M4 Pro Mac Mini - form over function?

[LelandHendrix]

OK, USB-C hater here (I've expounded enough on other threads) but I don't see lack of USB-A as a big issue for the M4 Mini - my Studio already has a bunch of USB-C to A adapters plugged in and they sit there out of sight, out of mind...

It helps that the ethernet, HDMI, power and audio sockets haven't been dumped.
The base M4 is actually ahead of the game c.f. the M2 with 3 TB4 ports + 2 USB-C/3.2 ports.

But the less good news - and where the form-over-function rears its head - is:

The M4 Pro model has actually lost a TB port (and hence has one less USB port overall) c.f. the M2 Pro. Since even the regular M4 can support 4xTB4 (and does on the iMac) this looks like a mixture of form-over-function (no space on the unnecessarily-small rear panel or motherboard edges) and penny-pinching (Apple save a TB re-timer chip and some mainboard circuitry - but somehow that wasn't a problem with the M2 Pro).

Even the regular M4 could have had 4xTB4 - but maybe you can justify that "because entry-level" - but the M4 Pro isn't entry-level (if the "pro" means anything, it's that).

Then.. the front USB ports sound like a feature - except they haven't been added - they've been moved from the back to free up space. Front USB is a nice extra for memory sticks etc. - but not at the expense of rear, out-of-sight/out-of-mind connectivity. (C.f. the Studio where the rear panel is much the same as the M2 Pro Mini and the front sockets are extra).

Now this is an argument I can recognize. I can certainly see the utility of extra thunderbolt ports, and for those docking something like an MBA with two ports (like I have for a while) a dock with extra downstream thunderbolt ports is a must.

I *guess* I'm going to console myself for now with the idea that on M4 pro they are TB5, but I certainly admit being wrong for those users with 4 thunderbolt ports currently in use.

 

[ProgRocker]

What is awkward about the audio jack being on the front? The front is ideal for headphones; awkward is trying to constantly be plugging headphones into the back of a device.

And where are we supposed to plug in computer speakers ? In the front too ?
If you find it awkward to have a speaker jack in the back, then the Mac Studio must be very awkward for you.

 

[theluggage]

And where are we supposed to plug in computer speakers ? In the front too ?

You will buy a Studio Display and you will use the speakers in that. Otherwise, you are holding it wrong.

Personally, I don't use the audio jack on my Mac Studio - I have an external audio interface connected via USB that has balanced speaker outputs on the back and a full-size headphone jack on the front - because, of course, nobody has different needs from mine.

Sigh. Somehow, in 2006, we could have a desktop Mac Pro that wasn't much more expensive than a well tricked out M4 Pro Mini that had a headphone jack on the front *and* a line-out jack on the back. Not to mention TOSlink/SPDIF digital. Something where the designers have thought "what useful features can we build in" not "how many useful features can we strip out by pretending that people don't need it".

 

[theluggage]

And in these rare instances, you can turn it on with a keyboard.

No, you can turn it on with an Apple Magic Keyboard - but this is a headless desktop, half the point is that you get to bring your own display, mouse & keyboard (that was literally the sales pitch for the original Mac Mini).

 

[aevan]

No, you can turn it on with an Apple Magic Keyboard - but this is a headless desktop, half the point is that you get to bring your own display, mouse & keyboard (that was literally the sales pitch for the original Mac Mini).

Ok, then you have to press the button from time to time and lift the gigantic computer up. Horrible.

 

[Fishrrman]

I did a bit of adjustment to the pic in reply 135 above.
Could someone point out to this old guy -- where is the fan?

 

[EugW]

I did a bit of adjustment to the pic in reply 135 above.
Could someone point out to this old guy -- where is the fan?
View attachment 2445325

I'm thinking in the middle of the base, but that's a guess.

 

[PaulD-UK]

@Fishrrman "where is the fan?"

The arrow points to what appears to be a vertical tube 60-70mm or more in diameter, depth ~20mm.
This is the form factor for a fan, with room for a heatsink matrix (attached to the heat pipe) below the fan, and above the exhaust vents in the base.

Of course I'm guessing, but it all looks extremely possible...

 

[ProgRocker]

Sigh. Somehow, in 2006, we could have a desktop Mac Pro that wasn't much more expensive than a well tricked out M4 Pro Mini that had a headphone jack on the front *and* a line-out jack on the back. Not to mention TOSlink/SPDIF digital. Something where the designers have thought "what useful features can we build in" not "how many useful features can we strip out by pretending that people don't need it".

Yes... exactly.

 

[HairyMab32]

I can’t tell if this is an intentional troll or if people here just like to complain for the sake of complaining. Is it a small design? For sure, but people forget these are ARM SoC, not your power hungry x86 CPUs. These are going to use a fraction of the power and thus only require a fraction of the cooling system size. Everyone knows Apple already over-engineers just about every aspect of their product. If they didn’t think this product was able to properly use a Pro SoC, they wouldn’t plop one in for use. It will have adequate cooling. Ever since M series silicon came out, these Macs have never needed hardcore cooling. I guess we won’t find out for sure until these are in the consumers hands, but I find this post to be ridiculous.

 

[deconstruct60]

I did a bit of adjustment to the pic in reply 135 above.
Could someone point out to this old guy -- where is the fan?
View attachment 2445325

It is FAR better to go watch the full animation at the Apple website. The above is like showing a single frame in a high action movie and trying to deduce the full movie plot details.

Mac mini

The new, smaller Mac mini with the M4 or M4 Pro chip. Built for Apple Intelligence. Now with front and back ports. And the first carbon neutral Mac.

www.apple.com

the "Built to chill" section on that page. You can hit the replay button there to wartch 2-3 times.


The fan is in the bottom of the Mini .... just last the last 10+ years. What highly likely happend here is that they shifted is more the ducting around the fan than the fan itself.

The big change this has been missed in this thread is that they have gone from TWO air vents to just one. They used to be vent on the back for exhaust and one on the bottom for input/ingest. Now they are using the 'old' bottom vent to do both. They are going to have to physically segregate those two in even plausibly do both. ( The final shot of the animation shows a bottom view of the system. That should make things much more clear . )

What this animation doesn't show is the ducting. Possibllity because the ducting with cover up many parts of the picture .

The fan is likely slightly offset in the middle. ( like M1/M2 Mini ). M2 Mini on the right below

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/m2-pro-mac-mini-teardown-via-macstadium.2378200/

Or that there are two smaller fans. One is like the M2 Pro above highly skewed toward one side of the circle and another toward the opposite side . That would be a "push me , pull you" kind of set up. The way the scope of the input and output of the vent is asymmetrical It would make more sense (since the pressure on input and output likely would need to be different. )


What is different is that plastic ducting leading away from the fan does. The right hand side of your picture above is indicative that some of that is 'shot' up internally so can flow over the back side of upper logic board. Then back over and under before it is likely 'squeezed' through an exhaust duct ( that segregates 'hot' only to the back 1/4 of the uni-vent. )

Like the Mac Studio I suspect the power supply is stuffed into the middle layer.

Mac Studio: Should You Buy? Features, Price, Reviews and More

The Mac Studio is a pro-oriented desktop Mac that's a hybrid between a Mac mini and a Mac Pro. Equipped with an M2 Max or M2 Ultra chip, tons of...

www.macrumors.com

The powers needs are much lower so that no where near as big. (i.e., ends up thinner. )

The Mac Studio has TWO vents though. So the fans are on top. The mini design chops off the top (and vent) so air need to go back 'down' where it came from to get out.

 

[aibloop]

I have speakers plugged into my Mac Studio…add me to the “mic jack in the back” crew.

Just turn it around

 

[deconstruct60]

... The front is ideal for headphones; awkward is trying to constantly be plugging headphones into the back of a device. ...

And where are we supposed to plug in computer speakers ? In the front too ?
If you find it awkward to have a speaker jack in the back, then the Mac Studio must be very awkward for you.

Part of the disconnect here is flip-flopping between 'headphones' and 'speakers'. Broadly speaking headphones are speakers , but in most cases these are two different products. One goes on your head and/or in ear. The other sits on the desk/shelf/wall.

The icon that Apple puts on the socket is a headphone. Of course, they don't sell primarily wired, 3.5mm headphones. ( usb-c ear pods still around. And 'optional' connectors on some headphones. )

 

[deconstruct60]

I am quite confident it is going to be silent. That is something Apple cares a lot about, and it is a considerable part of their value proposition to many users. I very much doubt they would go forward with this chassis redesign if it resulted in loud operation.

Apple clearly laid out their primary chassis development objective. .... use less Aluminum.

They have gone from TWO down to one air vent. ( the input air shares a bottom vent with the output air). That means to move the same amount of air through the Mini chassis that it would need to move faster. Faster velocity air isn't likely going to produce more quiet.

The old mini had more capacity, but they are tossing low velocity flow capacity by 'halving' the air for air to flow through.

The plain Mx sure that is probably a more than easy trade off. The Mx Pro with all cores , substantive TB5 port draw, 10BeE. etc. that isn't as safe as an assumption. Jet engine loud, no. But just as low as the M2 Pro was with zero backslide? that remains to be seen.

Apple is likely going to sell more plain M4 models of this than the M4 Pro ones. And that's pretty likely where the sweet spot of the thermal design is skewed toward. The top end M4 Pro has a good chance of being just 'shoe horned' into this design. If the top end M4 Pro was the prime thermal target , then likely would not have given up two vents.



Also not clear if they have avoid re-ingesting the output air into the inputs either when not placed in pristine conditions either. ( Apple has failed on overlooked thermal coupling issues before, Mac Pro 2013. This smells the same. The quest to hide all the air vents from view isn't driven by better aero or thermodynamics goals. )

 

[weezin]

As you said to another person with a different perspective, with all respect obviously, this reads to me like another typical MacRumors comment 'Apple didn't design what I personally wanted, so clearly Apple is screwing up, when all they had to do was 'x'.' I get it, you don't want the extra cost of a Mac Studio, or maybe you just don't want to wait, but there is a sizable market that doesn't need the power of a Mac Studio, that will appreciate the more compact design (with less materials used, remember lowering the carbon footprint was also part of the design), and the low cost form factor.

People have been complaining that the mini form factor hasn't changed in a decade. Well here it is, the natural progression of the mini to separate it from the Mac Studio. You design suggestions would push it back to the Mac Studio. As for heat dissipation, people have been warning the same with the MacBook Air design that has NO fan... and yet.. the sky hasn't fallen yet. It is much cooler than the previous intel designs that did have a fan.

Your stance is aggressive and speculative. Even when the reviews come out, no doubt someone will find a situation where they can push it to a place that you will say 'see, I was right.' We have seen plenty of click bait videos like that. Thing is, they never reflect how 99.9% of users actually use the device. So I find it hard to rise up in arms and demand Apple designs us a Mac mini that is like a Mac Studio, but cheaper.

It's a good machine at a good price. Buy one and test it yourself with your work load. If it doesn't suit you, return and either wait for the studio, or try a MacBook Pro.

We could have ended the thread here! Well said.

 

[NewOldStock]

I can’t tell if this is an intentional troll or if people here just like to complain for the sake of complaining. Is it a small design? For sure, but people forget these are ARM SoC, not your power hungry x86 CPUs. These are going to use a fraction of the power and thus only require a fraction of the cooling system size. Everyone knows Apple already over-engineers just about every aspect of their product. If they didn’t think this product was able to properly use a Pro SoC, they wouldn’t plop one in for use. It will have adequate cooling. Ever since M series silicon came out, these Macs have never needed hardcore cooling. I guess we won’t find out for sure until these are in the consumers hands, but I find this post to be ridiculous.

And don't for get all the Parrots! Read it on the internet it must be true!

 

[smirking]

And where are we supposed to plug in computer speakers ? In the front too ?
If you find it awkward to have a speaker jack in the back, then the Mac Studio must be very awkward for you.

This is why I always position my Mac Mini sideways and upside down. Problem solved.

Anyway, I can see the case for the Studio having the audio in the back and the Mini having it in the front. They're designed with different personas in mind. One is more casual and the other is more professional. It doesn't mean the people who end up buying them will necessarily fit that mold.

If the location of the jack is that much of a problem you can get a right angle adapter so it won't stick out as much or get an external DAC and position it however you want. I find plugging headphones into my computer to be generally awkward so if I'm wearing headphones it's usually plugged into a Bluetooth DAC so I can be wireless.

 

[JoeG4]

The big change this has been missed in this thread is that they have gone from TWO air vents to just one. They used to be vent on the back for exhaust and one on the bottom for input/ingest. Now they are using the 'old' bottom vent to do both. They are going to have to physically segregate those two in even plausibly do both. ( The final shot of the animation shows a bottom view of the system. That should make things much more clear . )

I've taken apart a few minis over the years and I really can't remember the bottom having much in terms of a vent. Maybe a very narrow slit between the black plastic cover and the aluminum chassis?

And the m1 mini is mostly empty space inside anyway lol.

The nice thing about a larger enclosure would be if it had mesh and a nice quiet 120mm noctua fan barely spinning to keep things cool. But then it'd look clunky. Oh well.

I'm feeling pretty neutral about the m4 mini. It looks interesting to me! I'm curious to see how it turns out.

IMHO if someone's worried about pushing its limits they should just get a mac studio anyway. The price difference between a fully loaded mini and base model studio isn't much.

 

[ProgRocker]

This is why I always position my Mac Mini sideways and upside down. Problem solved.

Anyway, I can see the case for the Studio having the audio in the back and the Mini having it in the front. They're designed with different personas in mind. One is more casual and the other is more professional. It doesn't mean the people who end up buying them will necessarily fit that mold.

If the location of the jack is that much of a problem you can get a right angle adapter so it won't stick out as much or get an external DAC and position it however you want. I find plugging headphones into my computer to be generally awkward so if I'm wearing headphones it's usually plugged into a Bluetooth DAC so I can be wireless.

I think the obvious answer is to put an audio port on the front and back. I can't imagine that would greatly affect the cost. As far as headphones, maybe it's just me but I can't be bothered wearing headphones for that long. Just too uncomfortable.

 

[DCIFRTHS]

I did a bit of adjustment to the pic in reply 135 above.
Could someone point out to this old guy -- where is the fan?
View attachment 2445325

I’m guessing that it works similarly to the cooling system in the 4K (A10X) version of Apple TV. You can see the fan assembly here or here.

 

[theluggage]

If the location of the jack is that much of a problem

Well, yeah, it's not like the Mini has ever had a front headphone socket - so nothings been taken away - and the use of wired headphones probably hasn't increased since 2006. 3.5" jack sockets are a common point of failure, and many people for whom Bluetooth isn't good enough for audio listening will want external audiophile DACs, pre-amps etc.

Still, Macs in the past have featured separate headphone and line out sockets - aside from location the functionality is different, e.g. plugging in headphones usually disable the internal speakers, having an independent volume control/limiter on headphones helps. Then there's the case of someone who has external speakers and headphones - they might not use them simultaneously, but it's a pain to keep changing plugs.

Also - last time I looked, bluetooth headphones suffered from horrible latency which made them as much use as an inflatable dartboard for monitoring "real time" audio (e.g. playing music, recording your own speech or gaming) - as opposed to listening to recorded sound or video (recorded video playback can be automagically delayed to compensate for audio latency).

I'd file this one under "wouldn't it be nice if desktop computers were designed with as many useful ports and facilities as possible, rather than treated like ultrabooks and tablets which had to sacrifice versatilty to being thin and light".

I still haven't seen any coherent reason why making the Mac Mini smaller brings any benefit to users that would offset the penalties of port rationing and stealthed power buttons (sure, less desk space - but that's not necessarily less usable desk space since Minis tend to sit under the display) - making it taller at the same time is worse for VESA mounting behind a display - and the power button debacle is even worse if you're going to put it in a rack or under-desk mount. Yeah... less packaging and shipping costs for Apple, but I've bought £10 items that were bigger and heavier than an old-school Mac Mini, so that really is extreme bean-counting on a high "value density" product like a £600+ computer. Plus, I don't see Apple passing those savings on...

IMHO if someone's worried about pushing its limits they should just get a mac studio anyway.

...fine, but the Studio Max available at the moment has an outdated M2 Max processor (not even a M3) with fewer, slower cores than the M4 Pro and missing the new AI and raytracing features. It's not a good buy right now. However we don't know if/when a M4 Max Studio will appear, or what "courageous" design "innovations" will be applied by the geniuses who think putting the power switch on the bottom is a good idea - esp. if they are left unchallenged.

 

[EugW]

^^^ The Apple USB-C to headphone jack would solve the problem for a rear connection, but of course it wastes a Thunderbolt port, and I’ve already earmarked the 3 rear ports for other devices. I wonder though how reliable that headphone dongle would be through my Thunderbolt 4 hub. Hmmm…

TB #1 - External SSD
TB #2 - External Time Machine HD
TB #3 - Thunderbolt 4 hub*

*Thunderbolt hub - Plugable USB4 / TB4 hub
- USB-C monitor
- USB-C to headphone jack dongle
- USB keyboard
- USB RF mouse

 

[LelandHendrix]

I’m guessing that it works similarly to the cooling system in the 4K (A10X) version of Apple TV. You can see the fan assembly here or here.

Similar in that it has a fan and that’s about all. Watching the introduction animation of the M4 mini’s cooling demonstrates air channels and a clear separation of air drawn in/out of the base. That is not at all the situation in the older non-current generation of Apple TV with a fan.

 

[philipma1957]

See, this is the kind of Apple apologetics I don't get, with all respect obviously. So, if Apple had made the Mac Mini slightly larger, instead of overdoing the size reduction for the "wow-factor" during their presentation, you might as well get the Mac Pro? Seriously...

This is (most likely) Apple creating a problem that didn't need to exist. Just like with the previous MacBook Pro machines, which were so thin they become overly hot and uncomfortable to use, including the awful butterfly keyboard.

Don't get me wrong, I want it to succeed, as the Pro chip makes more sense for my audio/music work. Maybe Apple did some engineering "magic" on the new Mac Mini, but that seems unlikely given the limitations of heat transfer mechanics.

You are correct any one disagreeing is wrong. 0.25 inch taller and 0.5 inch wider would cool better. Assuming proper design for cooling.

Now that is a fact due to the laws of physics. I am thinking of getting one. As I get a lot of discounts.
My gift cards are at a 10% discount. I get 10% off as a veteran. I think I want the pro with 48gb ram and a 4tb ssd

but that is over two k with my discounts. Still it would be good if it does not overheat.

I would have prefered it to be taller and wider thus less fear of overheating

 

[ProgRocker]

^^^ The Apple USB-C to headphone jack would solve the problem for a rear connection, but of course it wastes a Thunderbolt port

Yes, I believe that's the point. Though it is what it is... but taking up a T5 port for an audio jack is wasteful