LCS repair info for Powermac G5 dual 2.5

[INSURGENCYmusic]

i actually just got my dual 2.7 powermac fixed by apple last month for the LCS problem. they replaced the logic board, the lcs, the processors. if u are the original owner, and bought the computer from apple, i would seriously call them back and tell them that you experienced a health/safety issue. thats what i did, and basically gave me a case # and told me to take it to a mac certified repair (not apple store). and it was taken care of. this is a 2005 mac that i bought in 2005, that they fixed a month ago.

 

[photonorm]

Update on repair

Since people are continuing to view the thread I thought I would update y'all on how the repair is doing.

In a word...'running'.

My temps under load (75%-100%) run between 185-195ºF with a very short(less than .25 sec) peak over 200ºF.

However, when I need to restart my machine (maybe once or twice a month) I do need to let it cool down since the time the pump is off during the reboot allows the heat to spike enough to trip the overheat sensors.

After a cool down time the machine boots just fine.

I suspect that the cooling blocks didn't get as clean as they could have so the heat transfer from the processor to the coolant isn't as efficient as it could be. I clean in between the individual 'fans' of copper as best I could with an 'exacto' knife and a chemical cleaner. If I had an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner that is what I would have used to get the copper super clean of gunk.

The process of disassembling the LCS to try and clean the blocks again isn't worth the trouble of reassembling and recharging the system.

Now that these LCS machines are popping up online now is a great time to get one and repair it! My machine is rock solid and runs as fast if not faster than my Intel iMac.

If anyone needs assistance with their repair just send me a private email and I will do what I can. Please read the entire post as there are other helpful suggestions and links from other posters.

Norm

 

[Jim.W]

I think this has been the best info on fixing this problem. I just realized this morning that my LCS has been leaking as well.

The shut down issue occurred well over a year ago and I took it to the Apple store for a diagnosis. They said it was the video card since they couldn't get any display when in target disc mode. So I went along with that thinking that some day I'll get a cheap card to replace, but when I opened it up this morning I saw some corrosion at the base of the LCS –*I always knew that these were known for failure, but I thought "not mine after all these years".

I need to take a better look at the PCBs - hopefully no damage and it's just the LCS repair to deal with.

Thanks for all the input from everyone on here – it's all still relevant

 

[Jim.W]

Hi guys. If anyone is still reading this thread, I'd like to ask for some input. I've disassembled my machine and have cleaned the corrosion off. The boards and all look good as well as the inside of the PSU.

I stainless steel wire brushed the aluminum to get the corrosion off and now it's nice and shiny (for better or worse)

My question is: Does anyone know if I need to treat the aluminum for corrosion prevention? If so, with what? Or, is the wire brushing good enough?

Thanks!

 

[Jim.W]

Awesome (not).
Everything was great until I tried to clean the CPU boards with water and a toothbrush. I barely touched the board and several resistors just fell off the board – they sounded like teeth falling into the sink.

 

[vohdoun]

Awesome (not).
Everything was great until I tried to clean the CPU boards with water and a toothbrush. I barely touched the board and several resistors just fell off the board – they sounded like teeth falling into the sink.

That's too bad and I don't mean it in a patronizing way. Toothbrush and water just seems extreme to get dust off? in all my years cleaning computers, compressed air cans have always done the job and I mean when stripping everything down.

Though from your problems with the LCS, sounds like it's been a lot warmer than usual over time and probably ruined the solder. Just like what the Xbox 360's and Playstation 3's suffered.

 

[Jim.W]

Yes, that would be extreme for dust, but I was cleaning off the corrosion caused by the coolant. It's the white crystalline residue that won't blow off with a can of air.
Oh well, it was just time and the cost of those damn O-rings from Grainger.

 

[Nameci]

I just recently acquired a powermac quad. All the stuff from my dual core I have transferred it to the quad. The dual core will be restuffed again and be given to my brother.

Anyway, when I run iStat pro it is only showing CPU A Pump rpm on the fans section. There is no mention of CPU B Pump. Is this telling me that the LCS is a Delphi single?

 

[Whargoul]

Cycling the energy saver from high to low and back is sometimes needed to "wake up" the LCS management software.

 

[Nameci]

Another update.

AppleFan.kext.
Stock code has it set to start to spool up up at 135*f and max them out at 144*f with very small even speed steps between and a very long delay before they spool down. I believe this is a major contribution to noise complaints.

<key>fan-hysteresis-temp</key>
				<integer>14080</integer>
				<key>fan-polling-period</key>
				<integer>8</integer>
				<key>fan-slowdown-delay</key>
				<integer>48</integer>
				<key>fan-speed-table</key>
				<array>
					<integer>14592</integer>
					<integer>14922</integer>
					<integer>15059</integer>
					<integer>15164</integer>
					<integer>15252</integer>
					<integer>15331</integer>
					<integer>15401</integer>
					<integer>15466</integer>
					<integer>15526</integer>
					<integer>15583</integer>
					<integer>15637</integer>
					<integer>15688</integer>
					<integer>15736</integer>
					<integer>15783</integer>
					<integer>15828</integer>
					<integer>15872</integer>
				</array>
				<key>fan-speedup-delay</key>
				<integer>8</integer>

I modified the code to spool up gradually 129*f-163* then ramp up to max quickly between 165*f-167*f. Slowdown delay was cut by 2/3 from 48 to 16.

<key>fan-hysteresis-temp</key>
				<integer>13300</integer>
				<key>fan-polling-period</key>
				<integer>8</integer>
				<key>fan-slowdown-delay</key>
				<integer>16</integer>
				<key>fan-speed-table</key>
				<array>
					<integer>13800</integer>
					<integer>14200</integer>
					<integer>14600</integer>
					<integer>15000</integer>
					<integer>15500</integer>
					<integer>16000</integer>
					<integer>15500</integer>
					<integer>16768</integer>
					<integer>17200</integer>
					<integer>17800</integer>
					<integer>18176</integer>
					<integer>18700</integer>
					<integer>18950</integer>
					<integer>19100</integer>
					<integer>19150</integer>
					<integer>19200</integer>
				</array>
				<key>fan-speedup-delay</key>
				<integer>8</integer>

These changes, along with setting performance to "automatic" have made the fans behave far more civilized. They now spool up quietly to maintain 135*f at average loads and 165*f at 100%x4 load.

I have followed this plist mod and my temps reads much lower and the fans are quick to adjust its speed to the load.

 

[vohdoun]

I thought this was interesting...

Finished attaching the hoses. 1/4" ID hoses are vinyl with the larger 3/8" ID hoses being Tygon. I went ahead and added RTV water pump sealant to all tubing connections similar to what Apple had done with the epoxy. I know it wasn't necessary but I'd like to have that extra bit of assurance in the back of my head. I still need small clamps for the copper blocks but that's really about it. I'm waiting the designated 24 hours for the sealant to cure before I fill it back up with fluid.
I went to my local Lowes and I was unable to find a bleeder valve similar to what you had Heikki. The closest thing I was able to find were some 3/8" ID fuel shut-off switches in the lawn mower department of all areas. I had to saw off the two ports at the top of the radiator to attach these switches with more vinyl tubing.
Also, if it hasn't been noted before, the radiator is closed off into two separate systems which explains why I had to use two switches. I guess this makes sense since the upper processor would overheat much quicker once the coolant level dropped (which seems to be the main culprit of the overheating issue since I wasn't able to extract much more sediment with several subsequent flushes with boiling water).

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3332855?start=75&tstart=0


Heh.

As for the Apple "Service" People, they seem to be the same anywhere in the world. If you like to fix instead of buying new, in particular older parts, you're on your own.

 

[vohdoun]

Interesting.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3842869?start=0&tstart=0

 

[jezzy]

I'm currently rebuilding my dual 2.5 as well.. I picked up this unit for 40$ but needing the LCS repair. does the OP still have orings? I would love to buy some from you!

by the way for anyone else doing the job, forget about removing the tubing if it's not leaking. you can remove these orings from below without taking the tubing apart. if I would have known, I wouldn't have sliced my finger and I also broke a plastic inlet on the heat sink. waste of time!

 

[Litany]

My Quad needs repair. It boots fine, but CPU B overheats to 210*f and the computer shuts itself down after a few minutes. It has the single pump Delphi system.

----------
I put it on craigslist and sold it for $150.

Anyways, I took advantage of Apple's 14 day policy and got a 2.5Ghz Mini until the 2012 iMacs are released. Its significantly faster than the Quad, uses 140watts less at idle (300 watts less at full power) is drastically quieter (1 fan compared to 9) and even the low-end GPU is more powerful than the X1900.

The bad stuff.
Lion has a lot of little annoyances and removed features compared to Leopard.
The 500GB laptop drive is a huge hindrance to performance. This thing really needs an SSD.

Seriously, its time to dump the G5's unless you absolutely need PPC software. The Sandy and Ivy i-series CPUs are several times more powerful clock-for-clock and even overpower the 1st gen Mac

 

[photonorm]

Dual 2.5 O-rings for sale

I noticed that some posters are asking about o-rings. I still have plenty from my rebuild. You can email me at <username> (at) gmail (dot) com. Where it says username please use the username for me in this forum. I will reply to where you can send a few bucks to cover the o-rings and shipping.

They were purchased from MSCdirect.com. They specs can be found by searching for item#2049971.

Happy rebuilding

 

[photonorm]

Original rebuild-update

Hello fellow DIY'ers,

I have gotten some emails from people who are attempting to rebuilt the LCS machines and the collective information on this thread and others is growing as new problems are solved. Thanks to everyone who is sharing there experiences.

I wanted to update the thread with how my rebuilt machine that I wrote about in this thread is doing.

Up until a week ago all things were great. A new symptom appeared...the machine wouldn't go to sleep. It took me a while to realize that it was my new UPS. I have the UPS connected to my machine so the UPS software can inform me of the batter status and I can set preferences in the System Preferences on how I want the computer to respond when the UPS is running on battery power. When I disconnected the USB cable connecting the UPS to the computer it would stay asleep.

So, I don't believe the 'no sleep' is related to a heat issue. I was thinking that it wouldn't go to sleep because the temp would spike and possibly cause problems so the machine would start up immediately.

A few days ago I came into my office and the fans were on high and the monitors were black. It looked like the machine was asleep but the running fans and the power button on the monitor was not 'pulsing' like it would if it was asleep. No keyboard or mouse input made the monitors come on. The temp in my office was 82. The combination of a constantly running machine and a hot room caused a overheat trip. I turned on the window unit I installed to make my office tolerable with all of the computers and electronics and left the room and the computer on with the fans still running on high. I returned hours later and the room was 70 degrees and the machine was off. When I tried to reboot the screen stayed dark and the red light came on from inside the computer that indicates an overheat error.

The only way I have been able to restart the machine is to remove the outer cover and partially open the clear plastic cover enough cause the fans to run at full speed. With the fans running at full speed when I power on the computer it will boot completely. I then return the plastic cover and the fans operate normally.

I was re-reading this thread and noticed the posted images of the temps and see that my CPU B was the hotter of the two. Now it is CPU A.

The attached photo will show that the CPUs are running at approx 50% and the temps range for CPU A 190-205 and CPU B 180-192. The average difference between the 2 is usually around 10 degrees.

I have checked inside the machine, as I do periodically, and there are no signs of leaks and with the clear tubing installed I can see that there is coolant and it is flowing. I did notice a while ago that the color of the coolant when it was installed into the LCS was blue. Now it is a light brown but still clear. I suspect that any corrosion that was inside the radiator was dissolved and that is what changed the color. Unless the coolant is suppose to change color. Eitherway, there is an obvious change in the color.

It is obvious to me that I will have to give it some sort of attention starting with the simplest first.

I will make sure the processors are as tight to the heat blocks as possible. If that doesn't change anything I will look to cleaning out the 'fins' of the heat block and flushing out the radiator with a mixture of 50/50 vinegar and water to see if there are any deposits that have since been dislodged and might be restricting the flow.

Unless someone tells me something to the contrary, I think I might put in a small amount of automobile radiator fluid along with the same coolant I used when I replaced the fluid. Maybe the anti corrosive properties of the automobile coolant will be more effective since I am not working with a truly 'clean' LCS.

Does anyone know what happens to coolant in the bottle that wasn't sealed well? My coolant was blue and now it is almost clear with a faint blueness still visible. Is it still good?

Thanks for reading and helping me with my continued journey that is the "LCS Rebuild".

Norm

 

[jezzy]

thanks for the reply, sadly I had to buy a bag of 100 o-rings to support my project.

I'm now waiting for a bottle of liquid cooling coolant, and ram.. I received the wrong ones on flea bay =(

I also installed new tubing (what a painful experience, never again will I remove the tubing) and will install new 3/4-1" clamps that tighten with a screw driver onto each tube end.

Looking forward to seeing if this G5 works, if not.. it'll become a G5 case-mod project ! (parts already on order

thanks for the updates! keep them coming, this is a valuable thread to me!

 

[jezzy]

Well I finished this last night, success! Thanks to the OP for the helpful guide and links to parts.

My system is running (originally purchased for 40$) unknown if it was in working condition.

40$ for G5
30$ (shipped) for liquid coolant from tigerdirect
20$ish for 100 o-rings and replacement tubing
12$ for a replacement video card on ebay
ram = free (had a spare Pentium 4 that had ddr400!)
HD = free (standard sata HD)
DVD = free (standard IDE dvd)
Total for a running dual processor 2.5 = 102$cdn =)

Temps for processor A = 133f
Temps for processor B = 131f

Runs great ! Thanks again

 

[mark8]

O rings for sale

TO ALL who are rebuilding the LCS System, Photonorm still has o-rings for sale. I just purchased a few(cheap). Drop him an email. He is also very helpful with answers to questions
Mark

 

[photonorm]

2 year update

Hello everyone.....

My my....where has all the time gone?

It has been 2 years since my original post and I have some new things to report.

Here is the quick summary:

1. Machine was running stable for the entire 2 years up until about a week ago when I was getting very hot temps and the machine was shutting itself down.
2. I disassembled the LCS, cleaned the parts, replaced the hoses, and added another input into the LCS (making the total 2) for better air bleeding.
3. Put the LCS back into the machine and on start up I get chimes but no video. I do see that the overhead LED on the board just behind the LCS (visible by looking into the box from the front) is on.
4. I removed the LCS, removed the paste (which I think was on too thick), reapplied less thermal paste, and I still get the overheat LED after chimes.

There is lots of new photos and information on the rebuild v.2 but I won't be able to add that info to the thread until I can figure out why it won't boot.

Here are the items I have to consider and any thoughts are greatly appreciated. This is a 24/7 project for me as my business is pretty much at a standstill until this machine is repaired.

Thanks in advance---Norm


Processors were reinstalled in the same position
The pump is connected to power and is functioning
There are no leaks in the LCS (It was tested thoroughly prior to filling with coolant and the air bled out
The fans spin up
The deflector shield is in place as is the aluminum 'G5' LCS cover. The G5 cover was was off the entire 2 years after the first rebuild. The deflector shield was always in place.


The first time I booted after initial rebuild, 2 years ago, the machine booted on the first try.

My first thought is that it might be related to my application of thermal paste after rebuild v.2. The first time it appeared that there was too much as it 'squirted' beyond the face of the processor after removing the LCS . The second time I applied a 'haze' of paste per manufacturer's instructions first then applied half a grain of rice dot in the middle of the processor. The processor and LCS where the processor makes contact were cleaned with 91% Iso. alcohol.

If the processor(s) are damaged how would I know if I can't get the machine to boot? The screen never comes on and it is after the chimes is when the LED, that I have come to understand as the overheat indicator, comes on. Below is an excerpt from the "Apple Training Series-Mac OS X Support Essentials" second edition by Kevin M. White. Page 547 states:
Power-On Self-Test
The first thing your Mac’s firmware does at power on is the Power-On Self-Test (POST). The POST tests built-in hardware components such as processors, system memory, network interfaces, and peripheral interfaces. When your Mac passes the POST, you hear the startup chime and see a light gray background on all displays. After a successful POST, the firmware will go on to locate the booter file.
If your Mac fails the POST, the displays will remain blank or off, and you may get hard- ware error codes. Depending on the age and model of your Mac, these error codes may manifest as audible tones or a series of flashes from the external power-on light, or inter- nal diagnostic lights may illuminate. You may even see a combination of these things. Regardless of which error code you experience, they all indicate a hardware problem exists outside of Mac OS X’s control. You can visit Apple’s support website at http://www.apple. com/support/ to identify your specific Mac’s error code, or you can take your Mac to an Apple Authorized Service Provider.

So, if you have any suggestions please throw them into the collective thread and maybe, with your help, we can get my rebuild v. 2.0 back online.

Thanks!

 

[OrangeSVTguy]

I see that you said you Reinstalled the CPUs in the same orientation. It's possible the top CPU finally tools its last breath. Remove the upper CPU and swap the lower CPU to the upper slot. See if it boots then? That may just eliminate if its a bad CPU.

 

[photonorm]

Thanks for the suggestion. I will give it a try and let you know.

 

[photonorm]

just a bit more thermal paste

Before I try to swop the processors location on the LCS I thought I would evaluate the thermal paste and see if I was too stingy. I thought I might have been so I added a teeny-tiny bit more (less than 1/4 a grain of rice).

When I tried to start up after the addition of more paste I got no chimes. Before I added the paste I did get chimes but no video.

So now I have a machine with no chimes on start up, no video, and the overheat LED on the board still comes on.

I took off the defector shield and listened to the pump and it wasn't running anywhere as fast as it would when I had it connected to a straight 12v power supply. So I tried to start up with the deflector shield off and the pump getting power externally so it would run at 100% and not be throttled back by the computer hoping the quick circulation of coolant would allow the computer to boot. No such luck.

I am going to let the machine rest overnight and hope the Apple Fairies come in the middle of the night and sprinkle some magic dust on it and it will be healed. And also try to boot with the external supply running the pump after it being off overnight and see if anything changes.

I wonder if when a Mac user cusses at their machine an Apple Fairy gets its wings?

 

[photonorm]

No Fairies this morning

Well, the Apple Fairies didn't come and magically repair my mac. On power up I still got no chimes, no video, and the overheat light came on.

I don't know what changed after I removed the LCS and simply added a tiny bit more paste.

I am going to swop the location of the processor cards on the LCS and see what happens.

 

[mark8]

LCS repair info

The links below should help all those with G5 LCS PowerMacs.
For those DIYers, replacement pumps are $35 shipped from bmaverick. He has hundreds of brand new pumps available for dual and quad systems

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~holindho/g5-quad-v1-lcs-repair.html

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~holindho/g5-quad-v1-lcs-repair-pump.html

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/G5_CoolantLeak_Repair/G5_CoolantLeak_Repair_p 1.html

http://bmaverickddcpumps.wordpress.com/buy-ddc-pumps-here/