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trimblet

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2017
14
39
I'm usually not a naysayer, but Apple did go very hard against Intel for not producing the improvements they wanted and it does seem like Apple isn't providing much better, though bringing it first party has other advantages surely, and third party benchmarks are probably not very high on the list of priorities for the chip team. That said, a 22.83% improvement YOY for single core performance is not in line with Moore's Law, which is ~41%. The fact that they haven't even doubled performance yet on the M line at all is pretty disappointing.

On GeekBench 6, the oldest A series scores are for A8; between the A8 and the A10, the single core performance increased 76% (~430 -> ~760). A11 is 1100, significantly above double.
 

jujoje

macrumors regular
May 17, 2009
247
288
Blender for iPad!!

Beyond just pure numbers what good are these speeds for iPads?
I have iPad Air 5 with M1 and I have never experience any delay, stutter or slowdown.

I also have a MacBook Pro m1 and everything except the most extreme rendering tasks are super fast. But I can see the use case for some to upgrade M1 MacBooks but absolutely no use for iPads to upgrade from M1

Wouldn't say no to blender on iPad :D

There's already a pretty decent stable of 3D apps for the iPad, which would make use of this power:

- Nomad Sculpt
- Valence 3D
- Procrease
- ZBrush (soon)
- Octane
- Shapr

All of which would most likely benefit from the CPU and GPU improvements.

Along with Da Vinci, Final Cut and Logic, there's a pretty good suit of professional level apps that will benefit from the extra power. That said for regular tasks (internet, email office related tasks) both the MacBook Air and iPad have been overpowered for quite some time. Outside of 3D, my 8GB MBA pretty much works flawlessly for the day-to-day.
 

alchemistmuffin

macrumors 6502a
Dec 28, 2007
776
822
If that's all verified, and that's what the M4 can achieve IN A 5mm TABLET, then one suspects it could do even better in a laptop!
If Geekbench score is correct, should I wait to replace my mid 2018 MacBook Pro with M4 Pro ones when it comes out in fall? I JUST watched the Scary Fast Apple Event video a day before iPad event (World Series was on that day, so couldn't watch it live, kept it on backburner, and totally forgot about it till few days ago, I managed to avoid anything MacBook related news until now) and I was so tempted to upgrade. But with M4 now being announced, I'm wondering if it's just worth to wait now.....

(and for the record, Apple announcing M4 was shocking and extremely risky move, considering Back To School promo launches soon, students might hold off on buying the Mac until M4 ones are announced. After reading Gurman's newsletter, I thought he meant M3 Pro would be on iPad Pro, which was what industry was predicting)

On iPad related note, should I get the M4 iPad Pro or M2 iPad Air to replace my 2020 iPad Pro (with A12Z, aka M0 chip). I'm used to using Pro Motion and Face ID, but with lack of 2nd camera, and having to buy a new Magic Keyboard, is it just better to get the iPad Air? How much speed boost will I get on both compared to A12Z?)
 
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JamieLannister

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2016
634
1,570
Don’t get caught up with just the benchmark numbers. Try editing photos a bunch of them them at once on an iPad. You realize that it’s a total waste of time. Every time I wanna do something such as editing photos, creating documents. I just go straight to my MacBook so what if this new iPad is blazing? It’s always hampered by the stupid iPadOS.
 

Darren.h

macrumors 6502a
Apr 15, 2023
508
855
why cant Apple make a 24 core perf chip like the i9 24 core Raptor Lake?

More cores is where all the performance is. At least for the Mac Studio and Mac Pro.
 

Squirrrrel

Suspended
Apr 24, 2024
158
302
why cant Apple make a 24 core perf chip like the i9 24 core Raptor Lake?

More cores is where all the performance is. At least for the Mac Studio and Mac Pro.
The i9 you're referring to has 8 performance cores and 16 efficiency cores. The M2 Ultra has a 24 core CPU (but is reversed with 16 performance cores and 8 efficiency cores) and a 60 core GPU. The M2 Ultra has double the performance cores as the i9. I'm assuming they're ditching the M3 Ultra entirely and will jump straight to the M4 Ultra, which should be bananas.
 

johannnn

macrumors 68020
Nov 20, 2009
2,315
2,602
Sweden
I mean I'm perfectly happy with the performance of the M3, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people will now wait for the M4 Macbooks knowing the CPU is already outdated...
Are people seriously waiting one year (Gurman predicts new Air in spring 2025) for a ~20% boost? That makes no sense at all. I'm buying an M3 Air this weekend I think, not gonna wait a year.
 

Confused-User

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2014
852
984
There's a lot of latecomers here seriously out of touch with reality.

Honestly, there was a time yoy jump used to be 100-200%

Since M1 we haven’t yet had even 100% bump total so far

20% yoy on jump is the least you can even think of

M1 and up Its all very good and similar
YoY 100-200%?!? I'm so sorry that you fell out of your awesome universe and ended up in our pedestrian one.

Here in this universe, that's a ridiculous assertion. Aside from M1, it has never happened, AFAIK. Apple's made real gains in every generation, even though M2 was hammered by the delay in N3B and the M3 was now, as we're discovering, an interim effort.

BTW Intel is calling, they'd really like that 20% YoY you're talking about.

finally catches up to 14700k at single core. still a ways to go for multi core

meanwhile I just ran metal benchmark on my hackintosh where 6800 gets 209,762.

so nearly 4x as fast as the fastest apple has still?
If by "catches up" you mean "beats the pants off", sure. I mean, on GB's site, the M3 is a bit ahead of the 14900. We're seeing around 3800 for the M4 and will probably exceed 4000 in the M4 Studio (and possibly 16" MBP Max). Think Intel's going to cross that line in the next two generations? Seems exceedingly unlikely.

As for MC, the M3 Max is ~4-5% lower than the 13900 (which scores better than the 14900?), which has a lot more cores. Expect the M4 Max to crush that too. Now, if you want to make an argument that the Intel high-end chip is a lot more accessible ($$$) than the Max, there you'd have a good point.

GPU... I got nothing, it's a crappy situation for the people who really need that much power. (Edit: Though you may well lose to the M4 Max when it ships. And different workloads will measure up differently.)

I'm usually not a naysayer, but Apple did go very hard against Intel for not producing the improvements they wanted and it does seem like Apple isn't providing much better, though bringing it first party has other advantages surely, and third party benchmarks are probably not very high on the list of priorities for the chip team. That said, a 22.83% improvement YOY for single core performance is not in line with Moore's Law, which is ~41%. The fact that they haven't even doubled performance yet on the M line at all is pretty disappointing.

On GeekBench 6, the oldest A series scores are for A8; between the A8 and the A10, the single core performance increased 76% (~430 -> ~760). A11 is 1100, significantly above double.
See above. Your expectations are wildly unrealistic. And Apple's providing MUCH better than Intel. If you just look at benchmark scores you're forgetting half the equation - power. Apple's perf/power if wildly better than Intel's, and Intel is not catching up. (It's better than AMD's too.)

Also... Moore's law? LOL. Where have you been for the last ten years? Nobody's getting anything like that speedup any more.

Apple's march to dominance with the A series chips was historic and industry-shaking, but eventually they started running into the same limits that everyone else did. They've done better than everyone else, but they're subject to the same physics.
 
Last edited:

Basic75

macrumors 68020
May 17, 2011
2,101
2,447
Europe
YoY 100-200%?!? I'm so sorry that you fell out of your awesome universe and ended up in our pedestrian one.

Here in this universe, that's a ridiculous assertion. Aside from M1, it has never happened, AFAIK.
It's not quite as ridiculous as aakshey makes it sound. Things moved faster around the 1990s. It was great when you got a year-over-year doubling of single-threaded performance. But even then we knew that party couldn't go on forever.
 

kendo88

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2010
253
122
Coventry
Don’t get caught up with just the benchmark numbers. Try editing photos a bunch of them them at once on an iPad. You realize that it’s a total waste of time. Every time I wanna do something such as editing photos, creating documents. I just go straight to my MacBook so what if this new iPad is blazing? It’s always hampered by the stupid iPadOS.
What’s the problem for editing photos on an iPad?
 
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headlessmike

macrumors 65816
May 16, 2017
1,438
2,839
I'm usually not a naysayer, but Apple did go very hard against Intel for not producing the improvements they wanted and it does seem like Apple isn't providing much better, though bringing it first party has other advantages surely, and third party benchmarks are probably not very high on the list of priorities for the chip team. That said, a 22.83% improvement YOY for single core performance is not in line with Moore's Law, which is ~41%. The fact that they haven't even doubled performance yet on the M line at all is pretty disappointing.

On GeekBench 6, the oldest A series scores are for A8; between the A8 and the A10, the single core performance increased 76% (~430 -> ~760). A11 is 1100, significantly above double.
It’s been a long time since one could expect significant improvements YOY in CPU performance. I went from a 2013 MBP to a 2020 Intel MBP (4th gen i5 to 10th gen i5) and in those 7 years the relative improvement in single core Geekbench scores was similar to what we’ve seen in 3.5 years from the M1 to M4. In that regard Apple aren’t doing so bad.
 
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semajm85

macrumors member
Nov 30, 2012
81
88
why cant Apple make a 24 core perf chip like the i9 24 core Raptor Lake?

More cores is where all the performance is. At least for the Mac Studio and Mac Pro.
A majority of the tasks you run use single core, adding more cores doesn’t translate to “moar powaaarrr” unless the app can take advantage of it.
 
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stinksroundhere

macrumors regular
May 10, 2024
235
343
Don’t get caught up with just the benchmark numbers. Try editing photos a bunch of them them at once on an iPad. You realize that it’s a total waste of time. Every time I wanna do something such as editing photos, creating documents. I just go straight to my MacBook so what if this new iPad is blazing? It’s always hampered by the stupid iPadOS.

You are right about benchmarks being almost pointless though they do give you a good base to compare against.

iPadOS isn't the issue if you want to be productive. Thousands of creatives on IG and TikTok film themselves doing great stuff on iPads.

The issue is apps. There are apps like Clip Studio Paint and Medibang that are a 1:1 clone of the desktop apps.

Then there are apps like Photoshop that are a stripped down touch friendly app which are half baked.

Full Photoshop would probably not run well if someone opened a very large file with many layers and masks. RAM would be a limitation and Apple Silicon, as efficient as it is, really needs a fan if you open very large files or do rendering tasks.

The CPU would throttle and the display would get too warm to rest your palm on it. Some Wacom/Huion pen display tablets that don't even run an OS have a warm spot that users sometimes complain about.
 

Confused-User

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2014
852
984
It's not quite as ridiculous as aakshey makes it sound. Things moved faster around the 1990s. It was great when you got a year-over-year doubling of single-threaded performance. But even then we knew that party couldn't go on forever.
Hm. I tried to remember all the way back to 1980, and I couldn't offhand think of a year where we got over 100%. But you made me think harder.

Maybe going from 33 to 66MHz 486? (The first 66 wasn't even intel, IIRC!) But I think it was more than a year between them. And if you're willing to consider different architectures (seems fair), maybe when the Alpha first came out, but I don't think it was twice as fast as the competition. I could be forgetting though.

Come to think of it, going from the 68040 to the PPC 601 probably qualifies.

Anyway, these are rare occurrences from a long time ago. So even if I forgot a couple, clearly, my point stands.
 

headlessmike

macrumors 65816
May 16, 2017
1,438
2,839
A majority of the tasks you run use single core, adding more cores doesn’t translate to “moar powaaarrr” unless the app can take advantage of it.
Also, for the base M chips having more efficiency chips make sense for normal use. On my M1 the efficiency cores are used for the vast majority of tasks and the performance cores are idle for everything but particularly demanding tasks. The difference is noticeable with my M1 Pro MacBook that only has two efficiency cores and has to utilize the performance cores a lot more for the same tasks. Apple made the right choice adding more efficiency cores to the M2 Pro and M3 Pro chips.
 

Basic75

macrumors 68020
May 17, 2011
2,101
2,447
Europe
Hm. I tried to remember all the way back to 1980, and I couldn't offhand think of a year where we got over 100%. But you made me think harder.

Maybe going from 33 to 66MHz 486? (The first 66 wasn't even intel, IIRC!) But I think it was more than a year between them. And if you're willing to consider different architectures (seems fair), maybe when the Alpha first came out, but I don't think it was twice as fast as the competition. I could be forgetting though.

Come to think of it, going from the 68040 to the PPC 601 probably qualifies.

Anyway, these are rare occurrences from a long time ago. So even if I forgot a couple, clearly, my point stands.
And I agree with your general point. It's still fun to remember the big jumps that you could sometimes get like if you bought a Mac IIci in 1989 with a 25MHz '030 and could quadruple its performance with a Quadra in 1991 with its 25MHz '040. As for Alpha, that was a floating point monster, though I can't remember how it compared to the competition. If we are talking Unix workstations, PA-RISC wasn't half bad at that either? To come back on topic, I'm curious to see the cache configuration of the M4 and going forward how long Apple can get away with a shared L2. IBM and Intel have been using per-core L2 for over 15 years.
 

Moka Akashiya

macrumors member
Nov 19, 2020
85
219
Where can you make sure that the geekbench results regarding M3 are true and that this chip is really at the level of powerful Intel/AMD chips in real tasks, like code compilation?
 

uller6

macrumors 65816
May 14, 2010
1,072
1,777
I'm usually not a naysayer, but Apple did go very hard against Intel for not producing the improvements they wanted and it does seem like Apple isn't providing much better, though bringing it first party has other advantages surely, and third party benchmarks are probably not very high on the list of priorities for the chip team. That said, a 22.83% improvement YOY for single core performance is not in line with Moore's Law, which is ~41%. The fact that they haven't even doubled performance yet on the M line at all is pretty disappointing.

On GeekBench 6, the oldest A series scores are for A8; between the A8 and the A10, the single core performance increased 76% (~430 -> ~760). A11 is 1100, significantly above double.
Moore’s law has nothing to do with performance. It’s an economic cost generalization that projects increases in transistor density.
 

macphoto861

macrumors 6502
May 20, 2021
496
444
Don’t get caught up with just the benchmark numbers. Try editing photos a bunch of them them at once on an iPad. You realize that it’s a total waste of time. Every time I wanna do something such as editing photos, creating documents. I just go straight to my MacBook so what if this new iPad is blazing? It’s always hampered by the stupid iPadOS.
I edit thousands of photographs a month on my iPad Pro 11 (with Lightroom), and it works great. Now, to be fair, that's synced through the Adobe Creative Cloud thing, so I don't have to deal with importing images directly into the iPad, so perhaps that's what you are referring to.
 
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Poppleropples

macrumors member
Dec 29, 2009
42
122
Really exciting stuff I think if we’re looking at it from a pipeline chip perspective for the Mac’s, but Apple please, just tighten up iPadOS, please. I’m on an M2 pro, love it, mostly a desktop replacement (bar some legacy industry specific software I run a 2012 mini for), RAW images, 5K video editing, brilliant, but at least once a day I come across silly bugs with the OS, particularly with stage manager and a keyboard and the whole experience comes crumbling down. It could have an M2000000 chip in it, but if I get thrown random bugs that stop me from entering text in Mail with a keyboard, work stops… I don’t want MacOS on the iPad, just fix the persistent bugs in the current OS, be brilliant at the basics and then innovate.
 
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