M1 chip fast my ass...

[Steve8383]

don't fall for the hype

Do you actually own something faster? Does the device not complete the tasks you give it? Don't be a bench racer.

 

[JMacHack]

Ah yes, I know what you mean. Yeah, there is just no point in arguing with folks like that, their critical worldview ends at "you should like Starbucks because I ever had real coffee"

Less than a page later:

Sorry, no. Since Mac's don't have discrete graphics, it changes nothing. If you're only talking very light gaming, yes that would be right, but not serious gaming and given the discussion, it seems everyone is talking about getting serious gaming for the Mac.

Case in point: “no serious gaming”
Ignoring the fact that the igpu on the m1x will likely be as powerful as current gen consoles.

Unless you consider console games “not real gaming” this holds no water.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Apple silicon moves the goalposts for Mac gaming. No longer are the majority of Macs sold equipped with Intel iGPUs. AAA games run on M1 equivalent hardware, and software follows the market.

Again? Plenty of thread out there exists for Mac gaming on M-series chips and what it means. I've done the math on feasibility in two different threads already, why Mac gaming isn't attractive for the gaming industry, how much porting costs and revenue created.

Mac market share in gaming is under 2%, that needs to change massively which it won't in the current eco system and involved costs. What remains is lightweight arcade style games done in Unity/Unreal when flipping a switch is enough to recompile for macOS. And for those games GPU performance is irrelevant.

Also, Apple has nothing GPU wise that we don't already have from Nvidia/AMD and that's not goin to change anytime soon either. Apple has a dramatically lower power consumption, but that doesn't matter much for gaming either as most gaming systems are plugged in on a desk (desktop or laptop). iPad is much more attractive for mobile gaming.

 

[casperes1996]

I think we agree more than disagree.

Though I really have a bad taste taste in my mouth with regards to M1's graphics capabilities. It's soo limited and I've hit too many bugs to think any better of it. Me buying a MBA was really a mistake, I should have waited for V2.

Yeah I think we agree more than disagree too.

If one needs serious GPU power, the M1 isn't the greatest choice. But it's a heck of a lot better than the machines it replaces

 

[m1maverick]

Reading and writing data is the most important benchmark for a drive; however, that is not the most important benchmark for a computer.

I think it depends on the application for the computer. For example database systems can benefit from fast I/O.

That said the comments about fast boot / application load times were made wrt to speeding up older computers. The recommendation was to replace a traditional HD with an SSD. While fast boot / application load times are welcome the improvement tends to be milliseconds to a handful of seconds (in most cases). Combine this with the infrequency which these tasks are performed and I would have a difficult time recommending the installation of an SSD into an older computer solely for this reason.

 

[m1maverick]

The SSD vs. HDD debate has ended half a decade ago, and SSDs have many more advantages that speeding up the boot sequence. Modern Macs have instantaneous resume from sleep, consume practically no power while sleeping and can go without shutting down for many months. It's simply not a relevant benchmark anymore. And sure, there are people who prefer to turn their computer off every time, but frankly, why waste resources (and potentially compromising security) optimizing the experience for a small subset of users that are adamant on using the devices in a suboptimal way?

I think you misunderstand my position on this benchmark. IMO faster boot / application load times was, IMO, never a relevant benchmark. I'm sure there were some edge cases / configurations where slow boot / application load times were an issue and could benefit from an SSD but outside of that it was never a useful benchmark.

 

[bobcomer]

Why wouldn’t it? If Apple iGPUs are as fast as mainstream dGPUs, why does it even matter? At some point the nomenclature distinction kind of becomes irrelevant, don’t you think?

They aren't for now, who knows about the future. Any chicken counting right now is WAY premature. And do remember the discrete manufacturers aren't standing still either...

 

[bobcomer]

That said the comments about fast boot / application load times were made wrt to speeding up older computers. The recommendation was to replace a traditional HD with an SSD. While fast boot / application load times are welcome the improvement tends to be milliseconds to a handful of seconds (in most cases). Combine this with the infrequency which these tasks are performed and I would have a difficult time recommending the installation of an SSD into an older computer solely for this reason.

One question, have you ever did the upgrade?

I can tell you it speeds everything up on a Windows system. (and I think you are forgetting about swap big time in your "infrequency".) Same goes for MacOS, as I've performed the same upgrade on older Macbook Pros.

 

[leman]

They aren't for now, who knows about the future. Any chicken counting right now is WAY premature. And do remember the discrete manufacturers aren't standing still either...

Actually, yes, they are. M1 is very much comparable with entry level mobile dGPUs. Looking at the steam hardware survey, M1 seems to be faster than 15-20% off all registered GPUs (it’s roughly compatible to a 1050/1050 Ti, which are the most popular steam GPU currently with over 8% of all users).

 

[bobcomer]

Less than a page later:


Case in point: “no serious gaming”
Ignoring the fact that the igpu on the m1x will likely be as powerful as current gen consoles.

Unless you consider console games “not real gaming” this holds no water.

egg counting. Until we have real benchmarks, speculating it will be as fast as current consoles doesn't work. (and I find hard to believe until I see said benchmarks.)

 

[bobcomer]

Actually, yes, they are. M1 is very much comparable with entry level mobile dGPUs.

The key there is entry level mobile, and all I have to say to that is so what?

 

[leman]

egg counting. Until we have real benchmarks, speculating it will be as fast as current consoles doesn't work. (and I find hard to believe until I see said benchmarks.)

But we do have real benchmarks! GFXBench is cross platform (even though it’s a bit limited). We have the new 3dmark Wild Life Extreme which is optimized for Apple Silicon and DX12. We have games such as Metro, Baldurs Gates 3, Total War series…

 

[leman]

The key there is entry level mobile, and all I have to say to that is so what?

The key here is that these are real GPUs used by people who play games. If M1 is as good or better than 20% of current GPUs on steam, well, that’s a quantitative fact.

 

[bobcomer]

But we do have real benchmarks! GFXBench is cross platform (even though it’s a bit limited). We have the new 3dmark Wild Life Extreme which is optimized for Apple Silicon and DX12. We have games such as Metro, Baldurs Gates 3, Total War series…

But we don't have M1X or M2. We know what the M1 does, and it's not that impressive.

 

[m1maverick]

One question, have you ever did the upgrade?

I can tell you it speeds everything up on a Windows system. (and I think you are forgetting about swap big time in your "infrequency".) Same goes for MacOS, as I've performed the same upgrade on older Macbook Pros.

I have performed the upgrade several times. My boot time decreased by a noticeable but not significant amount. I'm certain application launch times decreased but nothing that was perceptible. Given how infrequently I boot my systems faster boot times are of little importance to me. The same with application launches.

What wasn't faster were my applications. Most, if not all, are not disk bound thus an SSD adds little value with them. If you're frequently hitting swap then you need more memory, not a faster swap disk. Swap is not a substitute for RAM. If your current system cannot accommodate the amount of memory your workload requires then you need a more capable system. But this is a side note as the original discussion was boot / application load time.

Don't get me wrong as I typically use SSDs instead of HDDs unless I need a large amount of storage. However I find it difficult to recommend installing an SSD into an old computer unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Faster boot / application launch times are not, IMO, it.

 

[dgdosen]

That whole hyperspace-like tweet makes me think Apple is pretty confident about perf. Let’s see how that confidence measures up to the skepticism. Won’t have long to wait.

 

[bobcomer]

The key here is that these are real GPUs used by people who play games. If M1 is as good or better than 20% of current GPUs on steam, well, that’s a quantitative fact.

Again, so what, that means it's slower than 80%. Not everyone can afford GPU's in that 80% category.

As for Steam, that's a different subject and one I'm not so hot on. There are a lot of Steam games that an iGPU/low end dGPU is more than enough...

 

[boss.king]

We know what the M1 does, and it's not that impressive.

But it is. For its power draw, it's an incredible chip. When compared to chips in its class from other manufacturers, it mops the floor in most metrics. The only people not impressed are the ones who don't really understand what's going on.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

But we don't have M1X or M2. We know what the M1 does, and it's not that impressive.

It is very impressive for the power consumption, not the pure performance. There are also non-gaming tasks for which the performance is impressive, but bottlenecks start to show up in other cases and it falls way back. Overall, for a Laptop GPU it's nice due to the power consumption, but doesn't stand a chance against Nvida/AMD offerings for pure performance. It also has shortcomings for number of connected displays. Let's wait and see what happens next week.

 

[bobcomer]

I have performed the upgrade several times. My boot time decreased by a noticeable but not significant amount. I'm certain application launch times decreased but nothing that was perceptible. Given how infrequently I boot my systems faster boot times are of little importance to me. The same with application launches.

I think I'm misunderstanding your argument -- I'm not talking about boot times, that's a meaningless argument to me too unless they are REALLY REALLY long. (though a 2011 boots up minutes faster with a SSD over that old 2.5" HD.)

I'm talking about real world usage only.

What wasn't faster were my applications. Most, if not all, are not disk bound thus an SSD adds little value with them. If you're frequently hitting swap then you need more memory, not a faster swap disk. Swap is not a substitute for RAM. If your current system cannot accommodate the amount of memory your workload requires then you need a more capable system. But this is a side note as the original discussion was boot / application load time.

That's where we disagree, and by quite a lot, they've definitely been substantially faster here. Most Mac's I've ever changed were RAM constrained as well. The 2011 I mentioned above only had the capability of 16G of RAM) My own Intel Mac has 64G of RAM, so it would make less of a difference there.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

The only people not impressed are the ones who don't really understand what's going on.

That old argument again, "you don't agree, so you have no idea".

Should we build on that a little? "Anyone who doesn't have a PhD in a relevant field (EE/CS) and a professorship at an Ivy League university or equivalent in another country can't understand what's going on!".

So, now what? Don't be a butthurt Apple fanboy. Give them credit where credit is due and criticize them for things their screw up. You only care about power consumption, M1 is the best choice. You need pure performance, then you're better off somewhere else. These things simply don't go hand in hand right now.

 

[bobcomer]

But it is. For its power draw, it's an incredible chip.

That means absolutely nothing to me. Power costs are minimal where I live and work. PC's take so little power compared to other machines, it just doesn't even show up as a blip on the graph.

not the pure performance.

That's what I want, pure performance. What gets my job done sooner saves more money than any other power costs.

 

[boss.king]

That means absolutely nothing to me. Power costs are minimal where I live and work. PC's take so little power compared to other machines, it just doesn't even show up as a blip on the graph.

And none of that has any bearing on whether the M1 performs impressively. It just means it's not the right chip for your needs.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

That's what I want, pure performance. What gets my job done sooner saves more money than any other power costs.

Go for a Razer Blade Studio with RTX5000. The power brick is large/heavy though. I have one and it runs circles around my fully loaded MBP16, while being less noisy as well. You obviously want this to be connected to power for anything GPU heavy. I'm running dual boot Pop!_OS/Win10 on it. If it's too big, the Blade 14 is nice and comes with 3060/3070/3080 GPUs. And if you don't need the GPU for mobile tasks, I'm just about to order a 14" ThinkPad X1C with Intel CPU which allows to use eGPU. Should hopefully be here within two weeks and I'll try to connect a Titan RTX and RTX8000 to it in an external box. Will do Pop!_OS/Win10 on it as well.

 

[bobcomer]

Go for a Razer Blade Studio with RTX5000. The power brick is large/heavy though. I have one and it runs circles around my fully loaded MBP16, while being less noisy as well. You obviously want this to be connected to power for anything GPU heavy. I'm running dual boot Pop!_OS/Win10 on it. If it's too big, the Blade 14 is nice and comes with 3060/3070/3080 GPUs. And if you don't need the GPU for mobile tasks, I'm just about to order a 14" ThinkPad X1C with Intel CPU which allows to use eGPU. Should hopefully be here within two weeks and I'll try to connect a Titan RTX and RTX8000 to it in an external box. Will do Pop!_OS/Win10 on it as well.

I'm not really a gamer, but I can tell you I was really impressed with the last Lenovo Yoga I set up, very fast and well equipped. (AMD Processor)

You'll like the X1C, that's what I'm typing on right now, though it's an older version. (work laptop)