M1/M2/M3 Macs user memory upgrades by soldering - blocked by Apple?

[theorist9]

Normally people with high memory needs probably wouldn't cheap out with their initial purchase

Why wouldn't someone who wants to cheap-out on the initial purchase to avoid a high SSD upgrade cost not also want to do so to avoid a high RAM upgrade cost? I don't see any necessary difference between the finances of those who need a lot of storage vs. those who need a lot of RAM.

Apple's BTO [RAM] asking price is not as ridiculous as their SSD offerings comparatively speaking.

I'm curious what the difference in the markup is. On the M3, Apple charges $1,200 to upgrade from 36 GB to 128 GB LPDDR5-6400 RAM (=> $13/GB), and $2,400 to upgrade to from 0.5 TB to 8 TB storage (=> $0.32/GB).

By comparison, what would be the OEM prices for those, in the quantities Apple orders? [Though I suppose to answer that reasonably accurately for the storage, you'd need an idea of what proportion of Apple's NAND is SLC vs MLC vs TLC vs QLC; or barring that, you could estimate what the OEM price/GB would be for a top-end PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSD (e.g., Samsung 990 Pro).]

 

[Pressure]

I don't think I have seen anyone successfully upgrading RAM on any Apple Silicon Macs, at least not in a video or something that's verifiable. In the 2012-2020 era of Intel Macs this had been done many times, but it got increasingly non-trivial since the T2 chip presence. With Apple Silicon it seems they doubled down on serializing DRAM parts.

But frankly there is even less of an incentive for RAM upgrades, the difficulty just adds to it. Normally people with high memory needs probably wouldn't cheap out with their initial purchase, and then Apple's BTO asking price is not as ridiculous as their SSD offerings comparatively speaking. Also unlike NANDs, the DRAMs don't wear out its lifespan as much.

It's also possible to solder on new RAM (at least for M1).

 

[Chancha]

It's also possible to solder on new RAM (at least for M1).

What is shown is only soldering the chips off. There is no proof like a video showing the process, especially booting the OS up. I don't doubt it is in some way possible, but that specific "news article" just doesn't show that.

Matter of fact, since I can read Chinese; the linked blog post only proceeded to upgrade the SSD from 256GB to 1TB. The DRAMs are never mentioned again in the blog post after the photos showing the de-soldering. The specific wording along with the DRAM photo says "this might mean in near future, 3rd party RAM upgrades will also be possible". This means they couldn't do it.

 

[theorist9]

The specific wording along with the DRAM photo says "this might mean in near future, 3rd party RAM upgrades will also be possible". This means they couldn't do it.

I used Google Translate on the linked blog post, and it said:

"However, Charging Head Network recently learned that a domestic team has successfully cracked the M1 chip. It is now possible to upgrade memory and hard drives through unofficial channels, and this achievement comes from Yang Changshun maintenance training engineer in Guangzhou, China."

中国工程师破解M1处理器MacBook，成功扩容16G内存、1TB硬盘 - 充电头网

苹果在2020年的秋季发布会推出了iPhone12系列新机，并且同步宣称后面会推出搭载自研芯片的Mac电脑。就在大家都以为苹果会在2021年推出新Mac的时候，20

www.chongdiantou.com

Also, here's the linked Twitter post:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378721039086067714

So while I believe you that they didn't demonstrate this with a video, the wording in both of these posts is making a much stronger claim than just "this might mean in near future, 3rd party RAM upgrades will also be possible".

 

[Chancha]

I used Google Translate on the linked blog post, and it said:

"However, Charging Head Network recently learned that a domestic team has successfully cracked the M1 chip. It is now possible to upgrade memory and hard drives through unofficial channels, and this achievement comes from Yang Changshun maintenance training engineer in Guangzhou, China."

中国工程师破解M1处理器MacBook，成功扩容16G内存、1TB硬盘 - 充电头网

苹果在2020年的秋季发布会推出了iPhone12系列新机，并且同步宣称后面会推出搭载自研芯片的Mac电脑。就在大家都以为苹果会在2021年推出新Mac的时候，20

www.chongdiantou.com

Also, here's the linked Twitter post:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378721039086067714

View attachment 2328919

So while I believe you that they didn't demonstrate this with a video, the wording in both of these posts is making a much stronger claim than just "this might mean in near future, 3rd party RAM upgrades will also be possible".

The article looks to me is unintentionally confusing / conflicting. The specific passage I was referring to is in the middle, so I paste it here, you can google translate it yourself:

但现在已经有人将M1芯片破解，意味着即使不通过苹果官方也可以升级内存了，想想官方将8GB内存升级到16GB就需要1500软妹币，心疼的摸了摸自己的钱包，现在只需要更少的钱就可以升级同样的内存配置了。

The words "意味着" can be translated as "this might mean (in the future)". Compared to what is done with the SSD upgrade this part is really vague, since the storage upgrade has a screenshot shown as proof while with RAM all we got is those DRAM chips being taken off the package substrate.

What's interesting is that the top left screencap in the linked tweet above, looks to be the engineer's message, announcing this "breakthrough" to a message group perhaps. He did say the 8GB is successfully upgraded to 16GB in his words. But there is only the SSD upgrade screenshot posted.

Again I don't doubt this can be done and has been done. But What was posted was only showing it with the SSD.

 

[Eriamjh1138@DAN]

Thinking about upgrading the official 8GB memory to 16GB, it takes 1,500 soft girl coins. I touched my wallet sadly, and now I only need less money to upgrade the same memory configuration.

I touch my wallet sadly every time I consider upgrading my mac.

 

[theorist9]

The article looks to me is unintentionally confusing / conflicting. The specific passage I was referring to is in the middle, so I paste it here, you can google translate it yourself:

但现在已经有人将M1芯片破解，意味着即使不通过苹果官方也可以升级内存了，想想官方将8GB内存升级到16GB就需要1500软妹币，心疼的摸了摸自己的钱包，现在只需要更少的钱就可以升级同样的内存配置了。

The words "意味着" can be translated as "this might mean (in the future)". Compared to what is done with the SSD upgrade this part is really vague, since the storage upgrade has a screenshot shown as proof while with RAM all we got is those DRAM chips being taken off the package substrate.

What's interesting is that the top left screencap in the linked tweet above, looks to be the engineer's message, announcing this "breakthrough" to a message group perhaps. He did say the 8GB is successfully upgraded to 16GB in his words. But there is only the SSD upgrade screenshot posted.

Again I don't doubt this can be done and has been done. But What was posted was only showing it with the SSD.

I do agree that we need to see it actually demonstrated.

 

[dosdude1]

I do agree that we need to see it actually demonstrated.

I definitely intend to try upgrading the RAM myself. Just have to find some other dead or iCloud locked board that has 16GB to steal the chips off of. As mentioned previously, those RAM chips are a custom package designed by Apple, and are not sold anywhere that I can find. So even if the upgrade does end up working, it wouldn’t be worth doing unless a source for the chips alone becomes available.

 

[theorist9]

I definitely intend to try upgrading the RAM myself.

It will be interesting to hear what you find!

As mentioned previously, those RAM chips are a custom package designed by Apple...

Isn't that true for the NAND as well? I.e., isn't any NAND that works also something that had to come from Apple's supply chain?

If so (and I'm just speculating here) the difference could be that the NAND Apple uses is manufactured in China (which might have leakier supply chains, thus making it possible to access that product in small quantities), while the DRAM Apple uses is manufactured in the US, Korea, or Japan.

 

[Eriamjh1138@DAN]

While I'm happy to push @dosdude1 to try the RAM upgrade, I found a great video about upgrading the SSDs in the last generations of Intel Macs. It confirms that SSD chips are firmware flashed, that SSD chips cannot be mixed by brand, but critically outlines the ports and upgrade paths used by those machines.

@dosdude1 has likely seen it, but if not, he can add it to his arsenal of knowledge.

 

[dosdude1]

While I'm happy to push @dosdude1 to try the RAM upgrade, I found a great video about upgrading the SSDs in the last generations of Intel Macs. It confirms that SSD chips are firmware flashed, that SSD chips cannot be mixed by brand, but critically outlines the ports and upgrade paths used by those machines.

@dosdude1 has likely seen it, but if not, he can add it to his arsenal of knowledge.

Yeah, I’ve seen this, and actually know and work with iBoff and his products somewhat often. But generally I don’t like to mess with the T2-based Intel Macs, as they are generally just bad and extremely unreliable. The Apple Silicon Macs are miles better, and as such makes it well worth putting the time and money into working on and upgrading those. As mentioned previously, I’ve done quite a few soldered storage upgrades on Apple Silicon machines thus far, and am becoming very familiar with the intricacies of performing such upgrades on each model.

 

[Chancha]

Why wouldn't someone who wants to cheap-out on the initial purchase to avoid a high SSD upgrade cost not also want to do so to avoid a high RAM upgrade cost? I don't see any necessary difference between the finances of those who need a lot of storage vs. those who need a lot of RAM.

I'm curious what the difference in the markup is. On the M3, Apple charges $1,200 to upgrade from 36 GB to 128 GB LPDDR5-6400 RAM (=> $13/GB), and $2,400 to upgrade to from 0.5 TB to 8 TB storage (=> $0.32/GB).

By comparison, what would be the OEM prices for those, in the quantities Apple orders? [Though I suppose to answer that reasonably accurately for the storage, you'd need an idea of what proportion of Apple's NAND is SLC vs MLC vs TLC vs QLC; or barring that, you could estimate what the OEM price/GB would be for a top-end PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSD (e.g., Samsung 990 Pro).]

I don't speak for everyone but since I make purchase decisions for my studio at work so here's my thought process:

This is not just an upfront cost comparison.

RAM is integral to system performance, and with how integrated this is with Apple Silicon, you are supposed to be specing this along with the SoC CPU / GPU power etc so this should be a single decision. There is no alternative or aftermarket possibility so this cost is factored into the machine cost. If one were to "cheap-out" on a initial purchase with the knowledge of RAM upgrade being impossible later, he simply made a bad purchase choice.

Storage is still possible externally even without modifications like this thread's discussion of re-soldering. Be it with USB/Thunderbolt, or even PCIe on the Mac Pro, and then all the network solutions, there are actual alternatives for any given capacity / speed, so the value of Apple's BTO is subjected to be compared to those other alternatives. Obviously if prerequisite is the storage must be internal, especially for a laptop, then we talk BTO vs solder mods. The 8TB BTO asking price is seriously ridiculous even in Apple standard. In fact I have never signed off any Mac purchase with higher than 2TB BTO here. We buy a lot of NVMe SSDs and stuff them into TB3/4 enclosures instead.

 

[theorist9]

I don't speak for everyone but since I make purchase decisions for my studio at work so here's my thought process:

This is not just an upfront cost comparison.

RAM is integral to system performance, and with how integrated this is with Apple Silicon, you are supposed to be specing this along with the SoC CPU / GPU power etc so this should be a single decision. There is no alternative or aftermarket possibility so this cost is factored into the machine cost. If one were to "cheap-out" on a initial purchase with the knowledge of RAM upgrade being impossible later, he simply made a bad purchase choice.

Sorry, I think there's been a misunderstanding here. I think we're taking about two different things. What you describe above is not what I'm referring to. I'm instead referring to this post you wrote previously, which I've copied below, in which you spoke about someone buying a machine with the intention they were going to upgrade it from the start, even before they put it into use ("the customer already had using this service in mind when choosing the config at Apple").

So I was simply trying to say that, if an inexpensive RAM upgrade were also available (which I acknowledge it's not, at least not yet), I see no reason such a customer wouldn't buy a low-RAM/low-SSD machine, and have both upgraded, rather than buying a high-RAM/low-SSD machine and upgrading the SSD only.

I.e., I was arguing the reason a customer wouldn't do that would be technological (the RAM upgrade isn't available), rather than financial (such that if it were available, they would do it).

Such a customer would indeed be speccing their RAM needs right from the start, just as you describe. The only difference is that they'd be getting high RAM from the start with an RAM upgrade, rather than directly from Apple:

...the guy said a customer sent him a BTO of 128GB RAM but with just 512GB SSD, so the customer already had using this service in mind when choosing the config at Apple.

 

[Chancha]

Sorry, I think there's been a misunderstanding here. I think we're taking about two different things. What you describe above is not what I'm referring to. I'm instead referring to this post you wrote previously, which I've copied below, in which you spoke about someone buying a machine with the intention they were going to upgrade it from the start, even before they put it into use ("the customer already had using this service in mind when choosing the config at Apple").

So I was simply trying to say that, if an inexpensive RAM upgrade were also available (which I acknowledge it's not, at least not yet), I see no reason such a customer wouldn't buy a low-RAM/low-SSD machine, and have both upgraded, rather than buying a high-RAM/low-SSD machine and upgrading the SSD only.

I.e., I was arguing the reason a customer wouldn't do that would be technological (the RAM upgrade isn't available), rather than financial (such that if it were available, they would do it).

Such a customer would indeed be speccing their RAM needs right from the start, just as you describe. The only difference is that they'd be getting high RAM from the start with an RAM upgrade, rather than directly from Apple:

I agree with you that what I described was not 100% in line with the logical situations here, because there are a few other factors in play that just are too long to be listed. The above video gave a good example, what actually did happen was someone bringing in a 128GB RAM + 512GB SSD combo to be modified;

One catch here is that, with M3 Max you are forced to start with 36GB anyway so at least one BTO step up is absorbed already, from the base 18GB. But the above machine manages to stay at base 512GB because Apple "allows" us to do so. Granted this is "just $400" so we can perhaps write that off. And also if the M3 Max is the full chip not the binned core version you are forced to 48GB to start, thats another $200 at base.

"If an inexpensive RAM upgrade were also available" then let's say we use 48GB as base line, going to 128GB is indeed very hefty but we had to take off $600 from the above math. That's $1000 for 48GB to 128GB, vs the $1600 for 18GB to 128GB (discounting SoC upgrades). In comparison the $2400 for 512GB to 8TB is much larger distance.

What will be interesting is if RAM upgrades were possible, perhaps we could have shuffled more RAM combos vs SoC configs by using different density DRAM modules, then it may change the value propositions a bit.

 

[theorist9]

I agree with you that what I described was not 100% in line with the logical situations here, because there are a few other factors in play that just are too long to be listed. The above video gave a good example, what actually did happen was someone bringing in a 128GB RAM + 512GB SSD combo to be modified;

One catch here is that, with M3 Max you are forced to start with 36GB anyway so at least one BTO step up is absorbed already, from the base 18GB. But the above machine manages to stay at base 512GB because Apple "allows" us to do so. Granted this is "just $400" so we can perhaps write that off. And also if the M3 Max is the full chip not the binned core version you are forced to 48GB to start, thats another $200 at base.

"If an inexpensive RAM upgrade were also available" then let's say we use 48GB as base line, going to 128GB is indeed very hefty but we had to take off $600 from the above math. That's $1000 for 48GB to 128GB, vs the $1600 for 18GB to 128GB (discounting SoC upgrades). In comparison the $2400 for 512GB to 8TB is much larger distance.

What will be interesting is if RAM upgrades were possible, perhaps we could have shuffled more RAM combos vs SoC configs by using different density DRAM modules, then it may change the value propositions a bit.

Good points, but note that people (at least according to the videos) are doing this even for 2 TB upgrades, which would be only +$600 (vs. 512 GB) if purchased from Apple. So, again, I don't see upgrading RAM as qualitatively different (financially) from what people are now doing to upgrade storage.

Technologically, of course, it may be another story.

 

[Chancha]

Good points, but note that people (at least according to the videos) are doing this even for 2 TB upgrades, which would be only +$600 (vs. 512 GB) if purchased from Apple. So, again, I don't see upgrading RAM as qualitatively different (financially) from what people are now doing to upgrade storage.

Technologically, of course, it may be another story.

Well yes, when technical reality is considered I'd guess even the charging amount of the service is adjusted as well, the above we were only talking in theory if all things were equal. The 2TB "limit" of the Mac Studio single daughter card in the above video was an example of such technical "limit", if the 2nd card is indeed difficult to source then by extension it must cost more, further closing in to Apple's BTO price.

Therefore the technical difficulty of RAM upgrade should not be dismissed if it in turn affects what it will cost for the customer.

 

[dadadadaelel]

would 4TB SSD also make sense if 128 GB RAM ? Or is it necessary to make max... if we talk about AI tasks, model training, also video editing .. rendering etc.. i talk about investing in M3 MAX PRO

 

[Keno73]

Does anyone know or have tested if its possible to upgrade the nand of the M1 Macbook Pro 13, with 2 different 1tb nands? I have one kicm223 and one tsb and dont want to buy another kicm when I still have that tsb 1tb nand around. Is that possible or do I have to buy another Kicm?

 

[dosdude1]

Does anyone know or have tested if its possible to upgrade the nand of the M1 Macbook Pro 13, with 2 different 1tb nands? I have one kicm223 and one tsb and dont want to buy another kicm when I still have that tsb 1tb nand around. Is that possible or do I have to buy another Kicm?

TSB NANDs are all S4E, and are not compatible with M1 to begin with. But yes, both NANDs must match in the case of a 2TB config.

 

[Keno73]

TSB NANDs are all S4E, and are not compatible with M1 to begin with. But yes, both NANDs must match in the case of a 2TB config.

Thank you very much! You saved me a lot of time. I knew that kicm223 does match with the m1, but didnt knew that the tsb doesnt. Thanks!

 

[sunny5]

This is a huge issue for Mac users and Apple's decision is pathetic. The reason why they want to solder all parts on the motherboard is because they wanna charge more. Adding 8GB will cost $200 which is a joke and this is why Apple deny the right to repair.

This is something that people need to keep blaming Apple for making this way. They literally are monopoly as they dont really compete with others due to closed ecosystem.

 

[Faize]

This is a huge issue for Mac users and Apple's decision is pathetic. The reason why they want to solder all parts on the motherboard is because they wanna charge more. Adding 8GB will cost $200 which is a joke and this is why Apple deny the right to repair.

This is something that people need to keep blaming Apple for making this way. They literally are monopoly as they dont really compete with others due to closed ecosystem.

Sadly, the vast majority of laptop users - Mac or PC - don't care about anything other than thinness. People who know how to add an SODIMM or swap a M.2 SSD are a tiny minority. And as you pointed out, this works out great for the manufacturers since they can overcharge on upgrades to increase their margin$.

I'd love to see socketed laptop CPUs and MXM GPUs make a comeback, but given how much Framework is struggling to become relevant, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[magbarn]

Sadly, the vast majority of laptop users - Mac or PC - don't care about anything other than thinness. People who know how to add an SODIMM or swap a M.2 SSD are a tiny minority. And as you pointed out, this works out great for the manufacturers since they can overcharge on upgrades to increase their margin$.

I'd love to see socketed laptop CPUs and MXM GPUs make a comeback, but given how much Framework is struggling to become relevant, I'm not holding my breath.

This would cut down ewaste. Mother Nature would approve.

 

[sunny5]

This would cut down ewaste. Mother Nature would approve.

Despite what Apple is advertising, their non-upgradable design is literally create more e-waste as they need to replace the entire motherboard in order to repair a single memory chip.

 

[RobertLindenau]

Hi community, I wanted to step in here to share my „wisdom“…
I own this linked youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@lindenaurepair

and worked on every M1 (non Pro/Ultra) Mac.
I worked together with EzFix right from the beginning and discovered that new chips can be used instead of used/ preprogrammed. the chips for purchase are from my chinese friend/seller and you have to make sure you ask her for blank chips which can only be verified using JC P13.
EzFix earns his Money from our findings, please appreciate what he already offered🥰

PS: RAM is not possible as Collin already said👍