MP 14,8 Mac Pro 2023 is a scam

[Xenobius]

Mac Pro 2023 is a scam:

It is rather something like a poor expansion dock for Mac Studio and not a real workstation machine.

 

[mystery hill]

Mac Studio is a real workstation machine.

 

[Xenobius]

Mac Studio is a real workstation machine.

No. Mac Studio is basically a MacBook without a screen.

 

[h9826790]

Purely my personal opinion. All existing Apple Silicon computer shouldn't be defined as workstation. One of the main reason is lack of ECC memory.

I am not a super fans of ECC RAM, I can live without that. However, when we are talking about workstation, no matter we use the definition from Intel, or from Wiki. One of the main difference between workstation and normal PC is reliability / data integrity.

With ECC RAM, the hardware itself can detect and self correct some memory errors. This function doesn't exist on any Apple Silicon Mac, including Mac Studio and Mac Pro.

So, if a computer cannot detect memory error by itself. Which means data integrity is not guarantee. And I don't think it can't be categorised as workstation.

For reliability, it doesn't mean that the hardware on workstation cannot go wrong. But when something goes wrong, with ECC RAM, the user can know if there is any memory error straight away. Without ECC RAM, the user will need hours or even days to run memory test, and still no way to 100% sure if the RAM is really good.

 

[Longplays]

One could argue it's just an abacus with an Apple tax.

 

[Boil]

It is rather something like a poor expansion dock for Mac Studio and not a real workstation machine.

LOL, there is not a single expansion dock for the Mac Studio that can match the specs of the 2023 ASi Mac Pro PCIe slots, power delivery, or cooling...

 

[theluggage]

I am not a super fans of ECC RAM, I can live without that. However, when we are talking about workstation, no matter we use the definition from Intel, or from Wiki. One of the main difference between workstation and normal PC is reliability / data integrity.

Evidence?

I.e. mean time between crashes or significant errors with/without ECC - for the type of LPDDR RAM with ultra-short signal paths used by Apple Silicon....?

...in applications like digital video/audio where single bit errors might not be critical, and/or for applications that do their own data integrity checking?

...and not in a report written by Intel - who have made ECC RAM exclusive to their premium-priced Xeon processors so of course they think that a "Workstation" has to have ECC.

Those are genuine questions - I'd be interested to see (non-anecdotal) answers.

Then you have to weigh that against the speed advantages of Apple's on-package unified memory system. Adding ECC means more bits of physical RAM to get the same total RAM. LPDDR5 can use "inline" ECC - but that takes away a chunk of RAM to store the ECC check bits. It also slows things down - and on Apple Silicon that means slowing down the memory acting as VRAM too.

Mind you, I think the whole "workstation" label means about as much as "pro" and is a hangover from the days when Sun/SGI/DEC "Workstations" offered radically different hardware c.f. the "personal computers" of the day rather than "PC gaming hardware with the 'pro' drivers enabled (oh, and ECC)".

Either a machine is effective at doing a particular workload or it isn't. Plenty of people seem to be happily using Studios, iMacs, Minis and even MacBook Pros for serious video/audio/graphics production work. The three limiting factors that people are actually facing problems with seems to be RAM size (which isn't changing with Apple Silicon - and ECC would make that worse), the lack of discrete GPUs (which is as much about software compatibility, CUDA etc. as raw power - again, probably not changing with Apple Silicon) and non-GPU PCIe (which is the only thing the 2023 MP addresses - it should be much better than external TB4 enclosures - we'll see).

 

[Xenobius]

LOL, there is not a single expansion dock for the Mac Studio that can match the specs of the 2023 ASi Mac Pro PCIe slots, power delivery, or cooling...

Well, such an accessory for the Mac Studio has just arrived and Apple has named it the Mac Pro.

 

[Xenobius]

One could argue it's just an abacus with an Apple tax.

This product is already absurd enough. There is no need to reduce it to an even greater absurdity.

 

[Longplays]

Purely my personal opinion. All existing Apple Silicon computer shouldn't be defined as workstation. One of the main reason is lack of ECC memory.

I am not a super fans of ECC RAM, I can live without that. However, when we are talking about workstation, no matter we use the definition from Intel, or from Wiki. One of the main difference between workstation and normal PC is reliability / data integrity.

With ECC RAM, the hardware itself can detect and self correct some memory errors. This function doesn't exist on any Apple Silicon Mac, including Mac Studio and Mac Pro.

So, if a computer cannot detect memory error by itself. Which means data integrity is not guarantee. And I don't think it can't be categorised as workstation.

For reliability, it doesn't mean that the hardware on workstation cannot go wrong. But when something goes wrong, with ECC RAM, the user can know if there is any memory error straight away. Without ECC RAM, the user will need hours or even days to run memory test, and still no way to 100% sure if the RAM is really good.

Is ECC RAM a requirement for

• Music production
• Video transcoding
• 3D rendering
• Animation

 

[Longplays]

This product is already absurd enough. There is no need to reduce it to an even greater absurdity.

That video is unverified rumor. Wait for the actual product to land with a reviewer for a look over.

At this point it's just clickbait to drive traffic.

 

[Xenobius]

That video is unverified rumor. Wait for the actual product to land with a reviewer for a look over.

At this point it's just clickbait to drive traffic.

I'm waiting for the confirmation however this rumors unfortunately make sense if you look at the Mx Macs expansions ports history. Mx processors are designed to support low bandwidth Thunderbolt ports. Mac Pro 2023 looks like a garage job. Something has gone wrong here.
I understand that there was a lot of pressure to announce Apple's full transition to ARM, but it would have been better if the Mac Pro 2023 in this form had not been made at all. This is simply a great shame.

 

[Longplays]

I'm waiting for the confirmation however this rumors unfortunately make sense if you look at the Mx Macs expansions ports history. Mx processors are designed to support low bandwidth Thunderbolt ports. Mac Pro 2023 looks like a garage job. Something has gone wrong here.

I've yet to read any MR or any tech article about TB ports being the bottlenecks of their tech spec.

 

[Xenobius]

I've yet to read any MR or any tech article about TB ports being the bottlenecks of their tech spec.

Man, please...
The point is that one Thunderbolt port is roughly equivalent to a PCIe Gen3 3x connection (technically 4x) or 1,5-2x Gen4 lines. Where would Apple suddenly get a few dozen Gen4 PCIe lines from? Take a look at Apple's website - according to the description the Mac Pro should have 64 Gen4 lines + 4 Gen3 lines, plus support for 8 Thunderbolt ports (32x Gen3 lines), plus 2x 10Gbps Ethernet, plus 2x 8K HDMI ports and a few other connectors. For this you would need a powerful and dedicated server/workstation class processor, not a few glued together processors from an iPhone.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a hater. I love my MacBook M2 Max – it is absolutely amazing machine. There is simply a lot to suggest that the new Mac Pro is a technological failure. Apple has treated its most demanding user group like a bunch of idiots.

 

[Longplays]

Man, please...
The point is that one Thunderbolt port is roughly equivalent to a PCIe Gen3 3x connection (technically 4x) or one and a half Gen4 line. Where would Apple suddenly get a few dozen Gen4 PCIe lines from? Take a look at Apple's website - according to the description the Mac Pro should have 64 Gen4 lines + 4 Gen3 lines, plus support for 8 Thunderbolt ports (32x Gen3 lines), plus 2x 10Gbps Ethernet, plus 2x 8K HDMI ports and a few other connectors. For this you would need a powerful and dedicated server/workstation class processor, not a few glued together processors from an iPhone.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a hater. I love my MacBook M2 Max – it is absolutely amazing machine. There is simply a lot to suggest that the new Mac Pro is a technological failure. Apple has treated its most demanding user group like a bunch of idiots.

So in other words 2nd hand information from an anonymous source.

Take a time out from MR and enjoy your Saturday with family, friends or extended families rather than spreading unverified posts.

 

[apparatchik]

Purely my personal opinion. All existing Apple Silicon computer shouldn't be defined as workstation. One of the main reason is lack of ECC memory.

I am not a super fans of ECC RAM, I can live without that. However, when we are talking about workstation, no matter we use the definition from Intel, or from Wiki. One of the main difference between workstation and normal PC is reliability / data integrity.

With ECC RAM, the hardware itself can detect and self correct some memory errors. This function doesn't exist on any Apple Silicon Mac, including Mac Studio and Mac Pro.

So, if a computer cannot detect memory error by itself. Which means data integrity is not guarantee. And I don't think it can't be categorised as workstation.

For reliability, it doesn't mean that the hardware on workstation cannot go wrong. But when something goes wrong, with ECC RAM, the user can know if there is any memory error straight away. Without ECC RAM, the user will need hours or even days to run memory test, and still no way to 100% sure if the RAM is really good.

It's an interesting question about ECC memory in general and how relevant it might be today, and how much difference does it actually make in which specific tasks.

Apart from reliability, the so called AS Extreme variant I think its desperately needed to really set apart the Mac Pro, an M3 Extreme, going by the rumors and the increased RAM, should be able to deliver 512GB of RAM, and perhaps GPU perf that rivals dual dedicated GPU cards. But pricing wise, and perhaps also in terms of modularity, I agree the current Mac Pro is super niche and not very different from a Mac Studio, specially if thunderbolt 5 arrives in the next iteration.

 

[NY Guitarist]

At this time the Max Tech video seems like just a lot of speculation based on other people's speculation.

But, having said that, the lack of graphics card capability and shared bandwidth PCIe slots would indeed give me reasons to hold off buying a Mac Pro.

 

[Longplays]

At this time the Max Tech video seems like just a lot of speculation based on other people's speculation.

I hear they have a MR user account. Skimming off our our ideas for content.

A lot of YouTubers do that on Reddit too.

 

[Boil]

At this time the Max Tech video seems like just a lot of speculation based on other people's speculation.

That's nearly every MaxTech video...?

But, having said that, the lack of graphics card capability and shared bandwidth PCIe slots would indeed give me reasons to hold off buying a Mac Pro.

Y'all know the 2019 Intel Mac Pro also has shared bandwidth PCIe slots, yeah...?

 

[theluggage]

Where would Apple suddenly get a few dozen Gen4 PCIe lines from?

I think the video was a bit OTT in its shock and horror - its totally standard operating practice for PCIe PCs to have more PCIe slots than they could possibly supply independent PCIe lanes from the CPU to every pin. PCIe Mac Pros - even the 2019 - have always used a PCIe switch, and supplied the "Expansion slot utility" (https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210104) prioritise which slots get dedicated lanes vs. sharing bandwidth.

The Xeon-W in the 2019 MP had 64 lanes of PCIe from the processor - some of that had to go to storage, networking etc. and 16 lanes were always needed for a GPU in slot 1. That left 32 lanes shared betwee

You can work out from the picture of the utility in the link above that 16 lanes went to the first slot (which would always be a GPU and typically get 16 direct lines from the processor) leaving two "banks" of 16 lanes each to be shared between the remaining slots - well short of the 76 lanes needed to give full, unshared bandwidth to each slot.

So, looks like the 2023 has 16 lanes of PCIe 4 shared between two x16 and four x8 slots - may be a disappointment if you were dreaming of full bandwidth to all those slots, but a lot better than the 4 lanes worth of PCIe 3 (plus lag) shared between one x16 and two x8 that you'd get with, say, an Echo III external PCIe box.

However... yeah, that's really not a good return on your $3000 premium and really only equivalent to what you'd get on a bog standard tower PC, let alone a threadripper box.

So in other words 2nd hand information from an anonymous source.

The alternative being that the magic fairies have visited and created 32+ lanes of PCIe4 out of nowhere. The video (or rather the brief glimpse of the PCIe lane allocation) provides the most plausible explanation so far - its the unused storage interface from the second M2 Max die.

 

[NY Guitarist]

Y'all know the 2019 Intel Mac Pro also has shared bandwidth PCIe slots, yeah...?

I should have been more specific.

Considering the MP can't utilize videos card I had been hoping that the PCIe4 slots would have full bandwidth available for SSD in each slot, similar to how the Mac Studio Ultra has 6 Thunderbolt 3 controllers proving full speed for each TB3 port.

 

[tekboi]

I’m sure I’m stating what’s already been said 1000x on here but….

I was luckily (and unluckily depending on how you look at it) gifted a PowerMac G4 back in 2005 after my Dad lost his business in the hurricane and it was one of the few things to survive the flood.

THAT was a real workstation. It had ECC memory, dual processors. It FELT like a workstation.

This… I don’t know what this is. It’s basically a glorified Mac Studio with extra I/O expansino slots that will be able to utilize very little hardware out there. I don’t see they could possibly justify a $7000+ price tag. There is no way the chassis alone could justify such a markup. I feel like, at minimum, they could have just kept the price tag the same as before. For the money, I kinda expected it to have it’s own processor exclusively for that level of a device.

But maybe I’m missing something.

 

[Longplays]

I’m sure I’m stating what’s already been said 1000x on here but….

I was luckily (and unluckily depending on how you look at it) gifted a PowerMac G4 back in 2005 after my Dad lost his business in the hurricane and it was one of the few things to survive the flood.

THAT was a real workstation. It had ECC memory, dual processors. It FELT like a workstation.

This… I don’t know what this is. It’s basically a glorified Mac Studio with extra I/O expansino slots that will be able to utilize very little hardware out there. I don’t see they could possibly justify a $7000+ price tag. There is no way the chassis alone could justify such a markup. I feel like, at minimum, they could have just kept the price tag the same as before. For the money, I kinda expected it to have it’s own processor exclusively for that level of a device.

But maybe I’m missing something.

Users of specific use cases find better solutions over time.

Workload that the 2005 PowerMac G5 can do very well is easily handled by iPhones/iPads/MBAs/Macs mini/iMacs today.

The year your dad's PowerMac was being sold Steve Jobs decided to abandon the PowerPC chips to move to Intel because a G5 laptop was impossible. Apple knew way back then that the days of desktop workstations are numbered as Intel laptop chips were "good enough" for a G4 workflow.

How large is the market for "perfect" when "good enough" fits the workflow and is cheaper?

Here we are today... over 75% of PCs shipped annually are laptops and desktop workstations are less than 3%.

 

[Boil]

I , for one, welcome our new SoC overlords...!

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

The CPU is better than the best CPU of the previous model (over $12k) and the GPU has a metal score that beats the Radeon 6950 XT - and it has PCIe expansion

It’s not a scam. It’s typical Max Tech clickbait garbage. In about a weeks time they’ll be calling the best Mac ever made with the usual dramatic thumbnail and yelling.