Louis Rossman on soldered SSD

[ric22]

It goes beyond “tinkering” though… There’s another huge downside that I’m surprised more people aren’t calling out here: By soldering RAM and SSD to the board, Apple empowers themselves to price these components as high as they possibly can — and boy, do they ever.

Their strategy is obvious when you consider they still sell $1600 laptops with a “whopping” 512gb SSD and 8gb of RAM. Customers that buy such a machine are most likely ignorant about how pathetic these specs are for that price in 2023… And they’re more easily upsold to a 2TB SSD for “only” $600 more.

Comparing prices for the latest and greatest M.2 SSDs to what Apple charges for similar storage upgrades (when configuring a new machine) reveals that they’re likely charging at least ~300% more than what you’d pay if you could buy your own SSD and pop it into a socket.

Soldering the SSD to the logic board doesn’t make it perform better. It makes it more efficient for Apple to manufacture, and easier for them to tie their hands as they price-gouge their customers on basic components. I believe the line goes something like: “Remember, you can’t upgrade later, so make sure you get the most storage you can afford.” And the same tactic applies to RAM sales as well.

Entirely agree. It sickens me when the Apple sycophants here defend the soldered SSDs, claiming that a machine like the MacBook Pro isn't thick enough to socket the SSD or RAM. Both should be socketed- the reason they aren't in Apple laptops is a desire to make more money from consumers. The devices would be more repairable, upgradable, and would turn into e-waste much later if they were socketed.

 

[pete1]

Entirely agree. It sickens me when the Apple sycophants here defend the soldered SSDs, claiming that a machine like the MacBook Pro isn't thick enough to socket the SSD or RAM. Both should be socketed- the reason they aren't in Apple laptops is a desire to make more money from consumers. The devices would be more repairable, upgradable, and would turn into e-waste much later if they were socketed.

Not defending soldered parts, I would absolutely love upgradeable parts. But isn’t the ‘closed system’ part of Apple’s DNA and what Jobs always envisioned?

 

[ric22]

Not defending soldered parts, I would absolutely love upgradeable parts. But isn’t the ‘closed system’ part of Apple’s DNA and what Jobs always envisioned?

I think they envisioned a closed software system, not machines that were designed to be impossible to repair.

 

[RedWeasel]

But isn’t the ‘closed system’ part of Apple’s DNA and what Jobs always envisioned?

It wasn’t part of the Apple II. But maybe of the original Mac already.

 

[exlxaxd]

Not defending soldered parts, I would absolutely love upgradeable parts. But isn’t the ‘closed system’ part of Apple’s DNA and what Jobs always envisioned?

I could (sort of) understand the “closed ecosystem” defense if their prices for RAM and SSD upgrades were at least in a similar ballpark as current market rates… But it’s not even close — so their motives certainly go far beyond maintaining a high-quality user experience. Charging $600 for 2TB is utter absurdity in this day and age. When you look at these things independently, it’s crystal clear that Apple is not even pretending to price this stuff competitively… But they don’t have to — because they’ve effectively negated ALL competition by prohibiting users from upgrading these basic components. If you prefer a Mac experience, you’re getting gouged DEEP on RAM and storage. Period.

Apple didn’t used to be this way… But they’re making an absolute KILLING with these practices. Until more people decide that saving $$$ is actually worth leaving MacOS for, Apple is gonna continue with these insane markups.

I really dislike Windows, but not as much as I dislike being played like a fool. However, I think the reason many people simply ignore the gouging is because they find value in the overall Apple ecosystem — and unfortunately, choosing a more upgradable machine with competitively priced components means (mostly) saying buh-bye to the Apple user experience. I long for a world where more people are comfortable with both Mac and PC.

 

[ArkSingularity]

I really dislike Windows, but not as much as I dislike being played like a fool. However, I think the reason many people simply ignore the gouging is because they find value in the overall Apple ecosystem — and unfortunately, choosing a more upgradable machine with competitively priced components means (mostly) saying buh-bye to the Apple user experience. I long for a world where more people are comfortable with both Mac and PC.

Windows has its own problems unfortunately. Microsoft's total disregard for your preferences for certain things as simple as the default browser or basic tracking, constant changing of system settings to try to force updates at inopportune times, throwing ads in the start menu/file browser, constant undoing of user telemetry settings (making it hard to disable tracking), and nerfing of hardware support for anything pre 8th gen Intel in 2021 (far worse than anything Apple has done with regards to software support) are all examples of things that just aren't my cup of tea on the Microsoft ecosystem.

Different people value different things I suppose. Personally, I'd rather pay more for a computer that works (and that at least TRIES to protect privacy) than pay less for one that normalizes what I consider to be borderline adware in the OS. It's just a matter of different trade offs, but I personally still much prefer the Mac ecosystem over the state of Windows as it is now (even if I vocally disagree with some of the things that Apple does).

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

It goes beyond “tinkering” though… There’s another huge downside that I’m surprised more people aren’t calling out here: By soldering RAM and SSD to the board, Apple empowers themselves to price these components as high as they possibly can — and boy, do they ever.

Their strategy is obvious when you consider they still sell $1600 laptops with a “whopping” 512gb SSD and 8gb of RAM. Customers that buy such a machine are most likely ignorant about how pathetic these specs are for that price in 2023… And they’re more easily upsold to a 2TB SSD for “only” $600 more.

Comparing prices for the latest and greatest M.2 SSDs to what Apple charges for similar storage upgrades (when configuring a new machine) reveals that they’re likely charging at least ~300% more than what you’d pay if you could buy your own SSD and pop it into a socket.

Soldering the SSD to the logic board doesn’t make it perform better. It makes it more efficient for Apple to manufacture, and easier for them to tie their hands as they price-gouge their customers on basic components. I believe the line goes something like: “Remember, you can’t upgrade later, so make sure you get the most storage you can afford.” And the same tactic applies to RAM sales as well.

RAM isn't soldered, it's integrated on package and there are clear performance benefits.

The SSD being soldered is more of a packaging and thermal choice, which they use where it makes sense (Macbooks, Mac Mini, iMac). Where it doesn't matter (Mac Studio, Mac Pro), they use an M.2 socket like anyone else. Being soldered or not has nothing to do with price-gouging or locking down machine specs... even the socketed SSD's are not upgradeable by the consumer ever since the T2 chip was introduced. Whether or not that is primarily motivated by money can be debated, but there are also advantages to that system as well.

 

[ric22]

RAM isn't soldered, it's integrated on package and there are clear performance benefits.

The SSD being soldered is more of a packaging and thermal choice, which they use where it makes sense (Macbooks, Mac Mini, iMac). Where it doesn't matter (Mac Studio, Mac Pro), they use an M.2 socket like anyone else. Being soldered or not has nothing to do with price-gouging or locking down machine specs... even the socketed SSD's are not upgradeable by the consumer ever since the T2 chip was introduced. Whether or not that is primarily motivated by money can be debated, but there are also advantages to that system as well.

Bandwidth was the supposed big reason for integrating the RAM... but Apple themselves have backtracked on that being significant this year.

 

[XboxEvolved]

Why do Americans pronounce Soldered as "sar-dud" rather than "Soul-derr-d"? They literally miss out the entire middle part of the word.

lol what? No one say ”sar-dud” maybe “saw-derred”.

 

[XboxEvolved]

Every day, according to my frustrated genius bar guy, when one sent my logic board into the trash just out of Applecare. SSDs have a finite lifespan of about a thousand writes. The filesystem mitigates the effects of wear by various strategies but it still isnt a lot no matter how you spread it around, and the way Apple does SSDs, when one block goes, the whole SSD (& board) is shot. Soldering the ssds to the board serves only two purposes: 1, its cheaper to produce, and 2, it limits the lifespan of the entire machine to its fastest wearing component. When pressed Apple gave the excuse that it was required for the highest speed performance, though that was slower than plenty of non-soldiered drives outside the PR bubble. Rossman isnt incorrect, he sounds curmudgeonly because people pay him good money to repair Apple’s mistakes all day long, so when he sees thousands of them having the same few problems and digs into the root causes to find a fix, there are a lot more data points behind his opinion & frustrations than the “mine never failed so theres obv no problem” anecdotes in this thread.

You guys are discussing this like it's some foggy hypothetical. The complaining about this took place about 6 years ago when Apple got really aggressive about user-hostile design and cost engineering every nickel possible out of their production. Didn‘t matter. Apple doesnt care and neither do the kids. Every year fifty million more buy whatever is being sold when they go off to college, and they go right out and buy a new one when it dies, and that's just the way everyone likes it.

I don’t know what SSD you are using that it only has a thousand writes. If you mean full rewrites maybe? SSDs usually are only guaranteed to last for 5 years but obviously they can lost far longer. I’ve seen computers from 2013 with SSDs that run just fine still and that’s when they weren’t as good.

 

[ArkSingularity]

I don’t know what SSD you are using that it only has a thousand writes. If you mean full rewrites maybe? SSDs usually are only guaranteed to last for 5 years but obviously they can lost far longer. I’ve seen computers from 2013 with SSDs that run just fine still and that’s when they weren’t as good.

Oddly enough, some SSDs from back then were actually more reliable in some cases. It depends on what kind of flash we are comparing, but SLC and MLC flash (1 bit/cell and 2 bit/cell) flash was much more common back then. Those kinds of flash can handle many more writes than today's commonplace TLC flash drives can (3 bits/cell).

Wear leveling has gotten more advanced, which helps to balance things out. We have larger drives today, which increases the amount of data that can be written over the drive's lifespan, so the longevity of many of today's drives is probably fairly similar. SLC caches are also used on most drives, which gives it a percentage of the drive's capacity as SLC storage that can be written to first (boosts speeds greatly, as SLC is much faster to write to than MLC/TLC is).

 

[JustinePaula]

The problem is not one of dying, but space..Apple cram a lot of garbage apps which consumes a fair bit of storage, then you are left with a really tiny amount of useful SSD space.. What Apple should have done, is create parking space on the motherboard for extra SSD to be installed post purchase... If you want the extra parking spaces to be filled, you could buy from the istore the SSD, paying the "Apple" tax for the SSD.. It should be viable to have included 2 to 4 slots, for extra onboard RAM install and extra SSD..

This way you have a viable device, why Apple did not do this? It would generate extra income, you add RAM/SSD storage, then after a couple years, when you upgrade the SSD could be installed into an USB-C powered "NAS" or installed into the new laptop/desktop.. We all find we run out of space, and what to do?? It is frustrating..

 

[ArkSingularity]

The problem is not one of dying, but space..Apple cram a lot of garbage apps which consumes a fair bit of storage, then you are left with a really tiny amount of useful SSD space.. What Apple should have done, is create parking space on the motherboard for extra SSD to be installed post purchase... If you want the extra parking spaces to be filled, you could buy from the istore the SSD, paying the "Apple" tax for the SSD.. It should be viable to have included 2 to 4 slots, for extra onboard RAM install and extra SSD..

This way you have a viable device, why Apple did not do this? It would generate extra income, you add RAM/SSD storage, then after a couple years, when you upgrade the SSD could be installed into an USB-C powered "NAS" or installed into the new laptop/desktop.. We all find we run out of space, and what to do?? It is frustrating..

I would have liked to have seen this. If they couldn't make space for it on the Air, it would have been great to see on the Pro.

 

[tornado99]

lol what? No one say ”sar-dud” maybe “saw-derred”.

In English the first part of soldered is pronounced the same as "soul" in "soul music". Which is why the American way of saying it seems so odd to a native English speaker.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

I don’t know what SSD you are using that it only has a thousand writes. If you mean full rewrites maybe? SSDs usually are only guaranteed to last for 5 years but obviously they can lost far longer. I’ve seen computers from 2013 with SSDs that run just fine still and that’s when they weren’t as good.

I have an OCZ 128GB drive from 2010 that still works fine. Granted, the machine it's in doesn't get heavy use any longer, but it's still truckin'.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

In English the first part of soldered is pronounced the same as "soul" in "soul music". Which is why the American way of saying it seems so odd to a native English speaker.

Hate to break it to you, but the majority of American's are native English speakers. We even pronounce the "T" sound, rather than a lazy glottal stop

 

[JustinePaula]

Funny, why would the US choose to use a language from a country it hates.. Had a big party about it, used a lot of tea in a town called Boston.. then had a war, won the war, and bizarrely still even though hating on the English is one of only 2 countries to not go metric.. even though the US system is based on metric..

 

[ArkSingularity]

Funny, why would the US choose to use a language from a country it hates.. Had a big party about it, used a lot of tea in a town called Boston.. then had a war, won the war, and bizarrely still even though hating on the English is one of only 2 countries to not go metric.. even though the US system is based on metric..

Where did you get the idea that we hate Britain? Lol.

 

[JustinePaula]

Where did you get the idea that we hate Britain? Lol.

A lot of tea wasted in Boston, then a war, use of incorrect words, driving on the wrong side of the road.. but if you really wanted out, why did you stick with inches? I would have thought, middle finger to the king at the time, gone with metric.. but no...inches/miles/yards..Just so confusing... Even your cousins north n south went metric.. but no no you stay with broken.. why???

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

A lot of tea wasted in Boston, then a war, use of incorrect words, driving on the wrong side of the road.. but if you really wanted out, why did you stick with inches? I would have thought, middle finger to the king at the time, gone with metric.. but no...inches/miles/yards..Just so confusing... Even your cousins north n south went metric.. but no no you stay with broken.. why???

We still love you guys, even if you're... a bit much sometimes. Do the maths, this ain't the troubles, have a cuppa. Cheers mate.

 

[MapleBeercules]

If some component failure occurred on the logic board, how would you get your data? Apple would just replace your logic board.

You shouldn't have any non replaceable data on your devices, if you use icloud 99% of your data should be saved online, Or that's the theory anyways. Anyone else having chromebook commercial flash backs

 

[Duncan-UK]

Funny, why would the US choose to use a language from a country it hates.. Had a big party about it, used a lot of tea in a town called Boston.. then had a war, won the war, and bizarrely still even though hating on the English is one of only 2 countries to not go metric.. even though the US system is based on metric..

The revolution occurred to enable the colonists to defend their rights as free-born Englishmen!

 

[jlc1978]

If SSD drives were failing daily across the world I would like to think there would be a little more exposure especially on forums like this but it’s seemingly few and far between unless the age of the device is older. Honestly it’s impossible to quantify unless you have the Apple metrics.

Exactly. I suspect most machines are tired long before the TBW limit is exceeded and drive failers occur (whiich may not happen until the design TBW is way exceeded). Of those who use tehir machines a very long time I suspect their workload is such that most never even then hit the TBW. I'd be surprised if most drive failures are eithe rinfant mortality or from some other cause.

Yes, but that doesn't remove the fact that there may be data on the drive that you need access which may not be backed up. I get cloud based backups, but I'm talking about average consumers. Do you really think a twenty-something year old working all night on his thesis, and the logic board craps out will have a backup?

No, but they should and may have to learn the hard way. Independent of what Apple or any other manufacturer does, failing to backup is on the user, especially when, in Apple's case, they make it easy and inexpensive to use Time Machine.

I suggest to friends they backup as often as they are willing to have to recreate their work - some do hourly, other's dauly, and some well, simply do not value their data enough to fix problems.

Why do Americans pronounce Soldered as "sar-dud" rather than "Soul-derr-d"? They literally miss out the entire middle part of the word.

For teh same reason Prussian German sounds like a throat infection - regional accents.

You back up every night, outside of at work? Really?

If you do, you're 1 in 1,000.

I do, to mutiple storage areas - Time Machine, External SSD and One Drive which I encrypt.

 

[viridium]

Better question is, when is the last time someones SSD died? Outside of anomalies most will last longer than the life of the machine especially in Apple’s case when it can’t be moved from computer to computer.

I don’t mind Louis but he obviously has an agenda and as someone who grew up building pc’s I just don’t care anymore about swapping parts but I do expect them to last. If I felt strongly about it I simply wouldn’t buy it.

What's his agenda? If Apple fixes this issue, Louis makes less money.

 

[viridium]

Exactly. I suspect most machines are tired long before the TBW limit is exceeded and drive failers occur (whiich may not happen until the design TBW is way exceeded). Of those who use tehir machines a very long time I suspect their workload is such that most never even then hit the TBW. I'd be surprised if most drive failures are eithe rinfant mortality or from some other cause.



No, but they should and may have to learn the hard way. Independent of what Apple or any other manufacturer does, failing to backup is on the user, especially when, in Apple's case, they make it easy and inexpensive to use Time Machine.

I suggest to friends they backup as often as they are willing to have to recreate their work - some do hourly, other's dauly, and some well, simply do not value their data enough to fix problems.



For teh same reason Prussian German sounds like a throat infection - regional accents.



I do, to mutiple storage areas - Time Machine, External SSD and One Drive which I encrypt.

Your claim that these failures are few and far between seems to be contradicted by Louis.