Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,149
14,574
New Hampshire
Exactly....

I can understand debating if a M1 MBP (or any other "Pro" Apple device) should be considered a pro device, but the OP is asking if it is fair to be compare the M1 MBP to devices with i7+ chips in them.

To me, the answer is yes.

If Apple is going to market the MBP as "powerful" and "pro", then being compared to mid to high range spec machines is completely fair.

I disagree.

My minimum requirements are 3x4k support and 64 GB of RAM minimum. An i7-10700k iMac is actually a much better fit than any M1 system. And that iMac is not even an iMac Pro.

The Mac Mini is marketed as NOT being a Pro system. Even though you can stick 64 GB of RAM in it (I'd guess that you could even put in 128 GB).
 
  • Haha
Reactions: calstanford

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,149
14,574
New Hampshire
I have no gripe with people comparing M1 to top of the line x86 CPUs — it is an interesting and relevant comparison in order to learn about the technology and engineering choices. But I am quite surprised that some people conclude that M1 is "nothing special" because it does't outperform desktop CPUs three times it's size and 6 times it's power consumption...

And even more surprising, it's quite often that I read something like "M1 is a very large chip, Apple is going to have difficulty to scale...". Really folks? M1 is 120mm2, Tiger Lake is 146mm2, Renoir (4800U) is 150mm2. In which world is M1 considered a "large chip"?

This discussion will be moot when the M1X systems come out.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
1,899
Anchorage, AK
No they don't.

Their Intel 13 inch models offer 4 ports, 32 GB RAM and 4 TB options. And the Core i7.

Their 16 inch models offer up to 64 GB of RAM and up to 8 TB SSD. And are only Core i7 and i9.

The Ultrabook category was created with the MacBook Air.

The REMAINING Intel models offer 4 ports, up to 32GB RAM, and up to 4TB SSD. That's the one Apple did not replace last month. Also the "Ultrabook" category and specifications were created by Intel, not Apple, and was introduced by Intel at the 2011 Computex conference. Apple does not even show up as having an ultrabook, and actually positioned the MacBook Air against Ultrabooks when first announced, touting its superior performance, full-sized keyboard, and port selection as advantages over the ultrabook category.

 

hugodrax

macrumors 65816
Jul 15, 2007
1,225
640

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,149
14,574
New Hampshire
The REMAINING Intel models offer 4 ports, up to 32GB RAM, and up to 4TB SSD. That's the one Apple did not replace last month. Also the "Ultrabook" category and specifications were created by Intel, not Apple, and was introduced by Intel at the 2011 Computex conference. Apple does not even show up as having an ultrabook, and actually positioned the MacBook Air against Ultrabooks when first announced, touting its superior performance, full-sized keyboard, and port selection as advantages over the ultrabook category.


If you ask the average person on the street if the MacBook Air is an ultrabook, what will they say?
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
People keep harping on all it takes it 5nm to beat or meet M1 performance. The big bottleneck on x86 is the backwards compatibility and actually microarchitecture is what's holding back performance. Intel needs to plan on a clean sheet modern design.

This is so silly. As if going from 7nm to 5nm will give AMD a 50% improvement in power efficiency...
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,149
14,574
New Hampshire
This is so silly. As if going from 7nm to 5nm will give AMD a 50% improvement in power efficiency...

It may give some improvement but Intel has really milked 14 nm for all it's worth. It may give better transistor density enabling more transistors and some improved IPC.

My overall belief is that the two big advantages are the instruction decoders (twice as many as AMD and Intel) and specialized operations on chip. If someone has specific information on other areas (and is a chip EE), please chime in.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
My overall belief is that the two big advantages are the instruction decoders (twice as many as AMD and Intel) and specialized operations on chip. If someone has specific information on other areas (and is a chip EE), please chime in.

And more execution units, larger cache, fast memory subsystem....
 
  • Like
Reactions: jdb8167

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,308
8,320
Isn’t all this discussion a bit pointless anyway? If Apple are marketing them as pro machines then it’s reasonable to compare them to other pro machines. Apple can’t market them as pro machines and then say’ “no no no. Just compare them to ultra books please”. I still say that price is the main underlying factor in comparisons anyway... surely there can be no complaints if the air is being compared to other £1000 laptops?
They can call it whatever they want, and consumers can make whatever comparisons they want. Whether or not something is called "pro" doesn't change what's inside. The Air might have enough power for a "pro" user, depending on what that "pro" needs.

The 13" Pro, even the base model, has the Touch Bar and a brighter screen, and different speakers and microphones. This year Apple narrowed the gap considerably since they gave the Air the same processor and a P3 screen gamut.
 

KShopper

macrumors member
Nov 26, 2020
84
116
What I love about the PCWorld tests is that it never occurs them at all that they should re-run their benchmarks with the laptop *unplugged* and see what happens. These are still portable machines, riiight?? :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jouls

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,149
14,574
New Hampshire
What I love about the PCWorld tests is that it never occurs them at all that they should re-run their benchmarks with the laptop *unplugged* and see what happens. These are still portable machines, riiight?? :)

There are lots of reviewers that do run benchmarks with the laptop, usually the XPS 13, unplugged.
 

s66

Suspended
Dec 12, 2016
472
661
I have no gripe with people comparing M1 to top of the line x86 CPUs — it is an interesting and relevant comparison in order to learn about the technology and engineering choices. But I am quite surprised that some people conclude that M1 is "nothing special" because it does't outperform desktop CPUs three times it's size and 6 times it's power consumption...

And even more surprising, it's quite often that I read something like "M1 is a very large chip, Apple is going to have difficulty to scale...". Really folks? M1 is 120mm2, Tiger Lake is 146mm2, Renoir (4800U) is 150mm2. In which world is M1 considered a "large chip"?
I actually agree from an engineering interest to see the data of the hardware and understand why in this case the M1 does what it can do as far as possible without the juicy details from Apple itself. After that, I might compare them myself and learn from that as well.
I actually bought an M1 mac mini to try it out (and use afterwards connected to our TV replacing a 2014 mac mini). It's impressive so far (and I'm used to a MP7,1: so to not feel slow, to not crash the OS for a new architecture, etc: all are significant achievements IMHO)

But seeing other's conclusions based on marketing terminology such as "ultrabook" or "pro" etc. to determine which apples need to be compared to what oranges: I call BS on those opinions and related conclusions -whichever way they go-.
Those comparisons are also aiming at convincing people the PC or the MAC is a better choice. I've made my mind up a long time ago: MAC is the only option for me, never again will I buy a wintel device, and given the option that goes for using it too. I'm sure there are those who've picked the other choice: while I think they could do better for themselves, I don't go out onto windows forums and try to troll them. But I do want them to give me the same respect on here.

As for the M1: it's been positioned in the lowest end of the mac lineup by Apple. So anybody not understanding it's the entry level component is just being intentionally unfair in my book.
As to what apple has up their sleeve for the higher end mini, the imac (pro), the higher end MBP, the MP: we can only wait and see. I'm sure that Apple has stuff in their pipeline for a long time already as the lead time on this stuff is not short at all. I'd not even be surprised if they not only have the rest of the product portfolio covered, but also a roadmap and associated pipeline underway in their R&D depts. for the next x years as well. This would also still include multiple options that will not all come out into products just as well.
Without all of that: it would be insane for Tim to go up on stage earlier this year and announce the 2 year transition. Esp. as his surroundings will know very well there is a long development process on these things and as such the risk of committing to such a transition without a solid battleplan and assurances they can do it.

The comparison itself simply doesn't matter: In the end there's certain hardware that is capable of doing certain things: pick the one that meets your needs and fits in your budget. Optimizing makes sense, but if you want macOS or Windows is for most a choice with only one viable option. As only one is meeting their needs.
 
Last edited:

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,308
8,320
The REMAINING Intel models offer 4 ports, up to 32GB RAM, and up to 4TB SSD. That's the one Apple did not replace last month. Also the "Ultrabook" category and specifications were created by Intel, not Apple, and was introduced by Intel at the 2011 Computex conference. Apple does not even show up as having an ultrabook, and actually positioned the MacBook Air against Ultrabooks when first announced, touting its superior performance, full-sized keyboard, and port selection as advantages over the ultrabook category.

Intel created the “Ultrabook” concept to offer Windows OEMs a platform to compete against the MacBook Air. Although the Air wasn’t the first ultraportable, the 2010 Air was the first to achieve mainstream commercial success because of its $999 price (and because it addressed many of the design limitations of the original Air).
 
  • Like
Reactions: lupinglade

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
They can call it whatever they want, and consumers can make whatever comparisons they want. Whether or not something is called "pro" doesn't change what's inside. The Air might have enough power for a "pro" user, depending on what that "pro" needs.

The 13" Pro, even the base model, has the Touch Bar and a brighter screen, and different speakers and microphones. This year Apple narrowed the gap considerably since they gave the Air the same processor and a P3 screen gamut.
I'm what probably would be called a professional developer. My 16 GB/1TB M1 MacBook Pro is faster than my 6 core/12 thread 2013 Mac Pro for most things that I do. It easily replaces the MP for everything that I do as a "pro" (I hate that concept).

Edit: And I should note, the MP never seemed slow for anything I've ever used it for.
 

/V\acpower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 31, 2007
631
500
If Apple labels the MacBook Pro as "Pro", it is fair to compare it to other laptops in the Prosumer category.
Lenovo don’t really make laptops for peoples who do « Yoga ».

Pro is just branding.

Since 2016 Apple always had the low end two thunderbolt MacBook Pro kind of a glorified MacBook Air. It always had 16 GB or max ram and lower wattage cpu.

That’s the computer they replaced with the M1. But clearly the other MBP are not going to get the same M1 when they are finally updated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hans1972

/V\acpower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 31, 2007
631
500
Exactly....

I can understand debating if a M1 MBP (or any other "Pro" Apple device) should be considered a pro device, but the OP is asking if it is fair to be compare the M1 MBP to devices with i7+ chips in them.

To me, the answer is yes.

If Apple is going to market the MBP as "powerful" and "pro", then being compared to mid to high range spec machines is completely fair.
It’s not fair because the M1 is clearly not their whole chip lineup.

They will release a new chip in 2021 for sure that will not replace the M1, it will simply be the chip for their higher end MBP (and prob. some iMacs).

In two years, when the transition to AS is over, the guy who will have needs for a high performance laptop won’t look at the MBA or base « two thunderbolt ports » MBP, he will look at the higher end MBP that use the chip that will be in the higher tier than the M1.
 

andrewstirling

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2015
715
425
It’s not fair because the M1 is clearly not their whole chip lineup.

They will release a new chip in 2021 for sure that will not replace the M1, it will simply be the chip for their higher end MBP (and prob. some iMacs).

In two years, when the transition to AS is over, the guy who will have needs for a high performance laptop won’t look at the MBA or base « two thunderbolt ports » MBP, he will look at the higher end MBP that use the chip that will be in the higher tier than the M1.

But say someone has £1400 to spend on a laptop... is it no reasonable for them to compare a range of laptops at that price point to establish what the best purchase is?
 

Tchakatak

macrumors member
Dec 15, 2020
52
69
But say someone has £1400 to spend on a laptop... is it no reasonable for them to compare a range of laptops at that price point to establish what the best purchase is?
While I agree with this statement, I still do think MacBook Pro are Pro machines. Not every pro as the same use case. I am a travel videographer, and (normally) spend a lot of time in really warm places. Having an "Active Cooling" is for me a must have.
While performance might be the same between the Air and the Pro m1.. the more it goes and the more we can see differences in there :
Screen brighter and better than the Air (See the red and white uniformity issue on the Air).
Sustained speed in every environment (Try to render 4k timeline in a country like Thailand or Indonesia when its 38+°C outside without a fan :) )
A little bit more battery.
The frame is more robust to wear and tear.

I had to go for years with a 15/16 inch machine.. I am really happy that now I can pack 5 time the performance of my 2013 15 retina GT 750m in a 13 inch.
 

Juicy Box

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2014
7,580
8,920
I think people get a little bent out of shape about comparing their "team's" products against the competition.

If a particular comparison shows their team's chip is the best, then that must be a fair comparison. If the competition is better, than obviously the test was unfair. /s


I am an Apple guy, but there is nothing wrong with the M1 being compared to higher-end competitors. I want M1 to be compared to the higher-end chips in real world situations. I want to know how it performs under different scenarios. I want to know how it stacks up.

Just because the latest i9 Intel beats the M1 in certain categories doesn't mean the i9 is the better chip, and the same goes for the M1.

Most PC guys are never going to give the M1 any credit that is due, so the OP should pretty much forget about it.

Instead of focusing on the things that you perceive as unfair, why not think about how amazing that the Apple M1 is even being compared to the likes of Intel and their higher-end chips. This is Apple's first Mac chip, and from here, they have no where to go but up.


Pro is just branding.
While true, it opens the door to being compared to mid and higher performance machines.

Apple labels the 13" MBP as a high performance compact notebook, and it should be compared as such.



It’s not fair because the M1 is clearly not their whole chip lineup.
It is fair, because it IS currently the their whole chip lineup.

They will release a new chip in 2021 for sure that will not replace the M1, it will simply be the chip for their higher end MBP (and prob. some iMacs).
And whenever Apple release them, the new chips should be compared to the M1, and all the other mid to high-end chips from Intel as well.
 

radus

macrumors 6502a
Jan 12, 2009
720
447
The M1 is a large step forward for Apple. But inside the Apple-Universe we are only able to compare it against the old 9th generation of Intel i9 - Chips and some 10th gen i7.
So reviews comparing against the 11th gen. Intel Chips and new AMD processors are very welcome.
For us as users and customers competition is a good thing.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
But say someone has £1400 to spend on a laptop... is it no reasonable for them to compare a range of laptops at that price point to establish what the best purchase is?

Depends on what you want to get. There are certainly laptops that offer more performance in that price range, if you don't mind the larger form factor, worse display, and worse battery life. If you want a dedicated gaming laptop, there are a lot of choices that would certainly work better. But in the premium ultraportable market, where M1 laptops are positioned, they have a very strong value proposition. Their closest spiritual rivals (such as Dell XPS 13) are more expensive while offering worse performance and significantly worse battery life. The MacBook Air in particular is currently unbeatable if you are looking for a well-rounded high-quality laptop.

I think people get a little bent out of shape about comparing their "team's" products against the competition.

Completely agree. Which is why I find it funny that people compare it to desktop computers and say "aha! you see, it's not that good after all"
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
Completely agree. Which is why I find it funny that people compare it to desktop computers and say "aha! you see, it's not that good after all"
I'm going to feel sorry for those people when the next round of ASi Macs happens.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.