This.
The M1 Mini's logic board was only 5.2 inches at its widest. With the redesign, they just put that into an enclosure that doesn't have all the empty space.
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M4 Pro Mac mini - form over function?
- Thread starter Peter_M
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The M1 Mini's logic board was only 5.2 inches at its widest. With the redesign, they just put that into an enclosure that doesn't have all the empty space.
What firewire gear do you have connected? I'm curious as Apple has long since discontinued support for audio and video over firewire. I think Catalina was the last to support audio and Monterey to support video. I still have firewire400 audio gear that works well but requires me to keep an old 2018 MBP running Catalina in order to actually use it.
I see this topic got people riled up, but I've been using Apple computers for 20+ years, and I'm a big fan overall (although Apple products are becoming prohibitively expensive here).
I've been waiting to update to Apple silicon for a long time, and hopefully Mac Mini M4 Pro will deliver - with both performance and user experience. Fingers crossed!
I've been waiting to update to Apple silicon for a long time, and hopefully Mac Mini M4 Pro will deliver - with both performance and user experience. Fingers crossed!
But then, generic reviews are the worst. They're either "it's so pretty", "Apple's lost their mojo, they put this hole in the wrong place", or "Oh my god, guys, if you actually wanted to use this computer to do real world stuff like stream YouTube in 500 chrome tabs and do a 12k Final Cut pro export while you run the NOAA hurricane prediction models because that's what multitasking means, then it's going to totally throttle and behave like a $50 Raspberry Pi."
Not unless they've made it stand much higher off the desk than the current Mini/Studio. I certainly wouldn't be able to get my finger to a switch in that location on the current Studio design.
Obviously my hands are too big for me to be allowed to use a Mac... Ah, suddenly the design of the Magic Mouse makes sense!
As far as the Apple mouse goes, does anyone actually use that thing? 😅 I use the Magic Trackpad and a Logictech keyboard instead. Both the Apple keyboard and mouse aren't the best IMO. The Apple keyboard have slightly too shallow key travel, and the mouse isn't exactly ergonomically shaped.
As far as mouses go, get one of those super-light gaming mouses, so much more comfortable for extended sessions.
As far as mouses go, get one of those super-light gaming mouses, so much more comfortable for extended sessions.
I can say one thing - the cooling system is not successful and not thought out. There will be mixing of air streams. The aerodynamics is just screwed up.
That M4 Mac mini's rim stands much higher than on the M2 Mac mini, but I don't know how that compares to the Mac Studio. I guess we shall see.Not unless they've made it stand much higher off the desk than the current Mini/Studio. I certainly wouldn't be able to get my finger to a switch in that location on the current Studio design.
Obviously my hands are too big for me to be allowed to use a Mac... Ah, suddenly the design of the Magic Mouse makes sense!
Just wait until it releases and someone tested sustained performance and acoustics under load. The M4 Pro likely draws less than 50 watts under full (CPU + GPU) load, unless Apple upped the power significantly from the M3 Pro. It is probably possible to effectively transfer 50 watts of heat outside of a case of this form factor without a fan as loud as a jet engine. Also, for music production, how often do you hammer CPU and GPU at the same time? The M4 Pro mini supposedly has a beefier cooling solution than the base M4 model, similar to how the Ultra Mac Studio has a beefier cooling solution compared to the Max model.
If it turns out that it's a noisy little box, you can start complaining then. But for now, just wait.
Volume of 14" MacBook Pro = 1.55 cm x 31.26 cm x 22.12 cm = 1072 cm3
Volume of M4 Pro Mac mini = 5.0 cm x 12.7 cm x 12.7 cm = 806.45 cm3
Yes, the 14" MacBook Pro's volume is bigger, but it houses the M4 Max, and even though its power supply is external, it includes a screen, trackpad, keyboard, battery, and more speakers, among other things. The M3 Max MacBook Pro is not considered a loud machine.
Volume of M4 Pro Mac mini = 5.0 cm x 12.7 cm x 12.7 cm = 806.45 cm3
Yes, the 14" MacBook Pro's volume is bigger, but it houses the M4 Max, and even though its power supply is external, it includes a screen, trackpad, keyboard, battery, and more speakers, among other things. The M3 Max MacBook Pro is not considered a loud machine.
The 14" M3 Max MacBook Pro is definitely known for loud fans and throttling during prolonged demanding workloads. There's a significant rise in power consumption from M3 Pro to M3 Max though, can't remember the exact numbers..
The longer battery life in the M4 MacBook Pros is good sign at least (ie. less power hungry than M3).
And volume doesn't matter much, really. Trapped air is a lousy conductor of heat. You want heat sources connected to spreaders under active air flow to the outside to dissipate the most power.
Yes and at least according to Apple there is active air flow through the entire Mac mini. Probably better that the MacBook Pro in fact.
You can get it to ramp up the fans if you max everything out, but it’s nothing like the Intel models. No comparison at all.
They can say anything to make a sale. It's not like they can't admit they don't study aerodynamics. Show a picture to the audience of the presentation, they clap their hands. No one will study the movement of air currents and build models in programs....
I went from a 2018 i7 MBP to an M2 Pro Mini for pro audio work and I've never looked back. Latency is negligible to non-existent and certainly better than my MBP. I spec'd my M2 Pro with 32GB RAM and have never come close to using even half of it, even with huge projects and realtime effects processing. If you do decide to go for the M4 Pro or wait until M5 or M6, I'm sure you will find it a significant improvement over the 2018 i7. My only complaint about the move to Apple Silicon has been the loss of firewire audio support for legacy audio hardware - Catalina was the last OS to support it. This applies to Intel Macs as well, though, so my 2018 MBP is still running Catalina for my older hardware....
or say anything to discourage one:
No facts needed, just a bit of Ghostbusters logic.
I don’t watch reviews, most of them are clickbait stuff. If I really want to watch, I will just watch ijustine unboxing video for fun. Unfortunately, the days of detailed reviews are long gone.
I’m buying the new MinI only because of its size and cost. I don’t need a Mac desktop but I’ll make the jump here solely because of the form factor. So, for me, the form is the function.
I don’t expect everyone (or really anyone) to agree with me. But I’m happy Apple does. And there’s nothing “apologetic” about getting a product I like.
Summary:
OP is concerned that the compromises that the new Mac Mini form factor might bring may make it the wrong choice for them.
OP doesn't want to buy an old Studio or wait for a new one.
OP is troubled by increased pricing of Apple products in the EU.
OP is concerned that the compromises that the new Mac Mini form factor might bring may make it the wrong choice for them.
OP doesn't want to buy an old Studio or wait for a new one.
OP is troubled by increased pricing of Apple products in the EU.
The dongle thing is getting a bit irrelevant... esp. on a desktop where having USB-C-to-A dongles plugged in the back isn't the end of the world... and the good news is that they haven't made it quite as small as the rumours suggested (which would have made the sockets really cramped) - plus the USB-C sockets are mounted vertically with decent spacing so you can use those USB-A dongles side by side...
What is more important, I think, is how many USB devices - A or C - can you plug in before you need a hub/dock - because reducing the footprint is pointless if it means you need more external boxes. It's worth remembering that the majority of "USB-C" peripherals are still only using the 5Gbps USB 3.0 protocol so many users will still be able to make good use of USB A or USB-C/3.2 ports. Some people doing audio/music work will have a shedload of audio & MIDI devices that don't even need USB 3, but do prefer being plugged directly into a host. Also, many people will use one of the TB ports to connect a display to the Mini.
By my counting we've gained a USB port on the base model: from 2x TB + 2x USB-A/3.0 to 3x TB + 2x USB-C/3.1g2 - and the HDMI, Ethernet and audio jacks haven't been dumped, so it's looking good for the base Mini.
That's the glass half full bit. Now for the form over function compromise bits:
1. The "M4 Pro" Mini has lost a USB port c.f. the old model: 4xTB4 + 2xUSB-A => 3 x TB5 + 2xUSB-C 3.2. OK, yay, 120Gbps TB5, but only on 3 ports - so until every peripheral can make use of 120Gbps you're going to need external hubs to make use of that.
2. Both the M4 and M4 Pro "waste" one of the 4 TB4 controllers on the SoC. C.f. the M4 iMac which can have 4 full-blown TB4 ports and has an internal screen. The only difference between the iMac and the Mini I can see that might be a non-form-over-function justification that is that the Mini has the 10Gb Ethernet option whereas the iMac only has 1Gb built in... but somehow that didn't cost a TB4 port on the M2 Pro or the Studio... Now, the base-M4 mini is ahead of the game with 3 full-spec TB4 ports but it could have had 4... and the M4 Pro mini has lost a TB port c.f. the M2.
3. Modified rapture: front USB ports - good. front USB ports at the expense of rear USB ports - bad. Front ports are great for plugging in occasionally-connected devices, but having permanent storage/printers/scanners/audio IFs/etc. training wires to the front, not so good. Both the M4 and M4 have moved 1-2 rear sockets to the front c.f. the M2. Also c.f. the Studio vs Mini which added 2 front USBs and a card reader without losing rear connectivity c.f. the Mini Pro.
4. The power button. Maybe not a deal breaker but it staggers me that anybody would try to defend this stupid decision (presumably to save a few cents on each unit by not having to incorporate a proper button on the case*). I mean... "you don't need a power button, just put it in sleepm so we're leaving it off" would have been a courageous decision to discuss but accepting that some people need a power button ...and then putting it in a ridiculous position is just plain bananas.
This is compounded by the lack of a M4 Max Studio as yet. I hope they'll keep the Studio as it is, with a fuller complement of ports, lots of cooling and more repairable internal construction (all the ports etc. are on replaceable daughter boards, even the SSD is replaceable, although Apple only support like-for-like) but the M2 Studio is now two generations behind on processor tech. Presumably, the Studio will have to wait for some sort of "M4 Ultra" - but I don't see why that would preclude releasing a M4 Max version first.
(* I assume that the "button" is just pushing on a microswitch soldered to the logic board)
Guys, go read my post #40 again. "Throttling" is ill-defined and doesn't really say anything useful. Beyond that:
1) Definitely not "indefinite fully sustained workloads". Not a chance, and nobody should be expecting that.
2) The "unbinned" (really, better-binned) M4 Pro will run at somewhat lower clocks when fully utilized, as you've got two more cores capable of putting out what, 10-14W more? But that's sort of the point. NONE of the cores run at top speed in that case, and because lower clocks are more efficient, your 10 cores will still give you better performance than 8 would. (The higher-binned 10P likely also has better efficiency across its 10 cores, which is why it's higher binned, but that's likely a much smaller effect.)
Yeah, it's not clear to me that that really helped them all that much.
You can say lots of things, but so far, at least in this thread, they've all been arrant nonsense. You know nothing, nor will you at least until someone who understands this gets their hands on one and writes about it.
Yeah, the problem came when reviews became entertainment.