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amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
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Devon, UK
Have you tried TGPro? It allows for full fan control, bypassing the SMC. I use it on all my desktops.

I've not, purely because I didn't want to unnecessarily pay for yet another bit of software, BUT if it does do everything I want I will purchase it as it's not expensive.

Can you confirm that it definitely lets you set fan RPMs below the SMC minimums (and turn them off completely)?

EDIT
It can't, its override is like the others, you can lock a fan speed, but not below SMC min and no 'off' option :(
But I bought it anyway as it appears to be an excellent piece of software :)
 
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Snow Tiger

macrumors 6502a
Dec 18, 2019
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Subscribed to this thread. Recently my 5,1 exhausted fan always noisy on lower fan speed because of rattling bearing, still running fine but rattle noise was unpleasant. Currently, I set intake fan running higher speed between 1200~1500 rpm to make rattle noise caused by exhausted fan swallowed by running air sound from intake fan. That sound are more pleasant, but that just temporary solution.


This is interesting. Thank you for pointing out. I have hackintosh mimicking Mac Pro inside 5,1 enclosure. That software are able to control generic sensor which is game changer for hackintosh, because hackintosh haven’t valid sensor name.

Examine the four black proprietary rubber grommets that secure the grey fan to the rest of the grey Exhaust fan assembly . These fan mounts / screws are ten years old now and they are beginning to denature and come loose . This might be the source of the noise .

If not , remove the Processor Cage and replace that fan assembly as the fan's motor has become damaged .
 
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KeesMacPro

macrumors 65816
Nov 7, 2019
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Very nice thread!
Actually I've been thinking about how to lower the fan noise levels for a while and this seems to be the adequate answer.
I don't know if its because of (2x) X5690 and/or the gtx780ti I use, or maybe the wear of the ballbearings, but in my case the PSU fan is definitely the most audible(under load)....
This might be the first I'd like to replace, but after a quick view,I have some questions:
-how did you get the original PSU fan out? Do I have to cut or drill away the 4 plastic Pivets I see on the side of the optical bay?
-you named a Noctua NF-B9 REDUX 12V 1600 as a possible replacement fan , but I believe the original is bigger (120mm), so how to avoid "leaks" around the Noctua?

Thanks for the shared info about your investigations , I'll follow this thread with interest!
Greetings
Kees
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
-how did you get the original PSU fan out? Do I have to cut or drill away the 4 plastic Pivets I see on the side of the optical bay?

With Care! You can poke them out with a small screw driver and re-use them. If you do damage one beyond use then other brands do fit, but not all other brands do.... Coolink ones do, Nanoxia do with a minor trim, don't know about others
[automerge]1588079710[/automerge]
you named a Noctua NF-B9 REDUX 12V 1600 as a possible replacement fan , but I believe the original is bigger (120mm), so how to avoid "leaks" around the Noctua?

The PSU fan is 92mm, only the processor cage fans are 120mm

EDIT - this is of course nonsense, the PSU fan is 120mm, and the reference to the B9 is a typo, it should say a Noctua NF-S12B REDUX 12V 1200

[automerge]1588079816[/automerge]
but in my case the PSU fan is definitely the most audible(under load)....

Is it noisy due to high RPM due to load, or is it noisy due to being old or damaged?

The PCI fan is the same close enough in spec to the PSU fan so you can compare how they sound at various RPMs
 
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KeesMacPro

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Nov 7, 2019
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Hello Amedias, thanks for your help!


With Care! You can poke them out with a small screw driver and re-use them. If you do damage one beyond use then other brands do fit, but not all other brands do.... Coolink ones do, Nanoxia do with a minor trim, don't know about others

Thanks a lot! I will poke one out and get some new ones before I start, to be on the safe side:)

The PSU fan is 92mm, only the processor cage fans are 120mm
I attached a photo... could it be that this one is different? MacPro 4,1 2009

Is it noisy due to high RPM due to load, or is it noisy due to being old or damaged?
The PCI fan is the same spec as the PSU fan so you can compare how they sound at various RPMs

The noise doesn't come from the airflow its more like a resonance which get amplified by the case...
I clean it regularly, so I doubt its because of dust...
I noticed the rpm depends more on the load than on the Temp it shows in MacFansControl.
At 600rpm its audible, but acceptable. Under load (around 1000rpm) its getting too loud for my taste and work(music)...
The PCI fan is a lot lower level...
 

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amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
No, you're absolutely right, sorry! The PSU fans are 120mm, I was muddled with the PCI fan! been a long day and I'surrounded by fans right now!

The PSU fan will vary in response to power draw and temp, if the machine drawing a lot of power it will ramp up, 1000RPM on that fan is noisy though, even when the fan is brand new.

If you're running a pair of 5690s and a big GPU then there's not much you can do under load conditions as it will be generating a lot fo heat. The Noctua will be quieter than the OEM fan but I'd be wary about running a Noctua with a max RPM of 1200 when the OEM fan often spins at 1000 RPM with your workload. You *may* run into a situation where the Noctua is maxed out under extreme load and you have insufficient cooling.

Only you can make that judgement call based on your aversion to risk and knowledge of your workload.
 
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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
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The 4,1 and I presume the 5,1 cMP's PSU fan is definitely 120mm.

This is my original 4,1 PSU fan ( AFB1212HH. 607-3434. DC 12v 0.50A ) which I replaced with a Noctua NF-A12x25.

( It's nice to have this fan as a backup. )

Mac Pro 4,1 fan size  - 120mm.jpg
 
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amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Still writing up results and testing, will put a small snapshot of permutations up later.

Tedious job though, lots of waiting for temps to stabilise before moving to new config, but it has allowed me to replace fans in another chassis, the pile of old Deltas is mounting :)
 

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KeesMacPro

macrumors 65816
Nov 7, 2019
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No, you're absolutely right, sorry! The PSU fans are 120mm, I was muddled with the PCI fan! been a long day and I'surrounded by fans right now!

The PSU fan will vary in response to power draw and temp, if the machine drawing a lot of power it will ramp up, 1000RPM on that fan is noisy though, even when the fan is brand new.

If you're running a pair of 5690s and a big GPU then there's not much you can do under load conditions as it will be generating a lot fo heat. The Noctua will be quieter than the OEM fan but I'd be wary about running a Noctua with a max RPM of 1200 when the OEM fan often spins at 1000 RPM with your workload. You *may* run into a situation where the Noctua is maxed out under extreme load and you have insufficient cooling.

Only you can make that judgement call based on your aversion to risk and knowledge of your workload.

What a luxury, to be surrounded by fans:)

Good to know the way the PSU fan responds ,thanks!

Under normal circumstances (load working with music production ) luckily the RPM stays between 600 and 750rpm , only when the GPU is consuming a lot (games) the rpm can rise to 1000...
The gtx780ti is known for its power consumption, maybe I'd look for an alternative in the future... and go for the Noctua in the meantime
 
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hwojtek

macrumors 68020
Jan 26, 2008
2,274
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Poznan, Poland
Can you confirm that it definitely lets you set fan RPMs below the SMC minimums (and turn them off completely)?

You are right - the SMC minimum is the minimum, not below. I haven't tried and went a bit too far.

But I bought it anyway as it appears to be an excellent piece of software :)

I've been recently passing emails with Matt from Tunabelly with some ideas regarding the oncoming TG Pro 3 (perhaps later this year) and I will point him to this thread for more.

Just a quick question while I'm at it - the PCI fan in cMP4/5,1. Mine is stuck at 0 and doesn't rotate at all. SMC resets, manual kickstarts, setting speed to max - do not help. From your experience, is it the fan that died or any controller that might be? If I bought the Noctua like yours and wired it like you did, how hard is it to actually fix the fan in place of the original PCI fan?
 
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amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Just a quick question while I'm at it - the PCI fan in cMP4/5,1. Mine is stuck at 0 and doesn't rotate at all. SMC resets, manual kickstarts, setting speed to max - do not help. From your experience, is it the fan that died or any controller that might be? If I bought the Noctua like yours and wired it like you did, how hard is it to actually fix the fan in place of the original PCI fan?

That's unlucky, that's the hardest fan to re-wire and the most awkward to replace if you don't use the Apple OEM part!

I couldn't comment on the odds of it being dead fan or issue on the board as I have no idea of the failure rates.
If it happened to me I'd just plug another fan in from another Mac Pro to test but appreciate you might not have another to hand

If you want to replace that fan then you have three options.

1. Buy a complete Apple OEM replacement unit in the grey casing that also forms the PCI slot support (for long cards) and the PCI locking mechanism. It's then just two screws and a tug to replace the unit complete.

2. Remove the unit, and disassemble it (you will swear a bit), then cut off the plug and reattach it to a replacement fan (you may swear a bit more), the reassemble the fan into the casing unit (you will definitely swear) and refit.

3. Fashion some kind of support bracket yourself and refit (you may or may not swear depending on your DIY skills)

On the other hand, I am one of those people that barely has a need for a GPU so all but one of mine run low power passively cooled GPUs and I often turn off or remove the PCI anyway with no issues, but if you have a lot in that compartment or a big GPU that's not a good idea.
 
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amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Preliminary results from Chassis 2, all Single tray permutations tested.

I'll leave you guys to interpret but it's interesting which fans and speeds have most impact under different conditions, and shows just how far you can push against the defaults.

Will keep updating, there's a fair bit of data but good t keep a record :)

EDIT - updated the attachment, now includes two different Dual Tray permutations on all 3 Chassis.
Just got the Single Tray tests on Chassis 1 and 3 to complete now
 

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amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Added some more results to the attachment above.

One thing I can say with certainty is that replacing the OEM fans, even if you leave all fan control on SMC automatic settings is definitely quieter and cooling performance the same (as long as you choose appropriate fans)

You can also see though there is scope for more noise reduction with custom fan profiles using lower RPMs or stopping some fans when not needed.
 

ctrlzone

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2017
303
251
i have a tip for the fan damper rivets in the CPU heatsink
the rubber is usually brittle and hardened, this increases Noise and the removal without damaging them is quite difficult.

After placing the Heatsink upside down on the table i applied a tiny drip of sewing machine Oil on them.
then with a blunt stick i wiggled with patience and caution, this way the oil flows around em, the rubber becomes soft again, allowing to turn the rivet slowly.

With this the removal is super easy.
 

KeesMacPro

macrumors 65816
Nov 7, 2019
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I've been reading and comparing different Noctua fans and noticed a few things:
The Noctua NF-A 12x25 FLX and NF-A 12x25 ULN appear to be mechanically identical, the difference is the RPM and noise levels.
-The noise level seems to be equivalent to the RPM, so the FLX could be as silent as the ULN(running at the same speed), but with a higher RPM limit, which could be saver under extreme conditions.
-The m3/h seems to be proportional to the RPM as well.
So with the FLX version for the PSU, Intake and Exhaust you might have a higher RPM limit (2000 vs. 1200)...
I hope to find the time soon to buy one and try it...

Other thing I'm wondering:
Besides the possible damage caused by heat,
what will happen when the SMC tries to push the (replacement) fan beyond the max. RPM?
Will it just run at max RPM or would the OS "go crazy"?
Maybe you already tested that but I couldn't find it in your test results .

EDIT: comparing NF-S12B vs NF-A12x25ULN: the NF-S blows about 2x the amount of air, but is 6dB louder(both RPM1200 max).
To the human ear a difference of 6dB is like twice as loud/halve as loud.
So for extreme silent operating the NF-A12x25ULN is the best choice I think, presuming lightweight load...
The NF-S12B is the most efficient.
The NF-A12x25FLX might be the best choice for heavier loads.
 

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hwojtek

macrumors 68020
Jan 26, 2008
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Poznan, Poland
what will happen when the SMC tries to push the (replacement) fan beyond the max. RPM?

There are people more experienced in this area than me here, but I think it is safe to assume that it will just report an RPM lower than expected condition to the SMC and run it at the maximum hardware speed until the temperature drops. Here's kudos to the TGPro, which will display a fan error if the actual fan RPM varies significantly from target RPM requested by SMC.
 

KeesMacPro

macrumors 65816
Nov 7, 2019
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thx hwojtek!
My English is a bit limited, so one frase I don't understand:
"here's kudos to the TGPRo"
What does that mean?
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
This is why it pays to pay very careful attention to fan specs!
Many manufacturers (not just Noctua) sell some very similar fans under different models numbers.
Some of the Noctua (and Coolink) non-PWM fans are they exact same mechanical models as their PWM version but without the control, other times the non-PWM model is an artificially hobbled version locked at lower RPM.

With Noctua their fans are split into different ranges depending whether they are flow or pressure optimised, or a blend (A, S and P models) so don't forget to take that into account and that noise and performance will not vary in the same way between them.

ie: a pressure optimised fan with lower CFM can work better in some situations than a higher CFM model, and vice versa!

You also have to think about how airflow balances between different types and sizes of fans in different places
An interesting place where this kind of thing becomes relevant is in the CPU compartment of a Mac Pro when you start turning off individual fans or running them at very low RPM you can get some unexpected results! For example see below setup where I've been testing on a single CPU MP to tune an 'idle' profile using values below SMC minimums:

INTAKE: 400RPM
EXHAUST: 400RPM
BOOST: 600RPM

^gives terrible performance with the CPU and NB especially getting quite warm quite quickly
Instinct suggests increasing the BOOST fan will help as you'll be pulling more air over the NB and CPU> I tried bumping the BOOST up to 700, and then 800 RPM, but actually lowering the BOOST RPM and a tiny increase on INTAKE and EXHAUST gave lower temps and less noise

INTAKE: 420RPM
EXHAUST: 420RPM
BOOST: 450RPM

^ performs better as there's a better balance between the airflow of the compartment and the amount being drawn through the heatsink. If you take the INTAKE and EXHAUST too high then the BOOST is left underpowered and less air goes through the heatsink. If you take the BOOST too high in isolation then it is trying to draw air in from the front that just isn't available and you're better turning the INTAKE off!

The relationship isn't linear as RPMs increase either as the smaller fans have to spin at faster RPM to keep up with a modest increase in the bigger ones. You need to have the right balance of getting air into the compartment, through the heatinks and out of the compartment. Too far the wrong way in either case can result in the air rushing through the compartment but not getting enough through the heatsinks, or the heatsink fans causing a mini vacuum behind the INTAKE and encountering a wall at the EXHAUST.


Other thing I'm wondering:
Besides the possible damage caused by heat,
what will happen when the SMC tries to push the (replacement) fan beyond the max. RPM?
Will it just run at max RPM or would the OS "go crazy"?
Maybe you already tested that but I couldn't find it in your test results .

Nothing bad happens, the fan reaches max RPM and will not increase further. The SMC is still receiving a true tach reading so knows the RPM, there's no 'misreporting' or anything, and the SMC is clever enough to increase the RPM of other fans (if there are any) to compensate as it uses temp readings and RPM to make dynamic changes, rather than just 'set' voltages or RPMs for various temps.

That's also how it can cope with CPUs with differing TDP and TJmax values. It will let CPUs with higher temp tolerances get hotter rather than simply saying X deg = max fans. The default SMC profile is also more than willing to take the CPU right up to just below it's thermal limit and run it there hovering just the right side of thermal throttle which is why many people already run modified fan curves as the Apple default is quite relaxed.

So basically it works as intended, the SMC will do what it can to keep things in check using the fans it has available and their RPMs. What my testing has found is that it that the Apple OEM fans are overspecced for most cases and unless you're running a machine at full load constantly, in horrible ambient conditions you're unlikely to need the full capability of the Delta fans and quieter replacements are an option. What fans you can get away with will be down to your configuration, environment and use case.

The only tests I had to abort were where the NB was getting too hot and the fans were unable to increase speed (mostly on tests where I'd locked them!). As you can see from the results it's actually very hard to overheat a Mac Pro, you have to really really try!
[automerge]1588346557[/automerge]

I've now spent a bit of time with this software since purchasing it the other day. I have to say I think it is the best option out there. Better than iStat Menus, Macs Fan Control and smc Fan control for sure.
It can be more complicated to set up if you want a truly optimised configuration but it is more configurable than the others.

It doesn't quite do everything I wanted, but pretty damn close, and would be money well spent for anyone looking at fan control software with a GUI and a lot of flexibility.

I've also found that you can trick it to run speeds below SMC default ;-)

If you manually set the fan minimum values in the SMC before you run TGP pro (or smcFan Control/macs Fan Control) then they will discover your new values upon launch and use those new minimums, so if you want to have access to speeds below SMC defaults AND control with a GUI it is possible.

My test machine is now happily running my own home-brewed fan control via a Systemd service under Linux and is configured to run very low fixed RPMs (and some fans OFF) for idle states until temp threshold reached, then it flips to a hybrid fixed/auto profile which works very well for light load, before moving onto 'SMC Auto' if things start getting ever warmer, and then onto a more aggressive cooling profile when under very heavy load.

This results in a machine that spends 90% of it's time in a VERY quiet state, and is still quieter than OEM when loaded :D
 
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amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
I've got some more testing to do this weekend, and have another Dual Tray arriving early next week too so will try some more permutations :)
 
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KeesMacPro

macrumors 65816
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wow...

This is fascinating!
I admire you for the time and effort you're putting in this topic !

A few things I'm beginning to understand, one of them: its not that simple:)
by the way: now I understand how you managed to set rpm below 600.
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
its not that simple

Most things never are!

now I understand how you managed to set rpm below 600

On Linux the 'applesmc' module is great, dead easy to read and write values with as all the values are human readable
On Mac OS it's mildly more annoying, the open source smc project has a good binary you can use for interaction, reading and setting values is easy enough but they're not human readable by default so needs a little more care/preprep
 
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p11hlf

macrumors member
Jul 27, 2018
69
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Southampton UK
The 4,1 and I presume the 5,1 cMP's PSU fan is definitely 120mm.

This is my original 4,1 PSU fan ( AFB1212HH. 607-3434. DC 12v 0.50A ) which I replaced with a Noctua NF-A12x25.

( It's nice to have this fan as a backup. )

View attachment 910121

Did this fan work ok for you? I have the 4pin version of the Noctua NF-A12x25.

Can you do a pin swap on a 4 pin fan?
 

MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,815
691
Japan
Did this fan work ok for you? I have the 4pin version of the Noctua NF-A12x25.

Can you do a pin swap on a 4 pin fan?
Yes, it works and is currently running.

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