes to me with an external disk containing some data (it does happen here and there), now I will need to unplug something. On my current 16” I still have a USB port free. All the new ports, useful as they might be, don’t give me any extra utility in this common office scenario. I could maybe connect the Ethernet to the display, but I don’t have a proper adapter, plus, I’m not sure how good the monitor USB hub is.

 

[theorist9]

How can you come to that conclusion? What did you lose by usability with 3 USB-C ports instead of 4?
Port 1 port likely used to charge
Port 2 for an extra screen
Port 3 for a dock/phone/Ethernet/ random dongle
And port 4 is free

now we can put power in Mgsafe
HDMI for every TV/ projector in existence.
port 1 can be used for a screen, and daisy chain more if you have thunderbolt screens
Port 2 with a dock
Port 3 is free.

now I’m what scenario do you need a dock/ dongle for that one extra missing port?

One scenario is if you're using 3 x 6k external monitors, where each one would need to be driven by its own TB port. Then, if you had a 4th TB port, you could connect it directly to a USB dock. But with the current config, you'd instead need to spend $100-$200 to buy a TB dock, where you could connect both one of the 6k monitors, along with USB, to it. But chances are if you can afford 3 x 6k monitors, the cost of a good-quality TB dock won't be an issue.

And once you set up this dock there would be no inconvenience, since when you were returning your MBP to the desktop you'd be pluggin in a TB cable from a dock instead of from one of the monitors.

 

[cupcakes2000]

How can you come to that conclusion? What did you lose by usability with 3 USB-C ports instead of 4?

Well, we lose a usbc port? What a silly question.

 

[theorist9]

By the time Intel catches up in 2 years, do you honestly think Apple will not have taken over the server market completely,

I don't--not at all. Amazon has been very aggressive in developing the efficiency of its Graviton ARM server chips, essentially doing in the server space what Apple has been doing in the PC/smartphone space. Plus Apple has a pre-existing customer base for its ARM chips in the PC/smartphone space. It doesn't have this in the server space. So even if Apple wanted to compete in the server space, which it doesn't seem to, it wouldn't have the advantages it does with its PC's and smartphones.

[Here I'm using "PC" to mean personal computer generally, not wintel specifically.]

 

[trickness]

On his watch, pro MacBooks so stupidly thin the performance was throttled, crap keyboards, ports removed, and that useless touch strip added. I for one don't miss his "vision"

 

[Internaut]

Ive is a big proponent of the computer as an appliance (even for technical uses) and there is a place for this. There is also a place for alternative views and it is good that Apple now nods to one of these. The ports are welcome and that little extra thickness they demand is the perfect excuse for a bigger battery. I see the 14” as a near perfect balance and the 16” as niche.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I would have loved the 4th TB port, I am not complaining though because the new laptop will crush my workflow and I love it!!

However, I use all four ports now AND have to use a dock. I run four external displays, external storage, ethernet, stupid Logitech dongle (BT has too much interference), charge through one of the TB ports, and a few small other items. I would love to have 6 TB ports! I don't need an HDMI port since I would use it 2% of the time and I would be fine carrying a dongle for that. I don't need the SD card reader since not only do I use express cards more than sd cards, but also I have never found Apple's implementation of a card reader to be faster or even as fast as the high end external options. I already have to wait a stupid amount of time getting data off cards so the internal reader is likely out for me.

I am VERY likely not typical, but there you have it! I want more TB!

That is quite impresive and you defenetly sound like in the need for a desktop than a laptop xD
But actualy you can run 6 monitors on one port. Proof Mac mini and macbook air m1 so that might help you xD

Well, I use one port for charging+display+keyboard+mouse. One port goes to Ethernet. This leaves me with only one port on the new machines, so if I want to attach my backup disk, and someone comes to me with an external disk containing some data (it does happen here and there), now I will need to unplug something. On my current 16” I still have a USB port free. All the new ports, useful as they might be, don’t give me any extra utility in this common office scenario. I could maybe connect the Ethernet to the display, but I don’t have a proper adapter, plus, I’m not sure how good the monitor USB hub is.

well now you can use that one port for Ethernet as you can use MagSafe for charging. you can have six devices per port. unless you monitor is't a Tb display you can just use the HDMI for the extra screen. Mgsafe for charging, and a15$ USB-c ethernet hub with extra usb 3 ports. Now you still have two TB 4 ports free to plug in two usb-c disks and a standard usb 3.0 port. then again i dont know what ports your monitor have.

One scenario is if you're using 3 x 6k external monitors, where each one would need to be driven by its own TB port. Then, if you had a 4th TB port, you could connect it directly to a USB dock. But with the current config, you'd instead need to spend $100-$200 to buy a TB dock, where you could connect both one of the 6k monitors, along with USB, to it. But chances are if you can afford 3 x 6k monitors, the cost of a good-quality TB dock won't be an issue.

well Thunderbolt 4 uses Displayport 2.0 and it supports 3x10K (10240 × 4320) displays @ 60 Hz and 10 bpc (30 bit/px, HDR) RGB/Y′CBCR 4:4:4 color (with DSC) on one cable

so with the new TB4 ports you could ether connect Two Pro res XDR monitors with no DSC per port. or 4 PRO RES XDR per port with DSC with usb 2.0 Hub speeds(what apple have now in the display you referenced)

or Two Pro res XDR per port iwth DSC but with full TB 3 speeds for the USB C ports.

And once you set up this dock there would be no inconvenience, since when you were returning your MBP to the desktop you'd be pluggin in a TB cable from a dock instead of from one of the monitors.

Actualy this is a DP 1.4/TB3 limitation that you need one display per port.
with Displayport 2/ Thunderbolt 4 you would need only two ports
Port 1= 2x6k external monitors(with DSC) with full 6x USB 3.1 speed ports
Port 2= 1x6k external monitors(uncompressed) with full 3x USB 3.1 speed ports

and you would still have one left in the computer. Or you would just use a Thunderbolt 4 hub that uses two ports to connect everything untill apple uppdates their displays with the new port.

 

[Arsenikdote]

That is quite impresive and you defenetly sound like in the need for a desktop than a laptop xD
But actualy you can run 6 monitors on one port. Proof Mac mini and macbook air m1 so that might help you xD

LOL, yeah it sad to say that is my laptop setup at the office and I have a separate desktop setup at home. I have had to have a laptop for when I travel, but now with the M1 Max I believe I can get rid of my desktop setup and just use my laptop in both environments. Going to be so fantastic!!

Ha! I remember that video!! I have actually played around a bit with my setup, the biggest issue is that I would need to purchase more adapters, connectors, etc... because I already use a dock and it is max'd out and I will be purchasing a second one as soon as it comes back in stock. My setup is far too complicated I need to downsize A LOT!

 

[Pro Apple Silicon]

A laptop first and foremost usability parameter is to be portable also as a workstation. The thicker and heavier it is the less it will move form your desk and defies the first goal of a laptop.

Nah. It needs to be portable. That is all. Going smaller thinner and lighter does not make it more portable. It only makes it less capable and thus more useless.

These aren't mobile devices. You don't hold them in your hand while using them like an iPhone or iPad. The size and weight is not a huge factor. The device is used on a desk or a lap. A couple millimeters and a pound or two here or there have no bearing on its portability.

 

[Pro Apple Silicon]

I would have loved the 4th TB port

An indefensible comment, honestly. How tf are you filling up 3 Thunderbolt ports and in need of a 4th? It doesn't even make sense. If you're at a desk, you shouldn't be using more than 1 port anyway since there are 6 years worth of hubs that make it so you can use 1 cable and 1 port.

 

[KPOM]

Nah. It needs to be portable. That is all. Going smaller thinner and lighter does not make it more portable. It only makes it less capable and thus more useless.

These aren't mobile devices. You don't hold them in your hand while using them like an iPhone or iPad. The size and weight is not a huge factor. The device is used on a desk or a lap. A couple millimeters and a pound or two here or there have no bearing on its portability.

Weight absolutely affects portability. I used to carry my 2 lb 12” MacBook as a personal computer along with my work-issued PC on trips. I wouldn’t do that with a 3.5 lb MacBook Pro, and even the 2.8 lb MacBook Air is pushing it. But even as a sole computer, a 4.7 lb MacBook Pro is less portable than a 3.5 lb MacBook Pro, which in turn is less portable than a 2.8 lb MacBook Air.

 

[KPOM]

Or you would just use a Thunderbolt 4 hub that uses two ports to connect everything untill apple uppdates their displays with the new port.

You are suggesting making up for a lack of ports by using an adapter. Isn’t that what proponents of the 4TB MacBook Pros have been suggesting since 2016 for people who want to connect legacy devices?

 

[Arsenikdote]

An indefensible comment, honestly. How tf are you filling up 3 Thunderbolt ports and in need of a 4th? It doesn't even make sense. If you're at a desk, you shouldn't be using more than 1 port anyway since there are 6 years worth of hubs that make it so you can use 1 cable and 1 port.

Are you trying to get a reaction or being serious? If you are serious, there is a lot of professionals that use systems that you must have no idea about


You understand that hubs just split the bandwidth, right?
You have heard of external RAID enclosures? External graphics rigs for reference monitors? Duplication of data sets for redundancy while processing workflows?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

You are suggesting making up for a lack of ports by using an adapter. Isn’t that what proponents of the 4TB MacBook Pros have been suggesting since 2016 for people who want to connect legacy devices?

no, it's just that apple's Pro res XDR 6k monitor still uses TB3.
you could just as easily use a TB3 splitter(when they come) as the monitor itself have hardware limitation because apple's Pro res XDR 6k display maxes out TB3 making it incapable to daisy-chain anything faster than USB 2.

Or just use 3 x 4k external monitors or 4 on one port with DSC
or upgrade to 3 x 8k external monitors on two ports and DSC when the new monitors are released and still be able to use the ports on monitors att full ubs 3.1 speeds(isntead of USB 2.0)

 

[Born Again]

The 2016 MacBook Pro was a daring machine. Betting everything on four USB-C, massive trackpad, and the Touch Bar. This one reverts back to many ports and standard function keys!

But twas a failure in design

 

[Born Again]

Obviously a "hot take", but I can see your point and I also disagree. I think adding an SD card reader is a step backwards. Mostly because it isn't the fast version anyway so professionals will still need to use an external reader.

The HDMI port is mildly convenient, but I would rather have the flexibility of the TB4 port and use a dongle than to have Apple lock me into a port I would rarely use. 2.0 vs 2.1? No big deal for professionals since we will be connecting to our pro displays using TB.

I didn't love or hate the Touch Bar. It just seemed to never be that useful. Even if more apps had adopted it, it always felt like more work to use it vs just moving my mouse and using the gigantic touch pad instead. It was "innovative" but I don't really think it was very core to the vision of the MacBook. I guess though going "back" to physical keys could seem like a step backwards but I see it as more of a step sideways since the viability of the Touch Bar never seemed to materialize. I think that was more of a "live and learn" and not a "moving backwards" type thing.

Protrusions.....yeah the iPhone 13 Pro is OUT OF CONTROL with that bump! xD I am hoping the feet for the new laptop look better in person, otherwise very valid point!

So on those fronts I think the vision of the laptop pushing a "wireless future" blah blah stuff is true. MagSafe never should have been removed, so glad that is back. Sure it isn't as minimalist as just plan TB ports, but not loosing your laptop off the table is a good trade off in my opinion. But maybe another concession there

I am not sure what people's fascination with worrying about the notch it. Apple has it disappearing in fullscreen mode. Since I use all of my pro apps in full screen on the different monitors, including the built in one, I won't ever see it thanks to their programming. Even if I did see it, and I didn't like it, I would just apple a wallpaper with a black bar at the top and it is gone. Just such a strange thing to get this much attention when it is really a non-issue.

But the fact that they made the laptop more usable for professionals by ever so slightly increasing the size....good! The ability for creative professionals to now do full workflows from a laptop is exactly what we expect from Apple. Pushing those boundaries to unheard of levels all while maintaining essentially the MacBook form factor. Truly awesome and so happy for the upgrade!!

Are you a proponent of being touch to the mbp?

 

[jjcs]

Huh? You think Apple will take over the server market? Uhhhhh....I mean I don't like to use words like "never" and "always" and such....but dang this is as close as I could get!! There is a 0.00000001% chance that the server market is going to move to ARM in two years.

Did you mean to say something else? I am so perplexed right now.

They aren't even going to get back into the server market. Not a chance.

 

[hasanahmad]

Here is how I see it . Steve Jobs wanted function and form to be at equilibrium so he always controlled ive from going overboard . after jobs died Ive’s idea of form over function took over and macs got thinner and thinner and performance of these devices suffered. Mind you the Ive probably hatred the iPhone camera bump but Apple had no choice , stay behind the competition in cameras or just be a beautiful device

now that federighi has more control the ports are back .