M1 chip fast my ass...

[casperes1996]

yeah go fix apache arrow for me please 😄

Hm… Apache things are probably rather big, but I’ll have a look at least, haha.
Have you tried running Python through Rosetta?

Did it?

Back in 2017 Intel announced it was dropping BIOS support in 2020.

Intel to Remove Legacy BIOS Support from UEFI by 2020

www.anandtech.com

EFI had some traction in the early 2000's but tried to leave BIOS behind.

UEFI - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

UEFI was a adjustment to get more buy in but one of the offerings to get more buy-in was BIOS compatibility mode being required. 2005-2007 took a while for UEFI to settle down to very broad adoption. 2007 -> 2017 so 10 years to get to point Intel is willing to say going to turn transition mode off.

Kind of hard to dump odd-ball, 32-bit hackery when dragging it along in the basic boot mode of the system.

Yes, there is a solid, substantially large base of 64 bit code dating from around 2006-now . There is lots of more than 10 year old code out there to support as "legacy" and a substantial set of 15 year old code. There is large movement on some fronts , but on others there is a ton of hyper "ain't broke don't fix-it" , risk adverse folks out there also.

Yeah it’s hard to drop legacy when it’s in the boot process… So take it out of the boot process. Talk with MS, make PRs to LILO and GRUB, talk to the motherboard manufacturers and get rid of the crust.
As for old code, my take is this; If it’s a consumer or a networking machine run modernised, updated software. Otherwise that unpatched buffer overflow is going to hurt. If it’s an offline machine managing something like industrial machinery - it also doesn’t matter; Keep it as is. Don’t update the OS or the software and keep it on legacy hardware. There are still active production of 80186-like chips and PPC G3s; Low volume but it’s being made.

 

[casperes1996]

Not a smart thing to say. Run these then report back how well they work on M1:

• https://docs.nvidia.com/isaac/isaac/doc/index.html
• https://carla.org/
• https://github.com/stepjam/RLBench

Hint: you won't have any luck. So really the people not complaining about M1 are the ones that have limited use cases, those that work on the M1.

Everyone has limited use cases. Nobody is running every single possible workflow.

Also, once again, this is not about M1. Nvidia Isaac only supports Ubuntu 18.04 with an Nvidia GPU. It doesn’t support Intel Macs either.
Likewise, Carla only officially supports Windows and Linux, though I do believe it might be possible to hack that to work on macOS, M1 and x86, though I haven’t attempted, I only had a quick loo at its dependencies and requirements. But again, this isn’t about M1.
And that final one is a benchmark, not a workflow or tool. TensorFlow for M1 has been made and Apple helped in its development, CoreML of course exists and plenty more. ML isn’t really my domain but it’s plenty doable on M1

 

[maflynn]

Microsoft just killed 32-Bit support with Windows 11

Really, that's news to me as I play fallout

I think you got confused with windows 11 being shipped as 64 bit only, and windows supporting 32bit applications. The former is true, you can only install the 64 bit version of windows 11, but you can still run 32bit apps.

 

[ADGrant]

P.S. also a small bit of the "shoemaker's children having no shoes"... It was just cheaper to do one 32 bit GUI app. Lots of money gets plowed into the other "subtools" ( compilers , etc. ) and usually are large subset of these dev tools are handed out for "free" ( so where is big revenue stream to cover the tool development. ) There are direct/indirect revenue sources to cover the dev tool ecosystem but the money tends to "trickle down" from high priority components to low priority components.

I doubt many Windows developers have been hosting their development environment on a 32bit version of Windows for over a decade at this point. It is true though that Microsoft has historically under invested in its development tools, something they have been correctly recently (MS has made significant progress on C++ standards compliance recently and on Visual Studio). Apple does not directly charge for any of its development tools but they understand the strategic importance of dev tools and don't expect them to be a profit center. JetBrains has to charge for their development tools, Apple and Microsoft do not.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Likewise, Carla only officially supports Windows and Linux, though I do believe it might be possible to hack that to work on macOS, M1 and x86, though I haven’t attempted, I only had a quick loo at its dependencies and requirements. But again, this isn’t about M1.

macOS support for Carla was dropped due to Apples ecosystem mess they have created. They fully supported it in the past. It's just not worth it anymore, similar to many other tools in the scientific/research world.

And that final one is a benchmark, not a workflow or tool. TensorFlow for M1 has been made and Apple helped in its development, CoreML of course exists and plenty more. ML isn’t really my domain but it’s plenty doable on M1

That is not correct. It is an extension for CoppeliaSim and provides a learning environment specifically for reinforcement learning. There is no way this is going to work without starting over from scratch for some components in the requirements.

Of course, in theory, one can port anything to anything, C64 software to M1, M1 to C64, throw in MS DOS and Amiga and so on. It can all be done, while looking and functioning different. It's just not feasible doing it.

Quick edit:

Nvidia Isaac only supports Ubuntu 18.04 with an Nvidia GPU. It doesn’t support Intel Macs either.

Ubuntu 18.04 is recommended by Nvidia, for certification purposes (they don't certify support the 20.04+ kernels). It does of course work with other distributions. You need a Nvidia GPU of course, which is supported by older macOS versions for Intel CPUs.

 

[casperes1996]

yeah go fix apache arrow for me please 😄

It looks like one of the core Arrow developers already had it working with C++ and Python bindings back in January, with really good results:

Apache Arrow on the Apple M1

In the previous blog post I explained how I got a well-working setup on my M1 MacBook. With that in place, I mostly worked on my main work setup running. But as a core Apache Arrow developer, I was also very eager to spend the extra mile and get Arrow (the C++ and Python part) working on the M1...

uwekorn.com

If it's not in a public release yet it probably will be soon and until then a make from their GitHub repo should work

 

[casperes1996]

That is not correct. It is an extension for CoppeliaSim and provides a learning environment specifically for reinforcement learning. There is no way this is going to work without starting over from scratch for some components in the requirements.

As I said, ML isn't really my field, but the title of the GitHub README was:

RLBench: Robot Learning Benchmark ​

Sounded quite a bit like a benchmark
Regardless, again it's irrelevant to M1 v. x86.

CUDA is widely used in scientific computing and I think it's a shame that an Nvidia proprietary technology is so prolific in academia. I know of very active efforts in the ML field that runs on macOS, but it's not my domain so it may very well be one where Macs are behind on the toolchain front.

But Macs can absolutely be used in the research field as a whole. Though they are predominantly personal computers and university workstations and server clusters probably won't be Macs regardless of the software support. Though about half my professors use Macs. About 30% are on Linux. Minority on Windows

 

[scottrods]

I bought and use the M1 MacBook Pro 16 gb version... I'm not as impressed as I thought I'd be, and have had a few issues since I purchased it in January... a few weeks ago the computer went into slow motion for some reason for a couple of days, after the update to IOS 15... was so slow I went and started using a 7 year old PC all-in-one that used to be my mother-in-laws... Something in the Wireless adapter/software side would only take on short bursts of internet connection. I have gigabit Fiber to the premesis, and Eeero Wifi Pro 6 Wifi Mesh (3 Bases) in a 2000 sq ft house... Since th M1 mac only has connections for the charger and one USBC, I was stuck with no LAN connector to troubleshoot and just let the computer handle it's issue... after a couple of days the Wireless started working again and I am using it daily again... but for the price... Less than impressed that my M1 Macbook Pro went on a vacation in less than a year from purchase date... can't wait for the next major updates... Software and hardware wise I'm generally fine with, but usability during my "outage" is unexcusable on a nearly new, "best you could buy" in a Mac laptop at the time... Need to get a new battery put in my 2015 MBP and go back to using it... it was a larger display (15.4) anyway. I was much happier with it than this new higher tech M1 unit (until the battery swelled up).

 

[ADGrant]

I agree that it may not really matter if your text editor is 32-bit or 64-bit, it is also a bit about image and sending the right message. And WIndows needs to pull in a ton of 32-bit libraries when a 32-bit program is first loaded, increasing the memory footprint relative to an all 64-bit system. So sure, it’s not vital or anything, but there’s that song about starting with the man in the mirror, and as a major player like Microsoft, shipping 64-bit software just feels better to do and sends a better message about what others ought to do

Yes, most Windows or Office users would not understand or care about the difference between 32bit and 64bit applications. Visual Studio users OTOH...

 

[ADGrant]

I bought and use the M1 MacBook Pro 16 gb version... I'm not as impressed as I thought I'd be, and have had a few issues since I purchased it in January... a few weeks ago the computer went into slow motion for some reason for a couple of days, after the update to IOS 15... was so slow I went and started using a 7 year old PC all-in-one that used to be my mother-in-laws... Something in the Wireless adapter/software side would only take on short bursts of internet connection. I have gigabit Fiber to the premesis, and Eeero Wifi Pro 6 Wifi Mesh (3 Bases) in a 2000 sq ft house... Since th M1 mac only has connections for the charger and one USBC, I was stuck with no LAN connector to troubleshoot and just let the computer handle it's issue... after a couple of days the Wireless started working again and I am using it daily again... but for the price... Less than impressed that my M1 Macbook Pro went on a vacation in less than a year from purchase date... can't wait for the next major updates... Software and hardware wise I'm generally fine with, but usability during my "outage" is unexcusable on a nearly new, "best you could buy" in a Mac laptop at the time... Need to get a new battery put in my 2015 MBP and go back to using it... it was a larger display (15.4) anyway. I was much happier with it than this new higher tech M1 unit (until the battery swelled up).

If you want a trouble free ownership experience, never buy the first version of anything. Apple products, cars etc.

For Windows a slightly different rule applies. They typically have a successful major version followed by a bit of a disaster. Windows XP was replaced by Windows Vista which was replaced by Windows 7 which was replaced by Windows 8 which was replaced by Windows 11.

Windows 11 should be a disaster according to the cadence and Microsoft are getting off to a good start with the hardware requirements but, to be fair, it is too soon to tell.

 

[casperes1996]

For Windows a slightly different rule applies. They typically have a successful major version followed by a bit of a disaster. Windows XP was replaced by Windows 7 which was replaced by Windows 8 which was replaced by Windows 11.

*Vista

 

[ADGrant]

*Vista

Yes, I meant to include Vista as an off year in the cadence.

 

[scottrods]

If you want a trouble free ownership experience, never buy the first version of anything. Apple products, cars etc.

For Windows a slightly different rule applies. They typically have a successful major version followed by a bit of a disaster. Windows XP was replaced by Windows 7 which was replaced by Windows 8 which was replaced by Windows 11.

Windows 11 should be a disaster according to the cadence and Microsoft are getting off to a good start with the hardware requirements but, to be fair, it is too soon to tell.

Absolutely, but I was in a spot where I didn't feel comfortable buying an intel model Macbook pro... and my older MBP was swelling and the keyboard touching the display when closed and was afraid to keep using it (even though it did, in fact, still work. Spent so much on the new one, I am slow justifying fixing the older MBP... but soon I will).

The same approach applies to Cars as well... never buy the first year model. Usually Auto manufacturers have the bugs worked out by year 3...

 

[JMacHack]

Is this another “PC HAS TO WIN” thread?

 

[casperes1996]

Is this another “PC HAS TO WIN” thread?

I think so

 

[Bandaman]

Really, that's news to me as I play fallout

I think you got confused with windows 11 being shipped as 64 bit only, and windows supporting 32bit applications. The former is true, you can only install the 64 bit version of windows 11, but you can still run 32bit apps.

View attachment 1862510

Gotcha. Either way, they've still cut off millions of PC for the minimum requirements.

 

[Zdigital2015]

the move to kill off 32bit apps was foolish on Apple's part, there's really no if ands or buts. Apple's draconian move to basically reduce the amount of software that can run was unnecessary and limited its customers for no reason.

Why have two computers laying around that's an odd justification. I have one Pc that can run both, and apple's move made gaming on the Mac (which was already sad) down right pathetic.

Developers we’re given warning that 64-bit was coming since 2006 and that at some time, 32-bit was going to go away. Apple was not coy or disingenuous with this eventuality. Those who chose to ignore it or think Apple would pull a Microsoft apparently don’t know Apple as well as they think they do. At some point, Microsoft is going to have to break 32-but and draw a line on the sand. Of course that requires courage, so only time will tell.

It’s not pathetic - it’s called moving computing forward. Thank God we never have to worry about legacy 32-bit junk with Apple Silicon.

 

[averagenerd81]

Not a smart thing to say. Run these then report back how well they work on M1:

• https://docs.nvidia.com/isaac/isaac/doc/index.html
• https://carla.org/
• https://github.com/stepjam/RLBench

Hint: you won't have any luck. So really the people not complaining about M1 are the ones that have limited use cases, those that work on the M1.

Their point is that someone complaining about them doesn't own it, not that if you bought it expecting edge use cases to work you should complain.

First off, the opening to this thread is quite likely the most hilarious troll ever (8 pages now over boot screens is great) but now it has devolved into people with specific work cases needing specific combinations of hardware/software and being upset that the M1 doesn't do that.

I work as a system engineer and use M1 based systems for everything I do, if it didn't work for my use case I would have just purchased something else. If I purchased the M1 expecting edge cases to not work (because CLEARLY the majority of people on the planet using a computing device at this point are general use cases) wouldn't that be a poor decision on my part?

This isn't even a mountain out of a mole hill scenario, its a "I needed to tow a 10,000lbs trailer and this stupid Ford Fiesta won't do it!!!!!" situation. You buy what fits YOUR specific needs. If Apple doesn't make what you need, don't buy it?

Has humanity really come to this point? Where we make awful arguments because we dislike the reality of a situation? I understand many people would love to have the battery life and all that comes with the M1, I really like mine in the MacBook Air and my Mac mini, but that's because it works for everything I need it to do ... if it didn't and I still bought it, again, who made the mistake?

 

[averagenerd81]

I bought and use the M1 MacBook Pro 16 gb version... I'm not as impressed as I thought I'd be, and have had a few issues since I purchased it in January... a few weeks ago the computer went into slow motion for some reason for a couple of days, after the update to IOS 15... was so slow I went and started using a 7 year old PC all-in-one that used to be my mother-in-laws... Something in the Wireless adapter/software side would only take on short bursts of internet connection. I have gigabit Fiber to the premesis, and Eeero Wifi Pro 6 Wifi Mesh (3 Bases) in a 2000 sq ft house... Since th M1 mac only has connections for the charger and one USBC, I was stuck with no LAN connector to troubleshoot and just let the computer handle it's issue... after a couple of days the Wireless started working again and I am using it daily again... but for the price... Less than impressed that my M1 Macbook Pro went on a vacation in less than a year from purchase date... can't wait for the next major updates... Software and hardware wise I'm generally fine with, but usability during my "outage" is unexcusable on a nearly new, "best you could buy" in a Mac laptop at the time... Need to get a new battery put in my 2015 MBP and go back to using it... it was a larger display (15.4) anyway. I was much happier with it than this new higher tech M1 unit (until the battery swelled up).

What does iOS 15 coming out have to do with your M1 MacBook Pro running macOS?

 

[Shirasaki]

Half way reading the end of replies, I smell some pretty strong hate on 32bit. What’s wrong? Not everyone is a scientist, a coder, a YouTuber, a creator etc. Normal users seeing their apps no longer working will not praise the “64bit movement” by the industry nor they care.

Besides, 64bit can only realistically benefit so many people in so many industries. The tech industry dropping legacy stuff gives me quite some chill sometimes.

 

[robco74]

To be fair, Windows laptops need to be rebooted so often, that this is absolutely an important benchmark. For Windows users.

 

[mi7chy]

To be fair, Windows laptops need to be rebooted so often, that this is absolutely an important benchmark. For Windows users.

This is false parakeeting usually from someone who hasn't used Windows 10. I leave Windows 10 on 24/7 and never have to reboot it except for OS or driver updates. From my experience, Windows 10 is close to Linux > MacOS as far as stability and issues.

 

[TiggrToo]

This is false parakeeting usually from someone who hasn't used Windows 10. I leave Windows 10 on 24/7 and never have to reboot it except for OS or driver updates. From my experience, Windows 10 is close to Linux > MacOS as far as stability and issues.

YMMV.

The one Windows 10 workstation I have that I access remotely needs a kick about one a week. My Intel MacBook averages 2-3 weeks.

Both your measurement and mine are 100% anecdotal though.

 

[wyrdness]

That is not correct. It is an extension for CoppeliaSim and provides a learning environment specifically for reinforcement learning. There is no way this is going to work without starting over from scratch for some components in the requirements.

It seems to be a very niche project, coded entirely in Python, and very much intended for Linux. Does it work on Intel Macs?

 

[crazy dave]

Half way reading the end of replies, I smell some pretty strong hate on 32bit. What’s wrong? Not everyone is a scientist, a coder, a YouTuber, a creator etc. Normal users seeing their apps no longer working will not praise the “64bit movement” by the industry nor they care.

Besides, 64bit can only realistically benefit so many people in so many industries. The tech industry dropping legacy stuff gives me quite some chill sometimes.

The issue with 32 vs 64 bit is actually deeper than just bit-ness. When the new ISA was developed, even for x86-64 vs x86 but especially for ARM 8 vs 7, they learned from the mistakes of the previous iteration resulting in cleaner ISAs which makes producing cleaner CPU designs easier. In fact, one reason cited (among many and not necessarily the biggest reason) for why Intel cores are so big and power inefficient is support for legacy ISA features (even relative to AMD). It’s also the reason why ARM in v9 is mandating dropping 32bit. Everyone like better battery life, more portability, and quieter. Further you’ve actually got it backwards: most people aren’t bothered by such transitions, they just move on to other software that does what they need to do. It’s why there wasn’t in the end much hue and cry over the transition in the iPhone. Rather it’s professionals with specific workloads and workflows that include legacy software (ie no longer being maintained) that are impacted the most.

However, simply because the processor drops hardware supports for legacy instructions or even an entire OS disappears doesn’t mean legacy software has to die. Virtual machines, emulators, and other compatibility layers can keep such software going. It takes a little more effort but, at least for the Mac, for those who need it, it’s there.