M1 graphics is as we feared. Mediocre at best.

[Joe Dohn]

There are $1.5k pro products and there are $5k pro products. In almost any industry there are entry level pro products and top of the line pro products. If we take pro as in used by professionals, because not all people have the same requirements.

So, the marketing of this product as being targeted for pros is vague at best. Because like you said, what kind of pro is it designed to? I just can't see it.

• Pro gamers will be better served by AMD processor + 3D card.
  
  
• Pro image editors might be served by it, but... most video-intensive applications are accelerated by the 3D card, and if you're willing to pay for it, the PC world has computers with better GPU acceleration options.
  
  
• Pro sound editors will definitely be better served by a Windows machine, which is faster and has better compatibility with most sound equipment.

At this rate, the only area in which I see Macs as superior is color correction, but... you could also get a color calibrator (e.g, SpyderX, Xrite), which will be reusable, and go with a Windows machine too.

That's very different with Apple mobile devices. Notice how they have much better selling propositions? No one can quite match the iPhone's video quality, stabilization and edition, and nothing beats the iPad in performance. But with Apple desktops? I just don't see a good selling point at this time.

If Apple had not dumped eGPU support, those entry-level machines could perhaps be considered a more serious choice. But I think they killed it because, for them, it blurs the line between higher and lower-spec machines. Why bother buying a computer with a more advanced GPU when you could get a Mac Mini, upgrade it, and get more bang for your buck?

Also, guys, I don't hate Apple. Quite the opposite. And it's because I like them that I'm criticizing them. When you only give people praise, they can't learn from their mistakes. Apple not learning from their mistakes here could eventually be very bad for them.

 

[Henk van Ess]

Live cinebench out

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1328448391706099712

 

[Jimmy James]

It’s an entry level mobile chipset.
Replacing the lowest end integrated graphics available on Mac.

Why are people comparing to a different class? And coming up disappointed?

I’ve never seen a single generation improvement like this before. It’s incredible.

 

[Henk van Ess]

I’ve never seen a single generation improvement like this before. It’s incredible.

Couldn’t agree more

 

[Sorig]

It looks like the M1 can just about "Shred" an entry-level Nvidia graphics card from....4 years ago!
If it was beating an Nvidia 2060 (a.k.a last years entry-level GPU) that would be a different story. But it can just outdo a budget card from almost half a decade ago. So get ready for another generation of integrated graphical mediocrity.

Show me an iGPU, Intel or AMD, that is anywhere close to an RTX 2060.

 

[Henk van Ess]

 

[Juraj22]

So, the marketing of this product as being targeted for pros is vague at best. Because like you said, what kind of pro is it designed to? I just can't see it.

• Pro gamers will be better served by AMD processor + 3D card.
  
  
• Pro image editors might be served by it, but... most video-intensive applications are accelerated by the 3D card, and if you're willing to pay for it, the PC world has computers with better GPU acceleration options.
  
  
• Pro sound editors will definitely be better served by a Windows machine, which is faster and has better compatibility with most sound equipment.

At this rate, the only area in which I see Macs as superior is color correction, but... you could also get a color calibrator (e.g, SpyderX, Xrite), which will be reusable, and go with a Windows machine too.

That's very different with Apple mobile devices. Notice how they have much better selling propositions? No one can quite match the iPhone's video quality, stabilization and edition, and nothing beats the iPad in performance. But with Apple desktops? I just don't see a good selling point at this time.

If Apple had not dumped eGPU support, those entry-level machines could perhaps be considered a more serious choice. But I think they killed it because, for them, it blurs the line between higher and lower-spec machines. Why bother buying a computer with a more advanced GPU when you could get a Mac Mini, upgrade it, and get more bang for your buck?

Also, guys, I don't hate Apple. Quite the opposite. And it's because I like them that I'm criticizing them. When you only give people praise, they can't learn from their mistakes. Apple not learning from their mistakes here could eventually be very bad for them.

My MacBook Pro 2018 6 core Intel i7, 32GB RAM is slower. And gets noisy when under load. And is really hot under load. (that is not negative, winter is coming) And battery life as xcode developer is about 5hours. Only thing on new Air I miss is 16' display. And perhaps reason to buy it considering my current mac. Well, I guess I wait a bit for new 16'
For desktops you need to wait a bit. eGPU does not make much sense. Too much latency and many graphics algorithms need to fetch data back. That operation is slow over TB3.

Well, and gamers will not buy macbook, why would you? There are no games for mac. They buy windows PC. No warzone on mac. no PUBG. But that is going to change soon. Argument that there is no market is going away. mac on arm and iOS on same arm is actually big market. A14 is powerful. M1 is based on A14. Only reason they don't call it A14X and A14Z is that it does have more IO. And name is already taken for CPU in iPad Pro.

Pro image editors are already happy with macbook 16', they wait for new 16'.
Pro sound editors, well, not sure, but I have a feeling that even today intel CPU are fast enough. But that excessive heat and noise is really annoying. Sound editors wants silence and you can not get that with intel in laptop anyway. There is no pasive cooled Intel laptop that can call itself pro. not even close.

And last category I care about most: developers. swift, c++,c ,metal. New 13' pro is better than latest top of the line MacBook 16'. Only drawback is screen size. Some that needs WM will complain about memory.

I had an xbox, xbox 360, it was good, but died on overheating. xbox one was even better (2013), and it does have nice games. And guess what, just 1.3TF of graphics performance. It would be great to have games that are running on xbox one on macbook air. Those where great games. All of those can run on M1.

M1 is more like CPU in consoles than in PCs or Intel macs. Apple made excellent console like CPU/GPU. But there is more. much more. Exciting times.

 

[trevpimp]

We know what's going to happen down the road after Apple first releases a product

In the next few updates Apple will come out of the closet with something so advantaged from competition we will all agree to disagree

 

[diamond.g]

Show me an iGPU, Intel or AMD, that is anywhere close to an RTX 2060.

Xbox Series X for sure. Maybe PS5.

 

[LonestarOne]

• Pro gamers will be better served by AMD processor + 3D card.
  
  
• Pro image editors might be served by it, but... most video-intensive applications are accelerated by the 3D card, and if you're willing to pay for it, the PC world has computers with better GPU acceleration options.
  
  
• Pro sound editors will definitely be better served by a Windows machine, which is faster and has better compatibility with most sound equipment.

“Pro” gamers???

Yeah, I know there are now video game tournaments with large cash prizes, but people who earn their living that way are still unicorns.

And there are millions of professionals who don’t even makeon your list.

Frankly, the fact that people are debating whether or not a machine is “professional” based on video-game scores is a bit surreal.

 

[Chompineer]

It’s an entry level mobile chipset.
Replacing the lowest end integrated graphics available on Mac.

Why are people comparing to a different class? And coming up disappointed?

I’ve never seen a single generation improvement like this before. It’s incredible.

Actually the machines it replace have the highest end integrated graphics options.

The Air had the G3/G7 and the base 13 had Iris Plus 645 with 128mb EDRAM.

Lowest end would be the 16”, as it’s on the ancient UHD 630, since Intel doesn’t upgrade iGPU’s on 45w chips (which makes sense as they are always paired with a dGPU and the iGPU is simply for general OS use).

 

[Joe Dohn]

“Pro” gamers???

Yeah, I know there are now video game tournaments with large cash prizes, but people who earn their living that way are still unicorns.

And there are millions of professionals who don’t even makeon your list.

Frankly, the fact that people are debating whether or not a machine is “professional” based on video-game scores is a bit surreal.

That's not a valid argument. You can also count on your fingers the actual number of pros that need Photoshop with high end processors and RAM. They're just as "unicorns" as professional gamers.

Of course, all that disregards that pro gamers are not just the competitive gaming industry (e-sports), but also streamers and game reviewers. They too need a reliable gaming PC with a high-end video card.

 

[Sorig]

Xbox Series X for sure. Maybe PS5.

Fair enough. Though I believe those consols are above the RTX 2060’s performance.

 

[Joe Dohn]

Pro sound editors, well, not sure, but I have a feeling that even today intel CPU are fast enough. But that excessive heat and noise is really annoying. Sound editors wants silence and you can not get that with intel in laptop anyway. There is no pasive cooled Intel laptop that can call itself pro. not even close.

This will be completely irrelevant to a high-end sound pro because they have been using sound booths for years. The noise won't get in the recordings. If you're talking about creative sound work (e.g, light mixing, song composing), then even an iPad will do. But then, cost-wise, you also have excellent options on the Windows world. There's nothing only an Apple device can offer here, or do much better than x86 devices.

 

[diamond.g]

Fair enough. Though I believe those consols are above the RTX 2060’s performance.

DF did a comparison of the PC vs XSX in Watchdogs Legion and determined that the 2060 is about the same level of performance with RT enabled. Without RT you are looking at 2070 (possible Super) levels of performance.

 

[Jimmy James]

Actually the machines it replace have the highest end integrated graphics options.

The Air had the G3/G7 and the base 13 had Iris Plus 645 with 128mb EDRAM.

Lowest end would be the 16”, as it’s on the ancient UHD 630, since Intel doesn’t upgrade iGPU’s on 45w chips (which makes sense as they are always paired with a dGPU and the iGPU is simply for general OS use).

I didn’t know that. Still, early indications are that M1 is better than either.

 

[vocalnick]

This will be completely irrelevant to a high-end sound pro because they have been using sound booths for years. The noise won't get in the recordings. If you're talking about creative sound work (e.g, light mixing, song composing), then even an iPad will do. But then, cost-wise, you also have excellent options on the Windows world. There's nothing only an Apple device can offer here, or do much better than x86 devices.

We could quibble on definitions of "high-end pro", but I've made a good portion of my living for the last several years composing, sound designing and mixing animated TV series in my home/project studio using my MacBook Pro.

I've possibly been a bit of an outlier with this until recently, but with COVID raging I suspect there are more and more sound professionals in the screen industry doing at least portions of their work at home on laptops.

The noise generated by the computer is extremely relevant to me, to the extent that I currently hobble my 16" MBP using Turbo Boost Switcher so I can keep it quiet. In fact it's one of the main reasons I'm intrigued by the Apple Silicon devices...

 

[throAU]

It looks like the M1 can just about "Shred" an entry-level Nvidia graphics card from....4 years ago!
If it was beating an Nvidia 2060 (a.k.a last years entry-level GPU) that would be a different story. But it can just outdo a budget card from almost half a decade ago. So get ready for another generation of integrated graphical mediocrity.

Apple's M1 SoC Shreds GeForce GTX 1050 Ti in New Graphics Benchmark

Flexing that Apple power

www.tomshardware.com

You're talking an integrated GPU that has a power budget of 10-15 watts for both CPU and GPU combined, vs. a card that runs up to 75 watts in an PCIe slot.

This should not be a surprise. You simply can't expect performance to be comparable; Apple's CPU/GPU team are wizards but there are laws of physics.

You should be comparing vs. Vega 8, or intel HD graphics, on intels/AMDs parts in the sub-15 watt space.


Apple's competition to things like discrete GPUs will come later. This is not it.

 

[Joe Dohn]

The noise generated by the computer is extremely relevant to me, to the extent that I currently hobble my 16" MBP using Turbo Boost Switcher so I can keep it quiet. In fact it's one of the main reasons I'm intrigued by the Apple Silicon devices...

You could also use a x86 device with passive cooling (e.g, with a copper heatsink). It'll be just as silent. This is not something exclusive to the Macbook Pro.

In fact, if you want an ad hoc sound device, even another ARM device will probably do. It doesn't have to be x86 (but x86 would be the most flexible).

 

[sultanq]

You could also use a x86 device with passive cooling (e.g, with a copper heatsink). It'll be just as silent. This is not something exclusive to the Macbook Pro.

In fact, if you want an ad hoc sound device, even another ARM device will probably do. It doesn't have to be x86 (but x86 would be the most flexible).

You can have a passively cooled x86 device, but it'll either be slow and heavily throttled (like the 2015-2017 12" MacBooks were) or it'll need to be huge to accomodate a massive heatsink. Nothing in the x86 world comes even close to what the M1 can achieve in the 10W TDP of the MacBook Air.

 

[vocalnick]

You could also use a x86 device with passive cooling (e.g, with a copper heatsink). It'll be just as silent. This is not something exclusive to the Macbook Pro.

In fact, if you want an ad hoc sound device, even another ARM device will probably do. It doesn't have to be x86 (but x86 would be the most flexible).

I guess I could...

Ooooooor I could continue using the Mac because Logic is an important part of my established workflow, and there's no other platform that will run it.

Why are you so keen to argue for people to use other platforms? I'm not sure what your point is...

 

[LonestarOne]

That's not a valid argument. You can also count on your fingers the actual number of pros that need Photoshop with high end processors and RAM. They're just as "unicorns" as professional gamers.

You actually believe that?

Ho-kay.

I guess doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, etc. are not professionals in your world, either?

Of course, all that disregards that pro gamers are not just the competitive gaming industry (e-sports), but also streamers and game reviewers. They too need a reliable gaming PC with a high-end video card.

”Game reviewers.”

You have the most narrow, most bizarre definition of “professional” I’ve ever seen.

 

[ght56]

This is a silly title and it is the outcome of ridiculous expectations.

Some folks were talking on another forum about how the iGPU on the Apple Silicon Macs would outperform the flagship GPU in the 16-inch MacBook Pro. Give me a break! It is an iGPU on a first generation device. If it matches or outperforms Intel's competing iGPU, that in and of itself is impressive as hell because these systems are not only first generation devices but they also make major efficiency gains. If it outperforms Intel's competing iGPU by a significant level, even better.

It's an iGPU on a low power device...not an RTX 3090.

 

[Jimgpayne]

It looks like the M1 can just about "Shred" an entry-level Nvidia graphics card from....4 years ago!
If it was beating an Nvidia 2060 (a.k.a last years entry-level GPU) that would be a different story. But it can just outdo a budget card from almost half a decade ago. So get ready for another generation of integrated graphical mediocrity.

Apple's M1 SoC Shreds GeForce GTX 1050 Ti in New Graphics Benchmark

Flexing that Apple power

www.tomshardware.com

Actually, the fact that we can expect performance of a 1050 is much better than I expected.

Remember, the M1 is literally a new design. Think back to the A5 from Apple years ago. Let's face it; the real, stable, optimized M(X) SoC will be released after all the Macs have been migrated and the Intel chips are no longer used at all by Apple.

Once that happens, then the GPU will continue to get better and better. Will it ever meet or exceed the "current" NVIDIA/AMD dedicated graphics cards? I doubt it; but the fact is we don't need to.

For now, the M1 is literally the weakest M-series chip that will ever be made. It only gets better from here.

So this entire argument/comparison is premature at best.

 

[theSeb]

So, the marketing of this product as being targeted for pros is vague at best. Because like you said, what kind of pro is it designed to? I just can't see it.

• Pro gamers will be better served by AMD processor + 3D card.
  
  
• Pro image editors might be served by it, but... most video-intensive applications are accelerated by the 3D card, and if you're willing to pay for it, the PC world has computers with better GPU acceleration options.
  
  
• Pro sound editors will definitely be better served by a Windows machine, which is faster and has better compatibility with most sound equipment.

At this rate, the only area in which I see Macs as superior is color correction, but... you could also get a color calibrator (e.g, SpyderX, Xrite), which will be reusable, and go with a Windows machine too.

That's very different with Apple mobile devices. Notice how they have much better selling propositions? No one can quite match the iPhone's video quality, stabilization and edition, and nothing beats the iPad in performance. But with Apple desktops? I just don't see a good selling point at this time.

If Apple had not dumped eGPU support, those entry-level machines could perhaps be considered a more serious choice. But I think they killed it because, for them, it blurs the line between higher and lower-spec machines. Why bother buying a computer with a more advanced GPU when you could get a Mac Mini, upgrade it, and get more bang for your buck?

Also, guys, I don't hate Apple. Quite the opposite. And it's because I like them that I'm criticizing them. When you only give people praise, they can't learn from their mistakes. Apple not learning from their mistakes here could eventually be very bad for them.

Pro lawyers
Pro accountants
Pro journalists
Pro sales people
Pro managers
+ large majority of "professionals" who do not edit images or music or videos or play games or require a lot of CPU and GPU power. You know... like the majority of the world's workforce.

This whole Macbook "PRO" argument is so stupid and stale.