Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Looks like the end of the road for mac pro
- Thread starter pat500000
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Not unless you've been asleep the last 35 years since that commercials been made.
Nah I'm someone who consulted on workstation and other enterprise hardware purchases for over 5 years. I owned Mac Pros, couldn't praise them enough (aside from the price and non-top tier hardware after 2009). I know a great deal about what is suitable for people's needs and made a good living out of sharing that information. I've also owned and used all manner of workstation hardware including Quadro and FireGL/FirePro cards. I've sat, watched and analysed architects, engineers, 3D artists, illustrators, graphic designers, musicians, sound engineers all use workstations and try to get performance out of them. Now I certainly don't know everything and I've been out of the loop for a year or so, but all that experience has shown me that workstation graphics on a Mac have never been anything other than branding. FX 4500, FX 5600, FX 4800, the 4000, the K5000 and the D300/500/700s offer what to a Mac user compared to a consumer card? Everything workstation cards are supposed to accomplish on PC Apple already offered with consumer cards and no one went out of their way to do anything extra with Quadro or these FirePro versions other than AMD making them a bit better under windows (but not like real FirePro).
Optimised drivers? Well sure Apple and the GPU manufacturers wrote them, but they didn't go out of their way to put in special optimisations that were found in Windows i.e a retail 7870 performances like a D300 and a GT 7800 performed like an FX 4500. Support and a guarantee for the other hardware? Yep - again provided by Apple. Quick response from the GPU manufacturers for driver defects? Good luck on a Mac.
I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Quadro and FirePro cards to 3D modellers using Maya or those working professionally with, what is now, Siemens NX or CATIA. I'll happily chat about whether it is worth getting workstation cards for D3D based software like 3DS Max, or if AutoCAD and Solidworks can benefit, or why it isn't worth getting one for Adobe's stuff or ZBrush. I don't have issue with Apple using the branding on the D300/500/700, the comparisons to PCs with W7000s and such were ridiculous, but that wasn't Apple's fault.
For professional use I don't even care about the price, most companies I still work with waste more per employee on other tools/hardware/expenses/furniture/software/cloud services than the amortised cost of a Mac Pro over a PC, but I felt like linuxcooldude's positive comments towards the Mac Pro's price and configuration are in a bubble of Apple's own product range, not what was available elsewhere in late 2013. The fact that old Mac Pros are often still a better choice highlights this even more for me.
I like Macs and OS X, but the build quality is the best thing about them (and the OS I guess) to me. The specs and configurations are limiting and mildly disappointing because I have always been able to justify the highest end workstation hardware and Apple haven't offered it since before the 2009 Mac Pros. The price over PC hardware isn't a big deal, but only the 2006 and 2008 Mac Pros were great in that area due to deals Intel made to get Apple to switch.
Anyway, rant over for me, but I like talking workstation graphics if any one wants to discuss that more
Nah I'm someone who consulted on workstation and other enterprise hardware purchases for over 5 years. I owned Mac Pros, couldn't praise them enough (aside from the price and non-top tier hardware after 2009). I know a great deal about what is suitable for people's needs and made a good living out of sharing that information. I've also owned and used all manner of workstation hardware including Quadro and FireGL/FirePro cards. I've sat, watched and analysed architects, engineers, 3D artists, illustrators, graphic designers, musicians, sound engineers all use workstations and try to get performance out of them. Now I certainly don't know everything and I've been out of the loop for a year or so, but all that experience has shown me that workstation graphics on a Mac have never been anything other than branding. FX 4500, FX 5600, FX 4800, the 4000, the K5000 and the D300/500/700s offer what to a Mac user compared to a consumer card? Everything workstation cards are supposed to accomplish on PC Apple already offered with consumer cards and no one went out of their way to do anything extra with Quadro or these FirePro versions other than AMD making them a bit better under windows (but not like real FirePro).
Optimised drivers? Well sure Apple and the GPU manufacturers wrote them, but they didn't go out of their way to put in special optimisations that were found in Windows i.e a retail 7870 performances like a D300 and a GT 7800 performed like an FX 4500. Support and a guarantee for the other hardware? Yep - again provided by Apple. Quick response from the GPU manufacturers for driver defects? Good luck on a Mac.
I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Quadro and FirePro cards to 3D modellers using Maya or those working professionally with, what is now, Siemens NX or CATIA. I'll happily chat about whether it is worth getting workstation cards for D3D based software like 3DS Max, or if AutoCAD and Solidworks can benefit, or why it isn't worth getting one for Adobe's stuff or ZBrush. I don't have issue with Apple using the branding on the D300/500/700, the comparisons to PCs with W7000s and such were ridiculous, but that wasn't Apple's fault.
For professional use I don't even care about the price, most companies I still work with waste more per employee on other tools/hardware/expenses/furniture/software/cloud services than the amortised cost of a Mac Pro over a PC, but I felt like linuxcooldude's positive comments towards the Mac Pro's price and configuration are in a bubble of Apple's own product range, not what was available elsewhere in late 2013. The fact that old Mac Pros are often still a better choice highlights this even more for me.
I like Macs and OS X, but the build quality is the best thing about them (and the OS I guess) to me. The specs and configurations are limiting and mildly disappointing because I have always been able to justify the highest end workstation hardware and Apple haven't offered it since before the 2009 Mac Pros. The price over PC hardware isn't a big deal, but only the 2006 and 2008 Mac Pros were great in that area due to deals Intel made to get Apple to switch.
Anyway, rant over for me, but I like talking workstation graphics if any one wants to discuss that more
Good willing critics are always welcome to a constructive discussion.
Without weighing the results of taken decisions is impossible to have real progress.
So I fully understand your thoughts, they provide us another really useful perspective...
If you want to go the branding route, its not only on Macs that it applies...Linux and Windows are also included. Its not only a Mac thing. Workstation graphic cards can be install on those as well.
While i could agree the workstation graphics may be based on the consumer versions, its the higher level of support, drivers and changes in the hardware itself that separate these from consumer cards. Obviously the D300/D500/D700 are still different where some of this may not apply. But even the GPU's are not swappable between Workstation & consumer versions so there are differences in the hardware.
Call it a bubble or whatever you wish. But many people agree with me on pricing/configuration were VERY competitive in 2013 compared to other workstations.
Old Mac Pro's? Well, yes. But only on a used market as they don't make cheese grader Macs anymore. I'm a little reluctant now to by the old ones as now my 2009 is starting to show problems now. So its a crap shoot...how long will an old used Mac Pro last after I buy all that is necessary to out perform a new 2013 Mac Pro? Can you still get Apple care for them? I've used the Nvidia card route where the drivers constantly break with each new OS update...not for me. I need reliability, not flashed PC cards...extra rewired power supplies...ect.
This is all about how it's framed, and someone is only in the "bubble" (both pro-nMP or anti-nMP) if they can't see there are different ways of framing this debate.
If you started with a Mac Pro configuration and then configured a PC workstation to have similar components to the Mac Pro, then pricing was competitive with the likes of Dell, HP, etc.
The reason why a lot of folks were (and still are) so frustrated with the pricing and think it represents a poor value is that if you start with the configuration you want, and that doesn't happen to align with the available configurations on the Mac Pro, then it can feel like a poor value. And it's further frustrating because the MP is the only choice in Apple's lineup if you want a stand alone desktop computer with more than an iGPU and a CPU/GPU that can run full throttle 24x7.
Let's say I have a choice between getting a PC or Mac workstation, and I determine the best hardware specs for my usage would be:
Xeon E3-1271 v3 (quad 3.5-4GHz); single Quadro K2200 GPU; 16GB RAM; 500GB SSD
Dell Precision T1700 can be configured that for: $2,250
So, if I start with what I want, what would be the closest configured equivalent Mac?
nMP = Xeon E5-1620 2 (quad 3.7-3.9GHz); dual D300 GPU; 16GB RAM; 500GB SSD = nMP - $3,400
Not very competitive when framed from that perspective.
Again, Apples limited options should be of no surprise to most people by now. A common complaint on Mac Pros are limited graphics cards available for example. Most likely those people who want maximum configurability, or some such, are already on or moving to a PC platform.
But in many configurations, it cannot be denied, Apple is very competitive even based on its more limited options.
If you want to call a difference of option a brick wall, then so be it. Yes, I realize Apple does not have every option available like on the PC platform. If they did, they would not be Apple. They sell hardware/software integration solutions. As such, its going to be on a limited set of hardware.
But that's just it - I don't see where the difference of opinion is. I don't disagree with what you wrote - it unfortunately just doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote. That you think it does explains why it's like talking to a brick wall... or someone stuck in the "bubble".
I'm not disagreeing with you either. I said within Apple's limited options is very competitive compared to other workstations with similar hardware. If you go outside of what available on the New Mac Pro, then no, its not competitive as its hard to compare it to something that Apple does not offer.
I know it's a little like my parents generation saying they were at Woodstock, but I saw the 1984 ad live during the 1984 SuperBowl. I was already on my way to becoming a bit of an Apple geek, and I vividly remember just being floored by the ad, and talking about it with my friends the next day. I think it's kind of easy to forget the context of advertising around then - there was still very much a "Brady Bunch" aspect to advertising - lots of peppy jingles with overly-enthusiastic people. You just didn't see ads like the "1984" ad on TV at that time. Anyhoo...My avatar says it all.
I saw it too, and remember it well. I also was a bit of an Apple fanatic (Apple IIe and 128GB Macintosh) and thought it was a stunning commercial.
Unfortunately, my perception of Apple has changed lately, and can easily see how they've become what their 1984 ad was so against. Put an image of Tim Cook up on the screen, and I wouldn't even have to imagine it anymore.
I think this conversation would be very different if Apple supported Crossfire under OS X. That's the missing piece I think.
And if my Aunt was a man she'd be my Uncle.
Never going to happen. AMD can barely keep it working in Windows, while they are in Fire-Sale mode no way they are going to work on this.
So until the 7,1 comes out we are stuck with underclocked mid-level GPUs. In 2 more months you can sing Happy Birthday to them, will be 4 years old. While trying to get Fiji drivers optimized I have to believe they won't be too excited to work on drivers for cards from 2 generations ago. Maybe when 7,1 has Nano there will be a surprise or two.
With Metal I have no idea where Apples' priorities are now, but there are hints at the ABI level there is some interest in this. They've allowed multi GPU compute since 2008, and on the graphics side they've laid a lot of foundation.
Metal has some abstractions that could help, but I don't know if that's intentional or not.
They also wouldn't put in a Crossfire bridge into the nMP unless it served Apple somehow.
Its not Apple you need to worry about, its Microsoft.
http://www.ibtimes.com/windows-10-d...ate-silently-steals-gigabytes-storage-2093685
Apple makes no qualms about its ecosystem, Microsoft pretends your in control.
I fear neither of us would look as good as the girl (Anya Major) did in the 1984 commercial.
This.
OMFG teh Mac Pro is d00m3d! Act 19, Scene 7, Take 254, AkShuN! 197-page thread filled with much ranting and no info.
Dudes... how's this different from every other MP update cycle? It always takes Apple forever to upgrade it, I doubt they expect to make much money on it (if any), I also really doubt they're gonna kill it after going through the effort of releasing a redesign and getting production rolling in the US.
It's just at the very bottom of their ToDo list and they probably make more money selling iPod socks, than nMPs.
Anyhoo, whenever Intel drops their next-gen Xeons (which after the typical delays, clusterf--ks and assorted problems will be around, oh say 2017), I will proudly be one of the 12 people left on Earth still buying the new Mac Pro when it's released in Dec 2017!
Hooray!
Sorry, but as I watch the commercial (you can find it on Youtube, of course), the first thing that comes to my mind is the mindless lemmings marching and staring at the screen are Apple's customers lining up for "the next big thing" and sitting there watching Tim Cook blab on how this new gadget will revolutionize how we do things. Their "ecosystem" is definitely "controlled" and they dictate what you buy and what you can or cannot do with it. You most certainly can no longer "change" it. "You get ONE PORT. Make of it what you will."
That's not the Apple company of old.
lol...I really think you have been asleep for the last 35 years. If you look around advertising is everywhere for every product. It seems your so stuck on Apple, but missed the boat the way all companies advertise their products.
"The next big thing" is Samsung's mantra you failed to notice...oops. What you can and cannot do with it is dictated by every type of software by its licenses & terms of service. Its nice that most people think they own all their software, but actually are licensed to USE it. As such, you cannot do with it anything you want. Not just Apple, but most software.