Kinda doubt about Vision Pros' future.

[ZiBart]

In my evolving opinion of the AVP, ar/vr for real work is surely a step backwards. The ergonomics alone will be causing health issues for those that use it long term. Nevermind the fatigue/wear of constantly moving your arms/shoulders while having bad posture. IMO, This should have been launched as a wearable akin to an Apple Watch rather than going all in as a productivity device as well. Perhaps two stripped down versions would have been best. 1. A wearable, with similar function as an apple watch, with the form factor of normal sunglasses. And 2. a videophile-centric 5k display that acts as a display or apple tv device (wired or airplay), also stripped down to core display/atv hardware which would surely reduce the current footprint in half. Then add built in productivity grade computing over time if the market demands it and if hardware in micro form factor, is invented. Both would have been cheaper, opening up a larger user base.

 

[thmsnt]

No Apple device is really essential. No device from any manufacturer is essential unless it's a machine that keeps you alive or provides an invaluable function. People buy Apple products because they are well-built, reliable, and fun to use.

I agree with you that as of now, the AVP (and AR/VR) is still a very niche category. Personally, I don't have a use for the AVP given its incredible price point, but that could change in a few years when the cost to benefit ratio is much better.

 

[Avatar74]

I hope VR stays as an expensive industrial practice and crashes and burns as a social one promoted by tech bros who don't have enough self awareness to realise that Ready Player One and Snow Crash were dystopian warnings and not aspirational futurism.

My wife and I were talking about this exact thing, and I agree that the future I see for VR/AR/MR is far more dystopian than you think.

Part of the problem with RP1, besides Cline's pedestrian writing, is that if there is a social commentary somewhere in there, it's obfuscated by Cline's relentless fetishization of tech and nostalgia. Spielberg does his best to veer away from the toxicity at RP1's core, but he doesn't commit to the full Verhoeven.

And here we are, already subscribing (read: leasing) our leisure time back from media conglomerates...

 

[tomtad]

This should have been launched as a wearable akin to an Apple Watch rather than going all in as a productivity device as well.

Agree, and this is the fundamental flaw with their strategy. VR/AR works as a companion device, something that elevates certain experiences such as playing a game, viewing a panorama photo, watching a movie, working with a 3D model. But you then take it off again after you have used it. I feel Apple have backed themselves into a corner with price as as a result felt they needed it to do everything, as a result there's no focus.

I do think we'll see a regular "Vision" device launched in the next year or so which corrects it. They need a device which has been aggressively cost cut to get it into peoples hands, and it needs to be seen as something you use with your other devices, ala AirPods, rather than a platform in itself.

 

[Ctrlos]

My wife and I were talking about this exact thing, and I agree that the future I see for VR/AR/MR is far more dystopian than you think.

Part of the problem with RP1, besides Cline's pedestrian writing, is that if there is a social commentary somewhere in there, it's obfuscated by Cline's relentless fetishization of tech and nostalgia. Spielberg does his best to veer away from the toxicity at RP1's core, but he doesn't commit to the full Verhoeven.

And here we are, already subscribing (read: leasing) our leisure time back from media conglomerates...

Here's something the world seems to have missed with the Vision Pro that I think sets a dangerous precendent:

There is no way to manually download MP3s onto it.

Yes I can use iTunes Match or Apple Music. But without paying for a subscription or an obscure service I cannot just drag and drop music from a Mac onto it. The Watch is capable of this using an iPhone as a go-between.

To my knowledge its the first Apple device that I must be locked into a subscription of some sort to make full use of and cannot access my own stored files. Thats not a future I want to be part of.

 

[ovrlrd]

Here's something the world seems to have missed with the Vision Pro that I think sets a dangerous precendent:

There is no way to manually download MP3s onto it.

Yes I can use iTunes Match or Apple Music. But without paying for a subscription or an obscure service I cannot just drag and drop music from a Mac onto it. The Watch is capable of this using an iPhone as a go-between.

To my knowledge its the first Apple device that I must be locked into a subscription of some sort to make full use of and cannot access my own stored files. Thats not a future I want to be part of.

Airdrop

 

[Ctrlos]

Airdrop

That doesn't work because the Vision Pro is designed like an iPad and there is no way to get files from 'Files' into the music app. I want the Vision Pro to show up in the Finder like my iPhone so I can drag and drop gigabytes of files. It has the capability but Apple have turned it off and I for one do not want to live in a post-ownership future.

 

[ovrlrd]

That doesn't work because the Vision Pro is designed like an iPad and there is no way to get files from 'Files' into the music app. I want the Vision Pro to show up in the Finder like my iPhone so I can drag and drop gigabytes of files. It has the capability but Apple have turned it off and I for one do not want to live in a post-ownership future.

Oh, I see, you are complaining about not being able to get them into Apple Music. Yeah good luck with that fight, you can always use third party apps for that (if there aren’t AVP native apps yet there will be soon).

 

[Ctrlos]

Oh, I see, you are complaining about not being able to get them into Apple Music. Yeah good luck with that fight, you can always use third party apps for that (if there aren’t AVP native apps yet there will be soon).

It might be an oversight on Apple’s part but as the internals are basically an iPad Pro there is no reason it cannot just pop up in Finder. It can become a floating Mac but not download files from it?!?

 

[BGPL]

Mixed reality is the future. Anyone who has had a chance to spend a few days with AVP knows this. In the next ten years, Apple and its competitors will knock out most of the obstacles that we see in the AVP - like size, weight, battery life, and cost.

Even though I sent my AVP back, I was super impressed and completely blown away by what they accomplished with an alpha product in a technology sector that is still in its infancy. Companies like Apple and Tesla drive innovation with new products like AVP and the affordable EV.

The negative Nellys will eat their words, just like Blackberry ate them with their comments about the iPhone.

 

[tomtad]

Mixed reality is the future. Anyone who has had a chance to spend a few days with AVP knows this. In the next ten years, Apple and its competitors will knock out most of the obstacles that we see in the AVP - like size, weight, battery life, and cost.

Even though I sent my AVP back, I was super impressed and completely blown away by what they accomplished with an alpha product in a technology sector that is still in its infancy. Companies like Apple and Tesla drive innovation with new products like AVP and the affordable EV.

The negative Nellys will eat their words, just like Blackberry ate them with their comments about the iPhone.

I guess you bought a 3D TV as well

 

[Avatar74]

Here's something the world seems to have missed with the Vision Pro that I think sets a dangerous precendent:

There is no way to manually download MP3s onto it.

Yes I can use iTunes Match or Apple Music. But without paying for a subscription or an obscure service I cannot just drag and drop music from a Mac onto it. The Watch is capable of this using an iPhone as a go-between.

To my knowledge its the first Apple device that I must be locked into a subscription of some sort to make full use of and cannot access my own stored files. Thats not a future I want to be part of.

What a lot of people aren't grasping is the motivation toward subscription models is driven by a change in accounting rules for SaaS that makes expense and revenue easier to account for under a subscription model.

The downshot for companies is that they can't count all the revenue up front. You may say "Well, it's better if they don't," but that depends on a number of factors... $120 up front is worth considerably more than $10 a month for a year, due to Time Value of Money. It gets even more complicated when you consider the different psychological impacts of raising the price on future products of the same class versus raising a subscription price. I can make much more sense of paying 20% more for a different house than the one I have than paying 20% more for the same apartment. So it's not exactly a slam dunk.

The upshot for companies, however, is that subscription revenue stabilizes other external factors like seasonality... it no longer matters when I sign customers up or how many movies they watch or don't watch, because a fixed amount of recurring revenue will be recognized in every month of the contract. This is also a lot easier to forecast... so forecast accuracy and beating earnings estimates becomes more controllable (unless you're David Zaslav or Ted Sarandos... but that's a different problem).

The downshot for customers is that there's greater incentive, in the form of positive shareholder reaction, to eliminate products that generate non-ratable (non-recurring) charges. As long as executive compensation is heavily tied to stock options, subscription revenue is effectively the new serfdom.

 

[Rogifan]

I think Apple will be selling a ton of these for enterprise users. You gotta remember that this product is the Apple Vision Pro not the Apple Vision Air (or non-Pro). With it’s current set of capabilities and price point it is already an enterprise level of product.

If you study the specs, the closest headset that comes close to it is the Varjo XR-4 and that costs $4k. Also you could imagine any company that was interested in the HoloLens 2 will probably be interested in the idea of possibly buying the AVP instead because it is cheaper.

Of course there will still be enthusiasts and early adopters that can afford to buy the Apple Vision Pro, and there are lots of things that make it easier to use (ie, more consumer friendly). They will spend some money on marketing the device in a way that appears like anyone can use it, even though not everyone should buy it. That’s because some day Apple wants to make a cheaper one and they want people to want it, it’s a common Apple marketing tactic.

Either way, I am glad you were able to figure out that it was not the right product/price for you.

I think Apple will be selling a ton of these for enterprise users. You gotta remember that this product is the Apple Vision Pro not the Apple Vision Air (or non-Pro). With it’s current set of capabilities and price point it is already an enterprise level of product.

If you study the specs, the closest headset that comes close to it is the Varjo XR-4 and that costs $4k. Also you could imagine any company that was interested in the HoloLens 2 will probably be interested in the idea of possibly buying the AVP instead because it is cheaper.

Of course there will still be enthusiasts and early adopters that can afford to buy the Apple Vision Pro, and there are lots of things that make it easier to use (ie, more consumer friendly). They will spend some money on marketing the device in a way that appears like anyone can use it, even though not everyone should buy it. That’s because some day Apple wants to make a cheaper one and they want people to want it, it’s a common Apple marketing tactic.

Either way, I am glad you were able to figure out that it was not the right product/price for you.

Yet Microsoft has all but abandoned HoloLens.

 

[sunny5]

Mixed reality is the future. Anyone who has had a chance to spend a few days with AVP knows this. In the next ten years, Apple and its competitors will knock out most of the obstacles that we see in the AVP - like size, weight, battery life, and cost.

Even though I sent my AVP back, I was super impressed and completely blown away by what they accomplished with an alpha product in a technology sector that is still in its infancy. Companies like Apple and Tesla drive innovation with new products like AVP and the affordable EV.

The negative Nellys will eat their words, just like Blackberry ate them with their comments about the iPhone.

Size, weight, battery life, price are just the tip of the iceberg. It still didnt provide purposes to consumers and future tech does not really mean it's the future. 3D TV was a future tech and yet, it failed.

 

[sunny5]

I think Apple will be selling a ton of these for enterprise users. You gotta remember that this product is the Apple Vision Pro not the Apple Vision Air (or non-Pro). With it’s current set of capabilities and price point it is already an enterprise level of product.

If you study the specs, the closest headset that comes close to it is the Varjo XR-4 and that costs $4k. Also you could imagine any company that was interested in the HoloLens 2 will probably be interested in the idea of possibly buying the AVP instead because it is cheaper.

Of course there will still be enthusiasts and early adopters that can afford to buy the Apple Vision Pro, and there are lots of things that make it easier to use (ie, more consumer friendly). They will spend some money on marketing the device in a way that appears like anyone can use it, even though not everyone should buy it. That’s because some day Apple wants to make a cheaper one and they want people to want it, it’s a common Apple marketing tactic.

Either way, I am glad you were able to figure out that it was not the right product/price for you.

Vision Pro is meant for consumers, not enterprise and it never meant to be. It lack features.

 

[ovrlrd]

Vision Pro is meant for consumers, not enterprise and it never meant to be. It lack features.

It is definitely intended for both. Though I will agree there is one feature that is missing which is MDM support, but that is apparently coming in 1.1

Jamf announces immediate support for Apple Vision Pro, allowing customers to confidently and securely explore new ways of working

www.jamf.com

 

[darthbane2k]

It is definitely intended for both. Though I will agree there is one feature that is missing which is MDM support, but that is apparently coming in 1.1

Jamf announces immediate support for Apple Vision Pro, allowing customers to confidently and securely explore new ways of working

www.jamf.com

Nothing about it screams enterprise.

 

[ovrlrd]

Nothing about it screams enterprise.

Jigspace is an enterprise app that is already on it at launch. You can be certain there will be companies already using Jigspace who will be buying these.

This is huge for CAD applications and line training. I don’t know what “screams enterprise” is supposed to mean. There is nothing about the iPhone that “screams enterprise” yet it has thousands of enterprise applications.

It is early days still with the AVP but it definitely is also going to be used for enterprise.

Apple developer articles focusing on two companies already using it:

Spotlight on: Apple Vision Pro apps for enterprise - Discover - Apple Developer

Learn how JigSpace and PTC are approaching the new world of visionOS.

developer.apple.com

Here is another big enterprise application announced today:

Vision OS

Shapr3D immersive CAD powered by Siemens Parasolid lets you design and edit interactively in real-time in Vision Pro, making communication and finalization precise.

www.shapr3d.com

 

[heretiq]

Nothing about it screams enterprise.

Correct, the AVP does not scream enterprise; you have to do the homework to explore the spatial computing concept and platform that Apple has introduced to see it. If the Enterprise potential is not apparent, I suggest researching Spatial Computing to learn the definition, history and enterprise applications (perhaps starting with this article) then watch the WWDC 2023 Vision Pro keynote and Apple Engineer videos. With this primer, the Enterprise plumbing in the AVP gen 1, and enterprise potential should become apparent.

 

[Avatar74]

Correct, the AVP does not scream enterprise; you have to do the homework to explore the spatial computing concept and platform that Apple has introduced to see it. If the Enterprise potential is not apparent, I suggest researching Spatial Computing to learn the definition, history and enterprise applications (perhaps starting with this article) then watch the WWDC 2023 Vision Pro keynote and Apple Engineer videos. With this primer, the Enterprise plumbing in the AVP gen 1, and enterprise potential should become apparent.

I can't speak to all use cases, but I can easily speak to the Data Analytics case as I am a data analytics & architecture manager with 25 years experience.

Some of you may remember the movie Disclosure as a mid-90s Cocaine Noir that had a weird side plot that involved navigating databases in a VR environment. You can quickly see how this is only interesting for a movie but an absolutely massive headache for DevOps, data architects, dashboard developers and users.

At the very end of the day, most stakeholders just want to know three data points: Where they are, where they need to be, where they are projected to land. There may be some people in sales who like to make slides out of scatter plots, spider plots, other interesting visualizations but there is also such a thing as what Edward Tufte coined as "chartjunk"... and when you get to SVP, EVP and C-suite levels they just want the numbers.

When it comes to architecting this, VR is absolutely useless... Even though to some extent data lineage models are useful to look at, they're cumbersome enough to play with on a computer, and having to drill into objects is a giant pain compared to just scrolling through the code/query.

When it comes to building dashboards.... same thing. It might be useful for some very novice analysts who are pasting together very small data sets. Tableau's data blending is an example. But the more speed, complexity of KPI calcs, and combinations of disparate data sources sitting in various databases on various servers you need to pull together, the farther back in the tech stack you need to code.

AVP is a hindrance in this space. That is not to say it doesn't have its uses but I think its strongest use case is in the consumer realm of wants, not needs, but it's still 50 years away from having enough firepower and battery power in the smallest form factor possible to have mass adoption.

 

[HDFan]

My biggest worry with VR is it will catch on.

No need to worry about that. We live in the real world, where VR is an awful, objectionable experience that most people can't tolerate. Only in fiction is where VR is something where you put on a headset and are magically transported to an entirely different body in an entirely different world. Such a thing could become addictive and dominate people's lives, if it were possible, or even remotely realistic. Thankfully it's not. No need to worry.

There is reason to worry. Look at Marques Brownlees' video on AI generated video content. It has improved so much that the untrained eye can't tell the difference between real and generated with some images. Because VP improvements are dependent on hardware rather than software it won't happen as fast but it will happen. Most of the people who returned units said they were blown away by the VP, but didn't keep it because of fit, weight, etc. Once those problems are resolved ......

 

[Avatar74]

Most of the people who returned units said they were blown away by the VP, but didn't keep it because of fit, weight, etc. Once those problems are resolved ......

But those aren't side problems. Those are the problem.

People had very little enthusiasm about iPod until getting music for it became idiotically easy vis-a-vis the one-click purchasing patent that Apple quietly licensed from Amazon around 2000-2001. Until then it was a nuisance to move songs from, say, Limewire/Kazaa/Napster to iPod.

Virtual appearance is very much a novelty... it doesn't save a user real time or otherwise improve a user's real life in a tangible, measurable way. Novelties wear off. But real time savings and real convenience drives more widespread adoption and increases switching costs.

 

[Borjan]

But those aren't side problems. Those are the problem.

People had very little enthusiasm about iPod until getting music for it became idiotically easy vis-a-vis the one-click purchasing patent that Apple quietly licensed from Amazon around 2000-2001. Until then it was a nuisance to move songs from, say, Limewire/Kazaa/Napster to iPod.

Virtual appearance is very much a novelty... it doesn't save a user real time or otherwise improve a user's real life in a tangible, measurable way. Novelties wear off. But real time savings and real convenience drives more widespread adoption and increases switching costs.

But what if virtual appearance is actually saving the user from having to actually go and meet someone (say on the other side of the world) be it for social or professional reasons?

Value propositions aren't always obvious.

It reminds me of the 'what is the competitor to the snack bar in the grocery store' question?

At first glance its the other snack bars.
But then you think about the other treats.
Then what about the fruit, competiting with the user for a healthy lifestyle?
Then what about the other places that are trying to get the buyer into their stores/experiences instead of the grocery store?

I think it's sensible to really try and re-evaluate this future of Spatial Computing without the biases of yesterday.

 

[sunny5]

Apple Vision Pro is missing the one thing that made the iPhone a success

It helps to have a purpose

www.tomsguide.com

As the article mentions, AVP lack purposes. It doesn't really justify consumers to buy it.

 

[Avatar74]

But what if virtual appearance is actually saving the user from having to actually go and meet someone (say on the other side of the world) be it for social or professional reasons?

I work in tech and manage teams in US, UK, Europe and India. What does this "virtual presence" accomplish in reality that an email or video conference can't do for less money?

Then you have the cultural factor. We recently acquired a large European company. Almost no one, except the Berlin office, goes on camera when we are on video conference.

This is what I mean when I say it's a novelty... and with younger generations what I've noticed is that they prefer using text over FaceTime or voice/phone, as a buffer. They don't like the immediacy for the same reason I like email: I can buffer, collect, and edit my thoughts instead of being put on the spot.

So, again, I'm not seeing the value proposition until virtual presence can do actual things that email, phone, videoconference, or actual physical presence cannot do... and without a pair of heavy goggles strapped to my face which, actually, prevents me from multitasking which I and other managers do constantly during meetings.

Before you say "Yeah but virtual workspace"... Ehh... I write a lot of code and I type 97wpm. I say that having been a proponent of the iPhone and having written my senior thesis on internet distribution of music.

When I can wear a pair of any eyeglass frames I want fitted with Vision Pro enabled prescription lenses, light as a feather, with a battery that works longer hours than I do (I get up at 4am and am in bed still answering emails around 11:30pm), and can actually anticipate, help organize and manage some of my workload for the day, in my professional and personal life, then there'll be a killer app. But that day is probably 50 years down the road, and I won't be here by then.