Louis Rossman on soldered SSD

[pete1]

Better question is, when is the last time someones SSD died? Outside of anomalies most will last longer than the life of the machine especially in Apple’s case when it can’t be moved from computer to computer.

This is purely anecdotal but I just recently had the Blade SSD fail in a 2015 iMac. I had planned to just leave it in and boot off a USB/Thunderbolt drive going forward, but the machine was effectively bricked until the failed SSD was physically removed. Fortunately I was able to install an NVMe drive. With the latest models the machine would have to be thrown out.

 

[Pedro147]

Your claim that these failures are few and far between seems to be contradicted by Louis.

Apple fan boys just love to contradict what Louis says, thoughts that are backed up by vast industry experience, not just blind allegiance to a brand. A brand with low morals.

 

[turbineseaplane]

This is purely anecdotal but I just recently had the Blade SSD fail in a 2015 iMac. I had planned to just leave it in and boot off a USB/Thunderbolt drive going forward, but the machine was effectively bricked until the failed SSD was physically removed. Fortunately I was able to install an NVMe drive. With the latest models the machine would have to be thrown out.

Yep
"Eco-Conscious Apple" is pumping out hardware that is all destined to be e-waste, way before it should be

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I don’t know if you have noticed this, but other manufacturers are starting to do this too. Look at all the copilot plus PCs. It’s like taking the worst trait and cementing it across the industry.

Couple that with the incoming “chipsets” from Intel, and we are completely screwed here in the long term.

 

[icanhazmac]

This is purely anecdotal but I just recently had the Blade SSD fail in a 2015 iMac.

Yep
"Eco-Conscious Apple" is just pumping out hardware that is all destined to be e-waste, way before it should be

A bit hyperbolic no?

Since when do we expect AIOs to be useful for more than 9 years? I think @pete1 got a good lifespan from that 2015.

That being said, I am in favor of a module based approach, there is plenty of room for access. I would be even happier if there was a way to use an "outdated" iMac as a standalone monitor, basically a way to bypass the computer parts and just make use of the monitor.

 

[turbineseaplane]

A bit hyperbolic no?

Not in my view

I agree with you about a module based approach

Honestly, at this point in time with what's possible with tech and connectors, it is just wrong for Apple to not be using slotted NVMe at the least, and possibly also slotted RAM --- NVMe at least for sure though

 

[icanhazmac]

Not in my view

I agree with you about a module based approach

Honestly, at this point in time with what's possible with tech and connectors, it is just wrong for Apple to not be using slotted NVMe at the least, and possibly also slotted RAM --- NVMe at least for sure though

Agreed, the lack of slotted for both SSD/NVMe and RAM on "desktop" models is inexcusable. On laptops, one could argue you couldn't have the Air models with access panels or modules. One caveat would be the M series SoC design with everything on the same board, I am not an expert on this but I'm not sure how you make replaceable SSD/RAM integrate at the same performance levels.

My "hyperbolic" challenge to your post was that Apple "is just pumping out hardware that is all destined to be e-waste, way before it should be". 9 years, especially for the AIO form factor, is a pretty darn good life and I think most 2015 models cannot hold their own any longer.

I simply cannot consider an AIO dying at 9 years to be "way before it should". Even if you could easily replace the SSD, would it be functional, as a fully functioning computer, for much longer? As a monitor it could have a much longer life.

Now, if we could have the M series SoC in a replaceable module... now you are speaking my language! I normally hate AIOs because the monitor will outlive the computer but imagine if you could buy a new iMac today and replace the entire SoC via a module in 4 years... /chefskiss. Likewise if your monitor took a crap you could just take your SoC and insert it into another monitor shell.

 

[avro707]

You might be right, but it doesn't change the fact that Apple has made it impossible to replace the SSD. Or RAM. Or anything on the SoC.

Some of us with Intel Macs can change the SSD, but the kits to change the SSD are fairly rare to find and very expensive. And then you have to mess with the process to pair them up with the machine.

Using normal NVMEs is much easier and they are very very fast. So for storage I use those on a Sonnet card.

Only my MacBook Air M2 has the full locked down RAM and storage. I’m not buying any other new Apple machines.

 

[laptech]

Soldered on SSD's is extremely profitable for laptop manufacturers who use such a method because if the SSD fails, it's more profitable to sell the customer a $200-$500 replacement motherboard than a $50 SSD. Even if users have Apple care, having to pay for a new motherboard via Apple care is still more expensive than buying a standalone replacement SSD.

I've been repairing Apple laptops for over 9 years now and contrary to what people believe, the on board SSD does go wrong and it is heartbreaking to tell a customer that they must pay for a replacement motherboard at high expense rather than the much cheaper option which would have been a replacement SSD but Apple does not want that, they want money, they want profit so better to have customers pay for expensive replacement motherboards rather than a standalone SSD.

As a repair technician in my opinion it is criminal what these computer manufacturers are doing with soldered on SSD's. They will try and tell you it's all about efficiency in that it is more efficient to have the SSD soldered onto the board because it would allow for faster transmission of data between the SSD and the CPU/PCH. It is utterly rubbish because the gains from having soldered on SSD to having a SSD via a M2 connector on the board are miniscule.

It is ever so easy to see how the repair industry has changed with regards to customer repairs. A customer brings in their laptop saying it wont boot into the operating system anymore. A check of the laptop shows the SSD has gone faulty. A ring to the customer telling them that their SSD has gone faulty and it will cost $30 for a new one (labor time not being included at the moment). The customer is delighted at the cost and says to go ahead. Now compare that to this different version where the SSD is soldered onto the motherboard, a check of the laptop shows the SSD has gone faulty, a ring to the customer telling them that the SSD has gone faulty but because it is soldered on a new replacement motherboard is required which will cost $300. What cost do you think the customer is going to be happy with?

Apple, HP, Dell, Acer, Microsoft and many more are ripping customers off with soldered on SSD's because the customer has no choice but to buy a replacement motherboard than just a SSD. The motherboard for all intense purposes works, it powers on, displays, keyboard works, touchpad works, audio works, wifi, webcam, battery charging, everything works EXCEPT the soldered on SSD and because of that the complete motherboard needs replacing which will end up as e-waste. It's a disgrace when all it would have taken to get the machine back up and running would have been to replace the SSD, which could have been done before but not now.

 

[jlc1978]

A check of the laptop shows the SSD has gone faulty. A ring to the customer telling them that their SSD has gone faulty and it will cost $30 for a new one (labor time not being included at the moment).

I suspect when the consumer I also told it'll be a $100 for labor they are likely to be equally unhappy.

 

[seek3r]

I suspect when the consumer I also told it'll be a $100 for labor they are likely to be equally unhappy.

Not to mention a $30 ssd is likely to be utter crap compared to the stock speeds and reliability

And the appropriate question gp is missing isnt “do soldered ssds fail” it’s “do they fail less than socketed”, and the answer is typically yes. Not saying it’s the best tradeoff, I would like to be able to change ssds too, but it’s not like it’s not without benefits

 

[okkibs]

Your claim that these failures are few and far between seems to be contradicted by Louis.

That isn't a contradiction. Louis runs a Mac repair business, broken Macs is what he sees all day every day. Macs have one of the lowest failure rates amongst computers on the market so the likelyhood of your own Mac or my own Mac breaking is very low. Regardless, a small percentage of them will fail way too early and Louis sees a significant percentage of relatively new Macs like those with M1 chips come in with toasted NAND chips that make a logic board repair impossible.

All it means is that out of all the ways Apple could have added SSDs to their Macs they chose not just solder them which other manufacturers are doing too, Apple chose to do it in a way where a significant percentage of broken SSDs lead to completely unfixable devices as the failed power delivery has a good chance of taking out the NAND chips themselves and destroying the logic board in the process.

Apple can make the NAND chips removable, they did so in the Mac Studio and showed that these machines are just as fast and reliable as any other Mac. Even if we believe the claim of some users in this forum that Macbooks are too thin to allow for removable storage, there is no justification for doing that with a Mac Mini, or iMac.

With the iMac especially it's clear to see that Apple took a display and at the bottom slotted in the hardware of a Macbook just rearranged to fit the housing. Absolutely no reason the iMac couldn't have had a slot at the bottom to switch out the storage in case of a defect.

What's his agenda? If Apple fixes this issue, Louis makes less money.

Technically if Apple stopped the NAND from being fried it would make Louis more money as he could actually return repaired Macs instead of having to tell the customer that there's nothing left to do except an expensive logic board swap that might not be financially viable.

Of course there will always be broken Apple devices to fix, be it from smashed in displays or from pouring liquids over the keyboard. And it's not like Apple seems to listen anyways, year after year every device iteration retains the same issues. M1 NAND chips fry just like they do in the M2 models and now the M3 models. It's very obvious that this design works fine for Apple and they aren't in a hurry to re-engineer these Macs. Maybe with the next re-design in a couple years.

 

[pete1]

Since when do we expect AIOs to be useful for more than 9 years? I think @pete1 got a good lifespan from that 2015.

My Mum's very happy with the repaired machine and it should now last her another 9 years I should think.

 

[icanhazmac]

My Mum's very happy with the repaired machine and it should now last her another 9 years I should think.

Congrats! I hope it lasts long enough that you feel the repair cost was worth it.

As far as 9 more years though... I highly doubt it, the hardware might make it but I don't feel it would be very usable. How many 2006 systems, let alone AIOs, are usable as a daily driver today?

 

[pete1]

Congrats! I hope it lasts long enough that you feel the repair cost was worth it.

As far as 9 more years though... I highly doubt it, the hardware might make it but I don't feel it would be very usable. How many 2006 systems, let alone AIOs, are usable as a daily driver today?

Thanks! Definitely worth it, since the WD 2TB NVMe drive plus adapter totalled at less than £150. It's much faster as well, and has 4TB total storage as I left the spinning drive in.

Maybe not 9 years then but a good 6-7 assuming nothing else fails. It's still very overpowered for what my Mum uses it for: live TV, jigsaw puzzles, web browsing/shopping, emails, light Photoshop work. Things are different now than they were in the 90s and 2000s, when a Beige G3 we bought in 1998 was completely obselete by 2001.