Just an angry switcher....

[hulugu]

I have been suffering from a loud, scratching fan noise in my MBP for the last two weeks...If I would just have bought one of those crappy Dell plastic boxes, I would even have in-home repair service...Did Apple strike a camp in the desert of service?

Herman, that sucks and it's unfair that you've been stuck with not only a flaky laptop, but CS reps who don't know how to talk to customers and that's a shame. My personal experience with Apple has been very good, so I cannot account for why you were jerked around. However, I wish you all the best and hope your problem is fixed quickly and to your satisfaction.

As for Dell, I've had DOAs machines, a CS rep who wanted me to pull the power-supply and send it back to them (without a replacement in hand ), flaky laptops, and I literally spent an entire day's work on hold or talking with CS reps in order to get one machine replaced. Dell doesn't get a cookie either.

 

[hulugu]

How many of these other forumers have gone through a total of FOUR toyotas? Or BMWs? What are the odds that any good systems exists if someone can get 4 duds in a row?

Likewise what are the odds that Apple decided that the flaws fall way under the perceptiveness of Dell switchovers and that it is better for the figures to cut corners and boost the margins a little.

Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but only a completely dead transmission or engine allows for the complete replacement of a car. But, that's neither here nor there. My point is, MacRumors is not the place to learn about the relative statistical problems of the MacBook Pro because you're dealing with a self-selected group of people.
I'm not saying that the MBP isn't screwed up, I'm saying we just don't know why, nor do we know how large the problem is. Everything thus far, including your statement is conjecture.

And, yes it is entirely possible however unlikely for one person to get four duds. It's unlikely, but possible for Herman (and other MR posters) to have gotten almost every bad MacBook Pro, statistically speaking. Now, I wouldn't bet on it, and I've advised people to wait for Rev. B with both the MBP and the MBs.

 

[Sesshi]

I've been having similar issues with CS here in the UK.

Honeymoon period with the Macs having passed, I've started to have a lot of hardware problems with my machines.

Since the start of this year, I've bought 6 Macs. Of those, one was a DOA and 2 have developed problems of a terminal nature in the last two weeks, and one has a non-terminal accessory issue as of yesterday. Arguably even the non-terminally failed MBP could be raised as an issue for various reasons, especially the 50+C (this is in the burn range) potential of the bottom of the laptop and the top of the keyboard.

I won't go into the minutiae of my issues with Applecare so far but the BIGGEST difference is how the different manufacturers dealt with support calls and how much that support costs. As a very simple but typical comparative example, the failed Dell laptop PSU was solved by an overnight dispatch of a PSU. The replacement Apple 85W PSU should reach me 'within the next 7 days, typically 3 days'. The Apple Store couldn't help as they apparently had no spares to supply. 3 days is not quick enough so I will have to venture out tomorrow to purchase a PSU from an Apple Reseller. Even back in the days when you had to pay extra for next-day 3-year Latitude support from Dell, it was in the region of £150 extra. It's now included. In the case of the Macbook Pro, Applecare is £275 - and because of the woeful support, I have to pay £60 extra on top of that to buy a spare that I shouldn't need to buy, and furthermore be unable to receive support on Procare that I paid a further £80 or whatever for.

As good as the OS is and as productive I am with the change, even I have to start to wonder if I'm being ripped off with the hardware. I might even have to give the 'illegal' running of OS X in Windows (Specifically Dell or Sony) hardware a try.

 

[Demoman]

What is "like" Apple? Precisely this. Locked in platform, shoddy hardware.

Why don't all you Dell promoters give it up. The products speak for themselves and your attempt to chase away new buyers is pathetic. It is even stupid. People come here AFTER they buy the product. Tell your bosses to make better products and act like professionals and they will stop the hemorrhaging. I am happy to say that I just told our Dell sales rep that he lost the order for 19 desktops, 2 file servers and 4 laptops to Apple. All he managed to say was OK. I think he may have been going into convulsions.

 

[Demoman]

I had four black iPod nanos lined up in front of me a couple of weeks ago (two of mine and two of some friends of mine), all build within the same month. Now each of their displays was looking differently, whereas one of them was almost white compared to the others. If you look at Apple's profit margin (especially with the iPods), they should at least be able to get something like quality control straight.

Concerning their product design: Yes, they are far ahead of the competition.

But just take a look at the present (or MacRumor's forums): Almost 50% of the people buying a mac the last quarter were switchers. But now they have a superior OS in a piece of expensive, malfunctioning hardware. Where's the point in that? Not to mention their customer service.

Now is that a good switching campaign? I highly doubt it.

You sir, should not be posting on an empty tank of neuro-receptors. Or, is this just by pre-meditated design? We have witnessed too many political smear campaigns in this country to not recognize your methods.

 

[dsnort]

But just take a look at the present (or MacRumor's forums): Almost 50% of the people buying a mac the last quarter were switchers. But now they have a superior OS in a piece of expensive, malfunctioning hardware. Where's the point in that? Not to mention their customer service.

I am truly sorry you are having a bad experience. I too am a recent switcher, having bought an iMac and a Macbook in the last six months. I have had no problems with either. They seem really well built, and work flawlessly. The last computers I had before these were a Gateway desktop and a Dell laptop. To say that you would be better off if you had bought a Dell is questionable to me as my experience tells me that they have quality issues too. The cd Drive on my dell quit after 3 months, it took several phone calls, and 3 weeks to get a warranty replacement, which i had to install, ( it was easy). The replacement lasted 11 months, at which time I spent approximately 40 minutes on hold just to talk to the person who would supposedly help me determine what component was available to replace the defective one, ( the original drive type was no longer available!). I eventually hung up, and drove to the Apple store. I have never looked back. Any manufacturer can put out a problem piece of equipment, even though others in the line are fine. The difference is that Apple has forums where all the complaints can be gathered in one place.

PS My wifes sister has a Toyota that spends a lot of time in the shop. It's a lemon, maybe the only one Toyota ever built?

 

[brikeh]

Christ people, stop defending apple when people come on here with REAL issues. Apple has QC issues...thats a fact. Hope they sort it out for you Herman

 

[brikeh]

You sir, should not be posting on an empty tank of neuro-receptors. Or, is this just by pre-meditated design? We have witnessed too many political smear campaigns in this country to not recognize your methods.

Yeah...its all a big conspiracy against Apple. Get real

 

[Sesshi]

Why don't all you Dell promoters give it up. The products speak for themselves and your attempt to chase away new buyers is pathetic. It is even stupid. People come here AFTER they buy the product. Tell your bosses to make better products and act like professionals and they will stop the hemorrhaging. I am happy to say that I just told our Dell sales rep that he lost the order for 19 desktops, 2 file servers and 4 laptops to Apple. All he managed to say was OK. I think he may have been going into convulsions.

I don't think you quite understand. I can't talk for Herman but some of us hold Dell as the low tide mark in terms of service. They are cheap and I expect cheap. It doesn't change the fact that Dell can get to me a laptop PSU (a rather critical component of a computer although it's not actually the computer itself) the next day on it's standard next business day service, while Apple says "you might or might not get it in 3".

Maybe your fictional rep was going into convulsions. In my case, Dell or Apple aren't really going to care one way or another where I get my 3-4 laptops and a similar number of desktops for the next 3 years from (my server orders will be always Dell or HP, unless XServe does Windows Server), but purely on the basis of service vs reliability vs cost I have to either look at buying more Macs / standard accessories than necessary so that I keep spares and look at getting refunds on the so-far-rubbish Applecare, or switch back (a fairly unlikely scenario at this point).

Undoubtedly Dell hardware is inferior in design and execution. And yet while OSX/Apple is more productive than a Windows/Dell combo, a dead / mulfunctioning Apple is less productive than a live Dell. My experience with Applecare so far when I really needed it is that it is even lower than that I thought was the low tide set by Dell.

I have a dead Macbook which might apparently be replaced 'in a week or so' and the Macbook Pro is out of juice until I get a working PSU. I've decided to go out and buy both Macbook and MBP PSU today from an Apple Reseller, and I'll decide what to do with the spares later when the repairs/replacements come back. I've also got a dead iMac in the other apartment but well, there is still another iMac alive over there - but I'm not over there right now. This post therefore comes to you courtesy of IE6 on a 2-year-old Sony VAIO which has never had a single problem (like most other VAIO's I've owned). Dells may have been a little more problematic but their service has actually been worth a damn at all times.

I think more than any other board people are want to post both positive and negative experiences on MacRumors. My general Apple experience has been quite revelatory in seeing how much more effective I am in everyday working with just an OS change. However with the machines around me dropping like flies in the last two weeks, and even allowing for the fact that this is a fluke Apple's inability to resolve the issues to my satisfaction in what I consider to be a timely manner is certainly giving me food for thought.

I suspect I have fully drank the Kool-Aid and that I will find a way around Apple's support on the occasions that it is as crappy as it is now at my own expense - despite the support issues I don't think I can go back to working every day on a Dell or even a Sony - but such inadequacies do rankle when you expect a certain level of service and quality from Apple.

Hope you get your problems sorted out Herman. Your experience may be particularly bad but who knows, even for you it may still be worth it in the end.

 

[HermanTheGerman]

You sir, should not be posting on an empty tank of neuro-receptors. Or, is this just by pre-meditated design? We have witnessed too many political smear campaigns in this country to not recognize your methods.

And you, Sir, are probably one of those who got lured by them into a trap.

Apple is not divine. No matter what you want to make us believe. And no, I am not not on an empty tank of neuro-receptors. I really hope that you are not either.

 

[generik]

Why don't all you Dell promoters give it up. The products speak for themselves and your attempt to chase away new buyers is pathetic. It is even stupid. People come here AFTER they buy the product. Tell your bosses to make better products and act like professionals and they will stop the hemorrhaging. I am happy to say that I just told our Dell sales rep that he lost the order for 19 desktops, 2 file servers and 4 laptops to Apple. All he managed to say was OK. I think he may have been going into convulsions.

Perhaps the rep went into convulsions, perhaps you over evaluated your own perception of self.

19 desktops, 2 file servers, and 4 laptops?

Seriously, in Dell unit costs, is that even a 50G order? Wait till your small company hires 10s of thousands of people spread over 5 continents. Oh yes, and by the way, those real professionals use Dell. Find me a company that runs an all Apple shop and I will find you ten who run all Dell, at 10 or even 100 times the workstation count.

I don't think you quite understand. I can't talk for Herman but some of us hold Dell as the low tide mark in terms of service. They are cheap and I expect cheap. It doesn't change the fact that Dell can get to me a laptop PSU (a rather critical component of a computer although it's not actually the computer itself) the next day on it's standard next business day service, while Apple says "you might or might not get it in 3".

Hear hear Demoman, and try getting that Apple tech to remove that hard drive from your MBP when you send it back in for servicing only to stare at his pockmarked blank face, nevermind the fact that he will probably disappear behind the counter for 15 minutes to remove that 27 screws holding your drive in. Big boys like IBM and Dell on the other hand do it like real pros, they understand enterprise needs, not some hippy cute fruit branded computers.

Yeah...its all a big conspiracy against Apple. Get real

Yeah brikeh, everyone speaking against Apple must be on Dell's or Microsoft's payroll. Gosh, nobody has any reason to say anything negative about Macs and Apple Corporation

 

[Sesshi]

Hear hear Demoman, and try getting that Apple tech to remove that hard drive from your MBP when you send it back in for servicing only to stare at his pockmarked blank face, nevermind the fact that he will probably disappear behind the counter for 15 minutes to remove that 27 screws holding your drive in. Big boys like IBM and Dell on the other hand do it like real pros, they understand enterprise needs, not some hippy cute fruit branded computers.

I would imagine all of these machines are designed for ease of assembly / disassembly. I've seen both done and I would imagine it takes just as much effort to get into an Apple as it does a Dell. I think that potentially the QC and definitely the level of service offered vs amount paid in relation to other manufacturers are the real issues at hand.

 

[hulugu]

Perhaps the rep went into convulsions, perhaps you over evaluated your own perception of self.

19 desktops, 2 file servers, and 4 laptops?

Seriously, in Dell unit costs, is that even a 50G order? Wait till your small company hires 10s of thousands of people spread over 5 continents. Oh yes, and by the way, those real professionals use Dell. Find me a company that runs an all Apple shop and I will find you ten who run all Dell, at 10 or even 100 times the workstation count.



Hear hear Demoman, and try getting that Apple tech to remove that hard drive from your MBP when you send it back in for servicing only to stare at his pockmarked blank face, nevermind the fact that he will probably disappear behind the counter for 15 minutes to remove that 27 screws holding your drive in. Big boys like IBM and Dell on the other hand do it like real pros, they understand enterprise needs, not some hippy cute fruit branded computers.



Yeah brikeh, everyone speaking against Apple must be on Dell's or Microsoft's payroll. Gosh, nobody has any reason to say anything negative about Macs and Apple Corporation

Are you serious? First, you trot out the well-worn Macs are "hippy cute fruit branded computers" that are different from the "big boys like IBM and Dell." Obviously, those of us who use Macs professionally are engaged in large-scale make-believe. Thanks for telling me, I'll make sure to get monopoly money the next time I cash my paycheck.

Secondly, according to your tortured posting, unless a company has "10s of thousands of people spread over 5 continents" it doesn't matter to Dell and that's simply not true. Dell's small business reps work to very hard to nab even small accounts, including one I helped build that was around $15K. So yes, a small business rep would be very pissed at losing an account to anyone (although HP is their current nemesis).

Thirdly, what the hell does Dell's understanding of the Holy Grail, or "Enterprise Needs" (bow accordingly), help the personal user? Oh that's right, exactly jack. I have yet to see the Dell store where I can bring in my teetering Inspiron and get the hard-drive swapped out. Oh right, you can't, instead you use the "Enterprise" cardboard box with the "Enterprise" packing foam.

You haven't critiqued Apple, instead you've taken to swinging away at anyone who even remotely suggest that Dell is crap, just like any other fanboy. Does Dell really blow that much cool air up your skirt?

 

[hulugu]

And you, Sir, are probably one of those who got lured by them into a trap.

Apple is not divine. No matter what you want to make us believe. And no, I am not not on an empty tank of neuro-receptors. I really hope that you are not either.

Apple's divine providence has yet to be achieved.

Have you had any luck yet?

Hopefully this gets sorted out for you, and please let us know either way.

 

[Lixivial]

"Just an angry switcher", indeed.

No American or German assembly worker would have committed such a crime, so I guess you can blame that on Apple's quality control in China (which I highly doubt is even existing at all).

Is where you lost me, and I failed to take you seriously thereafter. Thankfully this came before a good majority of your words (and a good portion of this thread, as it's become ridiculous). It's a crime? Quality control is non-existant? Are you serious?

You want an easy fix for this? Get your money back or sell your MBP on eBay and use the 3000 dollars to buy a $499 Dell and swim around in your remaining $2500 dollars. Your time was wasted, yes, and it's unfortunate Apple lost a customer, but what can we do about it? It's out of our control here.

Judging by your understandably frustrated response, I can also understand why you may have received a reciprocal tone from AppleCare. You called into question their competency, you insulted their intelligence and you vented YOUR frustrations with Apple onto them, as if they were somehow responsible. And this is simply judging from your diatribe here, I can only imagine what you said at the height of your anger. No wonder they made you listen to music for 35 minutes.

It's your thought of self-entitlement that is getting in the way here. 3,000 dollars is quite an investment and you deserve proper customer support, but it sounds to me that Apple is doing everything they can. If it's not good enough, then get your money back.

Anyroad, carry on, because I'm truly enjoying the argument that this is somehow related to Apple's supposed conspiracy against corporate customers and being only relegated to a "hippy-cultured" computer. What's awesome, too, is the thought that only "real professionals" use Dell -- I guess that negates those shops who use HP/Compaq or any other third party?! Man, this is good stuff.

Dell, too, has issues with meeting the needs of its enterprise users, but that'd be a write-up for another day.

Christ people, stop defending apple when people come on here with REAL issues. Apple has QC issues...thats a fact. Hope they sort it out for you Herman

It's not a matter of defending Apple. No company should be defended as though it were a life or death matter, it's a point of calling out the obvious fallacies in these arguments. There are a great number of them in this thread. Just look at this sample of melodrama:

Hear hear Demoman, and try getting that Apple tech to remove that hard drive from your MBP when you send it back in for servicing only to stare at his pockmarked blank face, nevermind the fact that he will probably disappear behind the counter for 15 minutes to remove that 27 screws holding your drive in. Big boys like IBM and Dell on the other hand do it like real pros, they understand enterprise needs, not some hippy cute fruit branded computers.

 

[DevilsRejection]

from a company who sells less than 3 million machines a year, of course their international support is going to be useless

should have gotten a thinkpad

 

[A.Fairhead]

The MBP has had its fair share of problems; keeping in mind that it was a big changing point, though, the first completely redesigned machine for Intel processors.

They've been a bit hit and miss recently, sure - I'm sure you knew that prior to your purchase, though; it's pasted all over these message boards.

Until the MBP stops teething, you'll be buying that machine with the acknowledgement that things may well go wrong.

There are an increasing number of happy MBP customers appearing, it seems, though; this suggests that the problems are being fixed, and that Apple are responding to the problems we've been seeing.

Put it down to teething problems, and buy another machine or wait until the device has matured.

 

[DevilsRejection]

The MBP has had its fair share of problems; keeping in mind that it was a big changing point, though, the first completely redesigned machine for Intel processors.

They've been a bit hit and miss recently, sure - I'm sure you knew that prior to your purchase, though; it's pasted all over these message boards.

Until the MBP stops teething, you'll be buying that machine with the acknowledgement that things may well go wrong.

There are an increasing number of happy MBP customers appearing, it seems, though; this suggests that the problems are being fixed, and that Apple are responding to the problems we've been seeing.

Put it down to teething problems, and buy another machine or wait until the device has matured.

in essence when you buy apple hardware you have to check with the apple community to see if the hardware works right!

when the community says its fine then buy it by all means!

thank god apple doesn't make cars, holy hell

 

[macenforcer]

Apple quality has gone down hill and I don't see them coming back up. I got lucky with my macbook though. No problems.

 

[Sesshi]

I also ought to add to my 'can't go back' also the Thinkpad X series (40 I think) that I had. May be bombproof, but compromises on everything else to achieve that. Overweight for what it is and underfeatured for the form factor. Given the choice of a TRUE ultraportable if I didn't need an optical drive, I'll plump for a Samsung Q30.

 

[DevilsRejection]

I also ought to add to my 'can't go back' also the Thinkpad X series (40 I think) that I had. May be bombproof, but compromises on everything else to achieve that. Overweight for what it is and underfeatured for the form factor. Given the choice of a TRUE ultraportable if I didn't need an optical drive, I'll plump for a Samsung Q30.

Samsung, IBM, whatever, you have freedom of choice in the PC world.

Welcome to Mac land, where the vertical monopoly is all we have on the menu today!

Would you like the mooing cow model or the spicy hot testicular cancer model

 

[brikeh]

It's not a matter of defending Apple. No company should be defended as though it were a life or death matter, it's a point of calling out the obvious fallacies in these arguments. There are a great number of them in this thread. Just look at this sample of melodrama:

Yeah I understand that but people on these boards get a little rabid at times, QC is an issue. I couldnt care less about IBM or Dell, I buy Macs.
Im staying clear of the MBP for now....

 

[generik]

Yeah I understand that but people on these boards get a little rabid at times, QC is an issue. I couldnt care less about IBM or Dell, I buy Macs.
Im staying clear of the MBP for now....

Hopefully with the next revision things improve somewhat. What really cracks me up though is those people who just look at the name MacBook Pro and conclude that it must be for Pros, for running Pro apps, for Professionals. The same way that only Quicktime Pro can play videos full screen! You need to make money out of watching videos to use such functionality!

Sorry guys, just because Apple's marketing says so doesn't make it true. If I feel like it I can be running FCP on a Macbook Non Pro for all I want. And likewise the Pro in Macbook Pro really doesn't justify quite a fair bit of these issues.

Things are improving.. sure, but to call this Pro? A EOS 1 series camera, that's pro. Ditto for a Nikon D2 series camera, not to offend the Nikonians. That's pro too. Likewise I'd say an AK-47 is pretty pro, although in my experience I can't say the same for an American M-16, but hey, I digress. But a Macbook Pro? Pro? Can you depend on it? Is it absolutely reliable?

Ha!

A Thinkpad is a lot more pro than this. You can drop it, run it over with a truck, throw it out in the woods and let the elements have a go at it for a month, and pick it up and have it keep chugging along. A Macbook Pro can barely even hold its shape when you bump it into something, and may Allah, Jesus, and Buddha help you if you ever drop it, not that they'd be able to help anyway.

Ultimately it boils down to form over function. What matters to you more?

if Apple ain't so anal about not having a single heat vent on the bottom panel, a lot of these heat issues could be avoided. Likewise if Apple decided that the 15" MBP can be 2-3mm thicker, perhaps we can all have a DL DVD burner in them today! Oh, and nevermind the bit about how aluminium is such a good RF shield, an issue that they only resolved recently with an innovation of coating the RF antennas with rubber! Wow, brilliant! The rest of the "Pee Cee" industry just wisen up and do their materials research right from the go get!

So today, we have machines that run very hot. Machines that have no DL drives. Machines that only until the last 2 revisions (I consider the MBP a revision of the old PB design really) started having wireless reception that is closer to what they should be. I wouldn't bring the whine in now as they've apparently fixed it with a new logic board replacement. With these on the table, let me ask you this.

1) Would a laptop being 3mm thicker affect you in anyway?
2) Would a heat vent on the bottom panel ruin the look that much? Sure, Jonathan Ives might want a clean unbroken design, but hey, it is not like their QC is that great that they can even *gasp* make batteries that are flush with the rest of the laptop, or even have the lid close down flush with the wrist rest, why bother at all?

A design flaw is a design flaw. All these "ooohs" and "ahhhhh" that come out from Macheads with each Stevenote are really plain... for lack of a better word, pure fanboism. What's so great about the rubber hinge for instance? That whole issue would have been mitigated completely had they choosen a better design!

Don't get me wrong, I do kind of lean towards the MBP/PB design. I just don't like the way it is going, how the practical aspects of the device's design takes a backseat in favor of its aesthetics. If Apple can make a device that'd

1) looks good
2) can take a beating
3) works great.

Then kudos to them! In fact that'd be worthy of a pro tag. As it is, it scores somewhat well for 1), but outright fails 2), and for quite a large number of users barely passes 3). Sorry Apple, you aren't trying hard enough. In fact I'd rather you try less hard on 1) and get the fundamental 2) and 3) right first.

 

[andiwm2003]

.............................................
1) looks good
2) can take a beating
3) works great.

Then kudos to them! In fact that'd be worthy of a pro tag. As it is, it scores somewhat well for 1), but outright fails 2), and for quite a large number of users barely passes 3). Sorry Apple, you aren't trying hard enough. In fact I'd rather you try less hard on 1) and get the fundamental 2) and 3) right first.

i can't agree more. that's why i'm leaning towards the macbook.

1) it still looks great
2) it can take a beating and even if it gets scratched it's a much cheaper machine that's scratched. and who cares about scratched plastic
3) if you aren't too sensitve about the "moo" i haven't heard about a major problem like frequent logic board failures or so.

 

[KingYaba]

About the four MacBook Pros, that is just bad luck. Holy crap .

I see some attitudes that PCs are all non-working crap boxes. Though out of the millions and millions sold, only a small minority have issues. The same should be expected out of Apple. Just Apple is on a smaller scale. Secondly Apple is branding Intel chips that have been used in PCs for years? So isn't it natural that PC issues may start to plague Apple since they are both using the Same Processors?