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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
16,263
11,764
However, simply because the processor drops hardware supports for legacy instructions or even an entire OS disappears doesn’t mean legacy software has to die. Virtual machines, emulators, and other compatibility layers can keep such software going. It takes a little more effort but, at least for the Mac, for those who need it, it’s there.
This is why I am hoping future ARM chips being so powerful they can emulate something like Core i7 9900K or RTX 2080 in full speed. Heck, if nvidia is off the table, it can emulate AMD GPU as well. Not like those games only support nvidia or amd. Dunno when it will happen but for all industries to truly move away from x86, powerful emulation is pretty much required, unless they avoid x86 like plague and drop it like apple did.
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,454
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This is why I am hoping future ARM chips being so powerful they can emulate something like Core i7 9900K or RTX 2080 in full speed. Heck, if nvidia is off the table, it can emulate AMD GPU as well. Not like those games only support nvidia or amd. Dunno when it will happen but for all industries to truly move away from x86, powerful emulation is pretty much required, unless they avoid x86 like plague and drop it like apple did.

That’ll take time but yes it should get there eventually. I don’t think x86-64 or Nvidia/AMD GPUs are going away or become obsolete in the meantime ;) - at least not for Windows/Linux. And some upcoming ARM processors will be shipping with AMD GPUs. Samsung, I think, will be doing that. Keep in mind that for GPUs it’s less about emulating the underlying hardware than supporting the graphics API - Direct X or Vulcan for non-macOS systems.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,867
macOS support for Carla was dropped due to Apples ecosystem mess they have created. They fully supported it in the past. It's just not worth it anymore, similar to many other tools in the scientific/research world.
Can you provide any information supporting your claim that Carla dropped support because Apple did something bad? Because I did some searching, and this doesn't seem remotely true. The discussions I've found on the project's github issue tracker say the project's devs don't even own Macs:


It does sound like Carla has been built on macOS in the past. That's because, despite your complaints, Apple's "ecosystem mess" has all the library dependencies Carla requires. People were able to hack on the build scripts, edit a few source files, and get it built and running.

However, it also sounds like nobody ever stepped up to do the hard work: polishing the changes enough to merge them back into the main tree, then volunteering to maintain it over a long period of time. This is an issue common to all volunteer open source projects. If you don't find a sufficiently dedicated volunteer to maintain something, it's going to wither away and die.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,867
It’s also the reason why ARM in v9 is mandating dropping 32bit.

Armv9-A does no such thing.


The "EL0-only" note means that Armv9-A permits AArch32 support only in Exception Level 0, aka user mode. So you can still design an Armv9-A CPU core capable of running 32-bit user programs under a 64-bit kernel.

What's changed relative to Armv8-A is that v8 allowed 32-bit support in all four exception levels, EL0-EL3, so you could run 32-bit kernels and hypervisors.

(I haven't looked to confirm, but I'd bet a lot of money that supporting AArch32 at all is still optional, just as it was in Armv8-A.)
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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Armv9-A does no such thing.


The "EL0-only" note means that Armv9-A permits AArch32 support only in Exception Level 0, aka user mode. So you can still design an Armv9-A CPU core capable of running 32-bit user programs under a 64-bit kernel.

What's changed relative to Armv8-A is that v8 allowed 32-bit support in all four exception levels, EL0-EL3, so you could run 32-bit kernels and hypervisors.

(I haven't looked to confirm, but I'd bet a lot of money that supporting AArch32 at all is still optional, just as it was in Armv8-A.)

I stand corrected. Weird, I could’ve sworn it was restricted out completely rather than simply limited to EL0.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,867
I stand corrected. Weird, I could’ve sworn it was restricted out completely rather than simply limited to EL0.
I think I've seen otherwise respectable tech journalists claim things like that, probably because they thought Arm Holdings disclosing future AArch64-only Armv9 core designs implied that the Armv9 spec mandated fully dropping AArch32. Wouldn't surprise me if that's where you picked up the idea.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,454
1,230
I think I've seen otherwise respectable tech journalists claim things like that, probably because they thought Arm Holdings disclosing future AArch64-only Armv9 core designs implied that the Armv9 spec mandated fully dropping AArch32. Wouldn't surprise me if that's where you picked up the idea.

Ah … okay. That’s probably it.

But given that not many beyond Apple do custom cores and I’ve not seen anyone say their upcoming custom cores will support AArch32 (though they might), as a practical matter 32bit support will be rare going forwards in the ARM world even if it is not strictly restricted. :)
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
Half way reading the end of replies, I smell some pretty strong hate on 32bit. What’s wrong? Not everyone is a scientist, a coder, a YouTuber, a creator etc. Normal users seeing their apps no longer working will not praise the “64bit movement” by the industry nor they care.

Besides, 64bit can only realistically benefit so many people in so many industries. The tech industry dropping legacy stuff gives me quite some chill sometimes.

The apps most "normal users" run on their Macs have probably been 64bit for years. 32bit applications have been an edge case on MacOS for years now. You are more likely to have a problem with the OS version.

On Intel Macs, I think it is possible to run an older version of MacOS in a VM but I have not tried it.
 
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ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
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Can you provide any information supporting your claim that Carla dropped support because Apple did something bad? Because I did some searching, and this doesn't seem remotely true. The discussions I've found on the project's github issue tracker say the project's devs don't even own Macs:


It does sound like Carla has been built on macOS in the past. That's because, despite your complaints, Apple's "ecosystem mess" has all the library dependencies Carla requires. People were able to hack on the build scripts, edit a few source files, and get it built and running.

However, it also sounds like nobody ever stepped up to do the hard work: polishing the changes enough to merge them back into the main tree, then volunteering to maintain it over a long period of time. This is an issue common to all volunteer open source projects. If you don't find a sufficiently dedicated volunteer to maintain something, it's going to wither away and die.

I saw references to building a Windows version. MacOS should actually be much simpler since it is Unix and C++ toolchains are very similar. MacOS uses Clang by default (as does BSD Unix) and Linux uses gcc by default but both compilers are available on both platforms and I have found code that compiles with gcc on linux normally also compiles with Clang on MacOS without any changes. This is not always the case with the Microsoft compiler.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
16,263
11,764
The apps most "normal users" run on their Macs have probably been 64bit for years. 32bit applications have been an edge case on MacOS for years now. You are more likely to have a problem with the OS version.

On Intel Macs, I think it is possible to run an older version of MacOS in a VM but I have not tried it.
I’m not talking about just macOS, I’m also mentioning windows and Linux as some people are suggesting Intel and amd ditching x86 support rather quickly for the sake of “advancement” and “improvements” provided by 64bit or they will “bankrupt quickly”.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
This is false parakeeting usually from someone who hasn't used Windows 10. I leave Windows 10 on 24/7 and never have to reboot it except for OS or driver updates. From my experience, Windows 10 is close to Linux > MacOS as far as stability and issues.

I have Windows 10 on a bootcamp partition. I typically don't have it running very long so it has been stable in that regard. However, I can't update my video drivers anymore or install any security patches because one of Microsofts updates seems to have screwed everything up. I am probably going to have to restore the OS.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
I’m not talking about just macOS, I’m also mentioning windows and Linux as some people are suggesting Intel and amd ditching x86 support rather quickly for the sake of “advancement” and “improvements” provided by 64bit or they will “bankrupt quickly”.
Well "normal users" don't typically run Linux as a desktop OS. Even on Windows, most apps have been 64bit for some time except for some weird exceptions like Visual Studio.
 

casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,599
5,770
Horsens, Denmark
I stand corrected. Weird, I could’ve sworn it was restricted out completely rather than simply limited to EL0.

I think I've seen otherwise respectable tech journalists claim things like that, probably because they thought Arm Holdings disclosing future AArch64-only Armv9 core designs implied that the Armv9 spec mandated fully dropping AArch32. Wouldn't surprise me if that's where you picked up the idea.
My understanding is that ARMv9 is *not* removing all 32-bit support, however, ARM *is* removing all 32-bit support from a number of their core designs. In fact, there's even an ARMv8 core design with 64-bit only
1634016765024.png

(Not the horse's own mouth, but as good as)
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
Though they are predominantly personal computers and university workstations and server clusters probably won't be Macs regardless of the software support.
Clusters are different, but workstations, sure. Been using Macs for ages, so are many of my computer science and math students, as well as colleagues. Many are switching though due to ongoing problems. Our whole IT department is using Macs (MBAs), spoke to one of the last week and they wish they'd have gone for Dell/Lenovo now after being happy initially.
Can you provide any information supporting your claim that Carla dropped support because Apple did something bad?
Use a wayback machine, they had it on their website in the past. Me and my research group have been using it for years. Apple is always breaking something and it's not just one software project. Do a search for the proxy communication in the Unity engine when using it for something like the ML-Agents toolkit, which broke several times after Apple updated the OS. It's just not worth fixing. I've dropped macOS support for several Unity and Unreal based projects as well this year.

It's just not worth the time. I've defended Apple a lot in the past, bought pretty much everything they released for my private use and business. Worked with Apple on international projects on site and in Cupertino. It's just not worth my time anymore. At this point, I'm totally fine with Linux. I'm gonna keep an eye on scientific/research software support for macOS, might even buy the next MBA for reading/writing and probably keep using my current Apple machines for Capture One. Other than that, I just don't care anymore.
 
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casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,599
5,770
Horsens, Denmark
Clusters are different, but workstations, sure. Been using Macs for ages, so are many of my computer science and math students, as well as colleagues. Many are switching though due to ongoing problems. Our whole IT department is using Macs (MBAs), spoke to one of the last week and they wish they'd have gone for Dell/Lenovo now after being happy initially.

I think you misunderstood what I meant when I wrote workstation - I probably wasn't clear enough there. - I don't mean machines students use to work with; I use Macs for that myself and almost all my peers do. I mean if you have a machine you ship CUDA tasks to or something like that, it wouldn't have been a Mac in past years either.

Ironically opposite to your experiences, Mac people at my uni can run everything they need to. Windows people need to run things in VMs or dual boot Linux
 

MBAir2010

macrumors 604
May 30, 2018
6,975
6,354
there
the main concern should be how long these batteries last
and the storage gouging the M1 chip suppose-ive-lie provides.
but only time will tell
 

scottrods

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2017
122
83
Garland, TX
What does iOS 15 coming out have to do with your M1 MacBook Pro running macOS?
I knew someone catch that... it was the timeint of the same release... just what came to mind at the time of writing the post... but good catch. I also did not say that iOS 15 was the cause... just the when. And I also explained that the problem "fixed itself" in a couple of days. Which is a positive on the M1 mac's part. At least it didn't brick on me.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
I don't mean machines students use to work with; I use Macs for that myself and almost all my peers do. I mean if you have a machine you ship CUDA tasks to or something like that, it wouldn't have been a Mac in past years either.
Neither do I. Workstation is still a desk solution though, something like a Dell Precision 7920 or a Mac Pro. Shipping off we do to clusters with thousands of CPU cores and many GPUs, while a workstation is more like up to 48/64 CPU cores and 4 GPUs max.
Ironically opposite to your experiences, Mac people at my uni can run everything they need to. Windows people need to run things in VMs or dual boot Linux
Depends on what you're working on I guess. We're focussed on AI research, working together with car and car parts manufacturers (BMW, Volvo, Audi, Continental, mobileye, etc.), robotics manufacturers like Kuka, ABB, Boston Dynamics, Kawada, etc., but also other autonomous systems with NASA/ESA and a few others. Others might not have those requirements. Our security research group is really a mix of Lenovo and Macs, I'd say the Lenovo/Linux guys are more "applied" research and those doing theoretical work (post quantum cryptography, etc.) are more on macOS.
 

smetvid

macrumors 6502a
Nov 1, 2009
555
439
Alright, well I'm wrong then about the raw performance, no shame in admitting that. But it remains true that there is so very, very, very little to run on M1 processors compared to the incalculable wealth of x86 software out there. This is normal right now obviously, but despite the hopium everyone's on regarding the M1, there is still going to be a staggering and permanent loss in the total capability of the Mac as a platform due to developers choosing to not port their apps (it will be this way, they are not all ready and excitedly waiting to port port port at Apple's whim... what next, dropping the Arm instruction set for an Apple custom set? It never ends), not to mention the cataclysmic loss that recently occurred due to the death of 32-bit execution already. And just wait until the Rosetta 2 death hammer comes down. Macs are fast becoming the computer to run essentially Apple pro apps and Photoshop/Illustrator and not much else.

M2 comes out: Well guys... we could... test Photoshop again?
Almost every single application I run is native Apple Silicon. The ones that do run through rosetta run faster than my Intel 6 core Mac mini. Heck even the open source Blender now has native M1 support.

In fact most apps seem to run faster on M1 using emulation than they do on native x86 processors. Its actually the opposite and only a handful of apps run better on x86.

Plus ho many obscure apps are you talking about? Most Mac users use specific applications. Either those that come with MacOS, content creation apps which most now support native Apple Silicon or other productivity applications they get through the App Store or externally like Microsoft Office.

Are you by any chance talking about games? Despite what you think gaming makes up a very small market of Mac users. Many of us don't buy a Mac to game with. We have consoles for that.
 
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