Mac Mini / Intel NUC shock

[phrehdd]

I admit I am* a fan of Mac Minis .... well um until this last iteration. I find my quad 2.6 to be an excellent performer - especially after putting in additional RAM (3rd party) and an SSD (3rd party).

However, I wont be buying any more Mac Minis if Apple continues castrating them. It is plain and simple - they are for the price not a good deal by any measure. As for apps, anyone can download free office software so iWorks is not a big deal to me. Folks who do business will more often than not get the MS Office which is an added cost.

For now, I'll stick with my Mac Minis and rMBP and call it a day. I'll wait and see if Apple starts to move forward with Minis that include quad CPUs and if not, happy to go build another small computer and use Windows and Linux as I did before going to the Mac.

 

[wiredup72]

If you have been in the business so long, then you understand that there is no such thing as future proofing.

Yes. We agree. Which is nice. And it is exactly why I will not consider RAM compression future proofing.
Which is why I am kind of bewildered by your response. You don't believe in future proofing, but you think RAM compression means one wont need more RAM in the near or midterm future.

 

[wiredup72]

I admit I am* a fan of Mac Minis .... well um until this last iteration. I find my quad 2.6 to be an excellent performer - especially after putting in additional RAM (3rd party) and an SSD (3rd party).
...
For now, I'll stick with my Mac Minis and rMBP and call it a day. I'll wait and see if Apple starts to move forward with Minis that include quad CPUs and if not, happy to go build another small computer and use Windows and Linux as I did before going to the Mac.

That's where I am at too. Except I have always had to use Mac OS to support photo and art editors (former job at national news magazine), and we have always had Macs since AIIC. But, I switched to OS X full time and personal when they forked from FreeBSD, which is one of the three main Unix OS's I was using at work at the time: Free, OpenBSD (the best) and Solaris.

I haven't really had to touch Linux except on my Raspberry Pi's and my QNAP. I will hate to give up OSX because I love it, but they are bugging it out anyways. Friends are telling me to try Linux Mint, but Logic is one of my primary apps. There are other really good recording software packages out there, so if they keep pushing me over my personal limit, then, oh well.

My iPhone 6 is another matter. My favorite Digital device I have ever used in my life. Perfect size and the supercomputing and uber-internetting power is mind boggling to me (I remember the celebration we had at work to upgrade our entire company's internet connection from 184kbps to a T-1 back in early '97)
You can pry my iPhone 6 out of my cold dead hands

 

[paulrbeers]

Yes. We agree. Which is nice. And it is exactly why I will not consider RAM compression future proofing.
Which is why I am kind of bewildered by your response. You don't believe in future proofing, but you think RAM compression means one wont need more RAM in the near or midterm future.

No I believe a $700 computer is only good for 2-3 years tops. Thus why does it matter.... RAM compression (which by the way is now even being used by Microsoft, thus seems to be an industry standard which is about as close to future proofing as you can get) is a tool that will be in at least a couple more generations of OSX. At $700 bucks (savings of $200 for not maxing out the RAM), you can take the $200 you saved, plus the $300+ you will get by selling the Mini and put that towards another $700 computer (your total output in 3 years is maybe $300-400).

 

[phrehdd]

That's where I am at too. Except I have always had to use Mac OS to support photo and art editors (former job at national news magazine), and we have always had Macs since AIIC. But, I switched to OS X full time and personal when they forked from FreeBSD, which is one of the three main Unix OS's I was using at work at the time: Free, OpenBSD (the best) and Solaris.

I haven't really had to touch Linux except on my Raspberry Pi's and my QNAP. I will hate to give up OSX because I love it, but they are bugging it out anyways. Friends are telling me to try Linux Mint, but Logic is one of my primary apps. There are other really good recording software packages out there, so if they keep pushing me over my personal limit, then, oh well.

My iPhone 6 is another matter. My favorite Digital device I have ever used in my life. Perfect size and the supercomputing and uber-internetting power is mind boggling to me (I remember the celebration we had at work to upgrade our entire company's internet connection from 184kbps to a T-1 back in early '97)
You can pry my iPhone 6 out of my cold dead hands

I got my first Mac when it went Intel, went BSD Unix variant and of course was guided this way thanks to Micro$oft putting out Vista. If I had to look back into the past and say what I miss the most it would be OS/2 along with REXX scripting language. For now, I'll keep those Minis working and my rMBP serves as my main system.

It is interesting how time/history plays out. Apple had the Newton that went no where fast and was a decent offering and of course PDAs that were quite powerful that allowed you to add cell phone capability. Today we have iPad and iPhone (grin).

 

[mmomega]

I was having the same questions a year or two ago and I decided to pick up a few NUC's and it was one of the worst decisions I made. The machines were just basic workstation computers and each one died within 5 months of purchase one of them within a week.
I then purchased quite a few Mac Mini's and have been running strong ever since, they are small, I can mount them under a desktop or even on the back or a large monitor with VESA mount. Have right around 30 Mini's total, 1 - 2010, a couple 2011's, majority are 2012's and about 5 - 2014 models.

 

[wiredup72]

No I believe a $700 computer is only good for 2-3 years tops. Thus why does it matter.... RAM compression (which by the way is now even being used by Microsoft, thus seems to be an industry standard which is about as close to future proofing as you can get) is a tool that will be in at least a couple more generations of OSX. At $700 bucks (savings of $200 for not maxing out the RAM), you can take the $200 you saved, plus the $300+ you will get by selling the Mini and put that towards another $700 computer (your total output in 3 years is maybe $300-400).

Very good points. I agree even more. In fact, for the price range you are talking about, you have me convinced.

But what I have been looking for is not even a product option anymore. I want a $1500 mac without a built in monitor that will last me 6 or 7 years. Thus, if I was looking today I would want 16gb standards and to be able to upgrade to at least 32GB, or even 64GB, later. I wan't quad core because they aren't making Logic any speedier, that's for sure.

I was looking for the last year and a half; waiting and waiting and stretching it to the max, then an awesome friend lent me their i5 quad core iMac that was gathering dust for the last few months and said I can use it for the midterm future, nice woman. But as soon as I can afford a 30" 4k display, I want to be able to get one.

Trust me, if I could shell out for a Pro, I would have done so already. However my wife gets priority these days as she works with huge Statistical programs for work and has been back in school getting a phd. So she got the pretty rMBP while our '06 and '07 laptops chug along (one with a shattered screen too!).

I am also least grateful some folks here watch the NUC market, because I forget about it for months at a time. I have done Hackintosh before and have used some Architect friend's latest Hac's and they just don't cut it.

 

[wiredup72]

I was having the same questions a year or two ago and I decided to pick up a few NUC's and it was one of the worst decisions I made. The machines were just basic workstation computers and each one died within 5 months of purchase one of them within a week.
I then purchased quite a few Mac Mini's and have been running strong ever since, they are small, I can mount them under a desktop or even on the back or a large monitor with VESA mount. Have right around 30 Mini's total, 1 - 2010, a couple 2011's, majority are 2012's and about 5 - 2014 models.

Nice. I wish they had been an option back when I setup an entire small "law" firm in late 2001. My god, the crap we had to go through.
Glad you had to go through the headaches with the NUCs and not me, though

 

[duervo]

I got my first Mac when it went Intel, went BSD Unix variant and of course was guided this way thanks to Micro$oft putting out Vista. If I had to look back into the past and say what I miss the most it would be OS/2 along with REXX scripting language. For now, I'll keep those Minis working and my rMBP serves as my main system.

It is interesting how time/history plays out. Apple had the Newton that went no where fast and was a decent offering and of course PDAs that were quite powerful that allowed you to add cell phone capability. Today we have iPad and iPhone (grin).

You can still get your OS/2 on with eComStation.

 

[ariestom1962]

The problem with the newer Mac Mini generation is that you cannot modify anything without voiding the warranty.
Before you could change HDD and Memory. That is all over!
I have an older model Mac Mini and am happy with it. I also have Microsoft PC's and also happy with them.

There is no comparison between Intel NUC and Mac Mini. NUC all the way!
Especially now that Microsoft is going the same direction with Windows 10 as Apple does with OSX.

There is always improvement on either side but considering hardware option Apple sure screwed that one up.
And the price difference is outrageous. Even with their pre-installed software there is no comparison anymore.
I truly supported Apple in the past and at this point I guess it would be better for them to make Apple OS available for all PC users. I still think that they have a better OS product so far.
So maybe dropping the arrogance by limiting users would be a good thing!

Too bad!

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[Crosscreek]

The problem with the newer Mac Mini generation is that you cannot modify anything without voiding the warranty.
Before you could change HDD and Memory. That is all over!
I have an older model Mac Mini and am happy with it. I also have Microsoft PC's and also happy with them.

There is no comparison between Intel NUC and Mac Mini. NUC all the way!
Especially now that Microsoft is going the same direction with Windows 10 as Apple does with OSX.

There is always improvement on either side but considering hardware option Apple sure screwed that one up.
And the price difference is outrageous. Even with their pre-installed software there is no comparison anymore.
I truly supported Apple in the past and at this point I guess it would be better for them to make Apple OS available for all PC users. I still think that they have a better OS product so far.
So maybe dropping the arrogance by limiting users would be a good thing!

Too bad!

Cheers,

Thomas

I agree that Apple has chosen the wrong direction with the new Mini by limiting user friendly/wallet friendly upgrades.

The new NUCs have gained a reputation of a good mini PC with ease of upgrades while Windows 10 has earned good marks as an OS that is desktop friendly again.

Apple is not interested in competing in the Mini PC market any longer except for entry level expensive path to OS X.

Their Bad.

 

[Santabean2000]

I feel like this very thread has been beaten to death over and over and over again.....

Yes you can buy non-Mac hardware cheaper especially if you go with the high end stuff.

But what about Mid-range? What if you are happy with i5's and 8GB of RAM and a DIY SSD....

$670 for a Mid-Mini + $100 for SSD = $770

$400 for NUC + $50 Memory + $100 SSD + $140 (windows pro OEM) = Approx $700

Now the difference is fairly minimal. Just sayin'. Maxing out a Mac from Apple has never been a financially sound decision.

But the fact that you have to buy more upfront with all the glue/solder these days is exactly the issue.

If you can get by on base spec then no issue, but for everyone else it sucks.

 

[acadiel]

Yep. For those who want to buy barebones and then upgrade, it sucks. Those of us who typically buy max ram (16GB or 32GB or whatever) in a system, it doesn't impact as much. I got a refurb mini with a 1TB Fusion Drive and 16GB for a decent price. I can still go and upgrade the hard drive if I want.

 

[Algus]

I've got no interest in paying Apple $700 for a 1 TB SSD. If they can get that for an SSD, good for them. I've got stock in Apple and I like when it goes up. If being able to supply my own drive is out of the question, I'll turn to external storage. I imagine it's a solution that would work for most people who want massive storage on their computer.

Real loss on the Mini for me was dropping the quad-core CPU. If the Haswell units had offered a SKU with a quad-core, I probably would have upgraded even with the soldered parts.

Other users here are right IMO. I've no real need for the 16 GB RAM or the 960 GB SSD. It's like tuning up a car. No one's driving 120 MPH (at least on roads patrolled by the cops LOL) but it's still fun to have one and do the work. The hobby aspect of being able to work on my Mac and supply my own parts is what I'm going to miss.

 

[Micky Do]

I've got no interest in paying Apple $700 for a 1 TB SSD. If they can get that for an SSD, good for them. I've got stock in Apple and I like when it goes up. If being able to supply my own drive is out of the question, I'll turn to external storage. I imagine it's a solution that would work for most people who want massive storage on their computer.

Real loss on the Mini for me was dropping the quad-core CPU. If the Haswell units had offered a SKU with a quad-core, I probably would have upgraded even with the soldered parts.

Other users here are right IMO. I've no real need for the 16 GB RAM or the 960 GB SSD. It's like tuning up a car. No one's driving 120 MPH (at least on roads patrolled by the cops LOL) but it's still fun to have one and do the work. The hobby aspect of being able to work on my Mac and supply my own parts is what I'm going to miss.

Macs are good for folks who just want to do stuff on a computer, of whom I am one. Geeks who enjoy messing around with hardware and software are likely to find more satisfaction elsewhere.

 

[davekro]

Where did I ever whine about or even mention price? I merely said iWork and iLife are not adequate for my uses so the fact that they are included, while great for you, is useless to me.

I concur. If you live and work in a MS office world, then then the supplied office type Apple apps have zero value, period. Good for you Mickey Do that you are fine with the Apple apps. But I think you are in probably in the minority. For me, on top of the Apple price premium, I always know I pay again to get the MS apps I need to add as well. It is frustrating that MS Office 2008, 2011 and 2016 all do not play well with Yosemite or El Capitan... yet.
I can only guess it is an ego/ pissing contest with the Apple/ MS competition that neither company seems to care very much about working together to make the MS software work with new OS releases. And with minor OS release cycle being too fast, maybe Apple's plan with new OS's is to F' Up MS operation on Apple machines!

 

[Algus]

Macs are good for folks who just want to do stuff on a computer, of whom I am one. Geeks who enjoy messing around with hardware and software are likely to find more satisfaction elsewhere.

That is fine but literally was not that case until 2012. 2014 Minis are not any easier to use because all of their parts are soldered.

 

[Ice Dragon]

The NUC with Iris Pro 580 should really be worth it. That being said, the NUC with Iris 6100 (base price $680) if you configure at SimplyNUC.com with 16 GB of RAM (+$95), a 256 M.2 SSD (+$85), Windows 10 Pro (+$150), and get a three year warranty on parts and labor (+$49), it adds up to a total of $1,059.

The Mac mini is $699 and for 16 GB of RAM it's an additional $200, for a 256 GB PCIe SSD it's an additional $200, and for Applecare it's $99. You do not need the i7 processor as that is dual-core not quad-core.

 

[dogslobber]

Other users here are right IMO. I've no real need for the 16 GB RAM or the 960 GB SSD. It's like tuning up a car. No one's driving 120 MPH (at least on roads patrolled by the cops LOL) but it's still fun to have one and do the work. The hobby aspect of being able to work on my Mac and supply my own parts is what I'm going to miss.

16gb and a 1tb SSD are not exotic items. They're middle of the road working necessities. There are two real issues that people have with the obsessive control Apple has with successive generations. Firstly, they remove an option by regressing the hardware so no after market upgrades for you. Class action law suits against auto manufacturers occur due to this type of shenanigans. Secnd, where Apple restores a parity by removing the after market upgrade option, then they price gouge for pure profit.

 

[paulrbeers]

16gb and a 1tb SSD are not exotic items. They're middle of the road working necessities. There are two real issues that people have with the obsessive control Apple has with successive generations. Firstly, they remove an option by regressing the hardware so no after market upgrades for you. Class action law suits against auto manufacturers occur due to this type of shenanigans. Secnd, where Apple restores a parity by removing the after market upgrade option, then they price gouge for pure profit.

Middle of the Road working necessities? We are talking about a basic dual core entry level machine right? Further, I've worked for several fortune 500 companies and 95% of the development teams I've been on, requires 8GB of RAM and a 256GB SSD. Most of the devs I've worked with run nothing more than HP thin Elitebooks because at this time they are more than powerful enough for our development technologies (whether it is mainframe, web portals, etc.). I'm not sure where you get "middle of the road working necessities" from.... If 95% of our developers do not need more power than 8GB of RAM and 256GB of SSD, and they represent only about 5-10% of a fortune 500 company, then you are talking less than 1% of workers require more! Not exactly "middle of the road working necessities" my friend.....

Maybe if you are doing heavy graphics or videos, but again that isn't "middle of the road"..... That's a 1% category again.

 

[dogslobber]

Middle of the Road working necessities? We are talking about a basic dual core entry level machine right? Further, I've worked for several fortune 500 companies and 95% of the development teams I've been on, requires 8GB of RAM and a 256GB SSD. Most of the devs I've worked with run nothing more than HP thin Elitebooks because at this time they are more than powerful enough for our development technologies (whether it is mainframe, web portals, etc.). I'm not sure where you get "middle of the road working necessities" from.... If 95% of our developers do not need more power than 8GB of RAM and 256GB of SSD, and they represent only about 5-10% of a fortune 500 company, then you are talking less than 1% of workers require more! Not exactly "middle of the road working necessities" my friend.....

Maybe if you are doing heavy graphics or videos, but again that isn't "middle of the road"..... That's a 1% category again.

Sounds like you're comparing Apples to oranges. IF you do development on a Mac then 16gb is mandatory. I could rattle off the apps which gobble memory quite quickly.

 

[Crzyrio]

Middle of the Road working necessities? We are talking about a basic dual core entry level machine right? Further, I've worked for several fortune 500 companies and 95% of the development teams I've been on, requires 8GB of RAM and a 256GB SSD. Most of the devs I've worked with run nothing more than HP thin Elitebooks because at this time they are more than powerful enough for our development technologies (whether it is mainframe, web portals, etc.). I'm not sure where you get "middle of the road working necessities" from.... If 95% of our developers do not need more power than 8GB of RAM and 256GB of SSD, and they represent only about 5-10% of a fortune 500 company, then you are talking less than 1% of workers require more! Not exactly "middle of the road working necessities" my friend.....

Maybe if you are doing heavy graphics or videos, but again that isn't "middle of the road"..... That's a 1% category again.

I work for a tiny company and even we need more processing power than your 'Fortune 500' company.

All software developers have 16GB of Ram with 1TB SSD.

All mechanical designers have Workstations with Xeon processors and 32GB of ram (Windows Machine) but still a valid comparison.


You are right in the average consumer may not need an 1TB SSD but they do need atleast 500GB HDD. 8GB ram is the bare minimum for someone developing.

 

[Ice Dragon]

Perhaps the quad-core Mac mini was purely an experiment because there was never a quad-core machine before 2011. They tried it at $999 and it probably wasn't a big seller so they dropped it to $799 and it still wasn't a big seller so they dropped it completely. Of course having an i7 dual-core option at $999 is also not going to sell either and the $499 model is garbage as well.

If I'm Apple (and I may have said this before so pardon if I'm repeating myself), I make just one type of Mac mini which is essentially the mid-range model that they have now for $699 or $599 if I can get away with it. I allow a host of options including 16 GB RAM, 1 TB or 2 TB Fusion Drive, 256 GB, 512 GB, 1 TB PCIe PCIe flash storage, etc. etc.

Maybe I make a limited test run of larger minis with Iris Pro 580 if it's feasible and see how they sell. If I send an order of 50-100k units and they sell out within a decent period of time, I have another batch made.

 

[paulrbeers]

I work for a tiny company and even we need more processing power than your 'Fortune 500' company.

All software developers have 16GB of Ram with 1TB SSD.

All mechanical designers have Workstations with Xeon processors and 32GB of ram (Windows Machine) but still a valid comparison.


You are right in the average consumer may not need an 1TB SSD but they do need atleast 500GB HDD. 8GB ram is the bare minimum for someone developing.

Take a look at the major Fortune 500 companies, how many of them design and build "stuff".... And of those that do, how much of their work force is the designers? Many of the Fortune 500 are retail, insurance, finance, etc. Their needs can't be accomplished on any sort of workstations. We use our "basic" machines to log into the development environments of our giant Big Data servers and do development or pull down the source code from repositories, make changes, and upload them to compile and run.

Any way you look at this: fact remains that the comment that 16gb is "Middle of the Road" is a complete exaggeration. Seeing as how even large engineering firms are half management and admins who don't do any of the engineering....

 

[Osty]

Sounds like you're comparing Apples to oranges. IF you do development on a Mac then 16gb is mandatory. I could rattle off the apps which gobble memory quite quickly.

Yeah, he's got you there. OS X is a ram hog compared to Windows and Linux. I work in a dev shop for a Fortune 500 and we use dells with 16gb ram/ 256 ssds. All the dev work is done in Ubuntu VMs