MP 1,1-5,1 Mac Pro 4,1 Running Leopard forever - Operation Norge

[MrCheeto]

So I've been slowly upgrading a G3 B&W with similar goals to yours, to make a dual boot OS 9 / 10.4 machine.

It's an inspiration to see someone so dedicated to using an old OS, and making it shine. Honestly the whole Classic Mac Pro forum is inspiring to see the defiance and innovation going on, but I haven't seen many projects as unique as yours. 👍

Hey thanks!

I remember my B&W. It had the Sonnet upgrade CPU. Can't remember if it was a G4 or a faster G3.

I also have a goal to have a machine for each major OS and architecture. Quadra 610 for 68K and classic System OS, something for OS 9, another PPC for 10.4 and Sorbet Leopard, my dedicated Leopard machine and my modern M1 Max. I say another PPC because I can't think of a PPC near the end of the line (2005) that could run Leopard AND OS 9. I want maximum PPC performance on one hand, and OS 9 compatibility on the other.

I would say that you shouldn't be surprised by how dedicated some of these Apple heads are, but even I've been surprised at how much they are willing to help and share. Look in the PowerPC category and see that somebody is helping to fix a long-dead app so that we can open unsupported RAW files on old hardware and systems. "RAW updates for Leopard".

Fanatics have always been crazy. They've been pushing Pismo's and Clamshells and 68k's uphill in a cart with two broken wheels for decades now just to say that they did it. Maybe that's why I'm doing some of my projects Though, as said many times, wanting to stick to Intel Leopard is derided at every opportunity, yet the same people say nothing when somebody wants to use 10.0, 10.3, 10.4, System 7 etc. on hardware that could run a later version. In time, maybe it will be more accepted. Repeatedly saying "just go to 10.6, it's better in every way" is no different than saying to throw out the PowerMac G5 and get a Pro.

I'll be tuning into your project to follow as well. Have you tried Sorbet Leopard on the G4/5? I keep hearing only good things about it. Sure wish we had that back around 2007 when people were still trying to make their PB G4 last another year while it simply melted when loading Flash Player.

Update: a great number of boxes have arrived in the post

 

[MacFoxG4]

I find this project to be very interesting. I like Leopard also. I have Sorbet Leopard on my G5 and G4 Power Macs and vanilla Leopard on my late 2009 Mini. I love the 3D dock and I just overall prefer Leopard's UI over Tiger's.

I also have a goal to have a machine for each major OS and architecture. Quadra 610 for 68K and classic System OS, something for OS 9, another PPC for 10.4 and Sorbet Leopard, my dedicated Leopard machine and my modern M1 Max. I say another PPC because I can't think of a PPC near the end of the line (2005) that could run Leopard AND OS 9. I want maximum PPC performance on one hand, and OS 9 compatibility on the other.

A big issue I have had with having Leopard and OS 9 on the same Mac, is that I am forced to choose between Core Image in Leopard and 2D/3D acceleration in OS 9. There is no GPU that does both. Depending on what you are doing in Leopard, the lack of a Core Image capable GPU may not be that big of a deal. I guess the same could be said for OS 9 and 2D/3D acceleration, though I personally think OS 9 without 2D/3D acceleration was way worse than Leopard without a Core Image capable GPU. For example, you can't play DVDs in OS 9 without 2D/3D acceleration, but you can play DVDs in Leopard without a CI-capable card (though I found out that the non-CI card has to have at least 64 MB of VRAM or else Leopard's DVD player will throw up errors and refuse to play anything).

You would probably want either a 2002 MDD or an older G4 tower with an accelerator like I have if you want a powerful Mac that can do both OS 9 and Leopard. Due to the 2D/3D acceleration vs CI problem though, I ended up buying a PM G5 that I use for my PPC Leopard needs and equipping my G4 with the Radeon 9000 and leaning into it's OS 9 capabilities while still keeping Leopard on there also.

 

[mectojic]

You would probably want either a 2002 MDD or an older G4 tower with an accelerator like I have if you want a powerful Mac that can do both OS 9 and Leopard. Due to the 2D/3D acceleration vs CI problem though, I ended up buying a PM G5 that I use for my PPC Leopard needs and equipping my G4 with the Radeon 9000 and leaning into it's OS 9 capabilities while still keeping Leopard on there also.

That's a fair point. Some people want ultimate power. I'm not a power user – when I am it's exclusively on more modern Macs. Leopard / 2010 Mac Pro is probably the best of both worlds, power and vintage.

I chose the G3 B&W because it runs 10.4 and OS 9 well, and I like the design. I have a Radeon 9200 PCI Mac Edition, which works in OS X, but always freezes when booting into OS 9. No idea how to solve that. I don't care about 10.5 or Sorbet on this one, it will never perform it well, even with G4 upgrades. Tiger is nice enough for me.

I don't have a thing against Leopard, I just have always used Snow Leopard or Tiger. I honestly couldn't tell the difference between 10.5 and 10.6, except for the speed gains (which were very noticeable when I upgraded an old Intel MacBook).

 

[MrCheeto]

I don't care about 10.5 or Sorbet on this one, it will never perform it well, even with G4 upgrades.

Many have said that Sorbet performs better than Tiger. But there are many that just LIKE Tiger for what it is, not relative to what is before and after.

I admit, I really really did enjoy using Tiger whenever I could.

You would probably want either a 2002 MDD

Ooooooh no no. I believe I have a thread in here where I replaced an MDD power supply with a standard ATX etc. I sold it and don't miss the noise, useless AGP graphics slot, and clunkiness. Damn did it look good, though.

This information will also be very useful. It's just strengthening my philosophy that I should have one OS 9 machine and a different 10.4/Sorbet machine. I'd sure like to try a G5 but I constantly hear nothing but headaches, as Apple probably knew PPC was headed out and the heat just couldn't be managed. I've only ever had short experience with G5's when doing repair, never got to live on one. If I have to have a 10.4/Sorbet machine, I think that would be the peak. Otherwise, sure I'd go for an A1138/A1139 PowerBook.

Since there seems to be more interest, I will be certain to make and upload a video detailing the project in detail.

 

[mectojic]

Many have said that Sorbet performs better than Tiger. But there are many that just LIKE Tiger for what it is, not relative to what is before and after.

Meh. I like to use a default OS, always. I never like mods, whether it's Gameboy case mods, G4 case mods or a modded OS. Still, if Sorbet's being enjoyed by people, then that's great for them.

Regarding your OS 9 / 10.4 machine. Not sure how powerful you wanted, obviously the MDD is too loud. If you wanted both in the package, I'd say the best were a CPU-upgraded Gig E G4. Power consumption and noise is good.

 

[mectojic]

Actually, if you want a purely OS X 10.4 machine (without Sorbet), perhaps your best option is a Mac Pro 1,1 or 2,1!

 

[Amethyst1]

Actually, if you want a purely OS X 10.4 machine (without Sorbet), perhaps your best option is a Mac Pro 1,1 or 2,1!

Or even a MacPro3,1 with the ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT!

 

[MrCheeto]

Actually, if you want a purely OS X 10.4 machine (without Sorbet), perhaps your best option is a Mac Pro 1,1 or 2,1!

I think I found my OS 9 machine...and 10.4 and Sorbet machine! I've just seen how Sorbet performs without an OpenGL card and I'm pretty sold. I'm going to use a G4 Mini! I can't wait to make a video detailing that effort too.

Back to the topic.

Again, full disclosure, the niggles that I eschew are so so microscopic that I will not be able to even describe them until I start toying with 10.6 again.

So I'm using Leopard and High Sierra and I can actually remember one thing that appeared since Snow Leopard.

When copying multiple files, or moving them, I get this crappy dialog.

When in file-system history has anybody ever wanted to keep both?! When somebody wants to "zipper" two folders (combining both into a single folder, ensuring that all files are included and none are duplicated), they would have to manually select each file and be sure the name is not already used!

I have no option to "skip" the similar files. Well...actually I do. Sometimes. When? I don't know. I tried repeating the issue to screen shot this dialog box and the second time, I actually did get the "skip" option! No thanks.

It performs the way I want it to in Leopard. If I click "Don't Replace" it will skip the similar files.

I know how insignificant it sounds, but multiply a problem this small by so many applications, functions, operations and hours of use and the frustration builds.

Edit: and just while using Safari, two more things that I've found broken since 2009.

1. History.
In Leopard, I remember being able to cover-flow through my history. It was an amazingly efficient way to browse back to things that I found hard to remember but could visualize. I have never been able to get around my history faster.

Not only has this function been removed, but history doesn't actually catch every site I visit. If I Google something, then browse ten of the results, then return to the Google results page, the history may have only recorded three or so of the pages I opened and fully loaded. Besides just Googling, I find that I can open links in new tabs, or drill down, or go down a rabbit-hole like Wikipedia and it will just NOT record every single site. It keeps skipping some.

2. Keyboard shortcuts.
Normal function of ⌥⌘N is to open a new window in Safari.

However, if I'm using Safari full-screen (such as I am in Catalina), and I press ⌥⌘N, nothing happens. I repeatedly press the combo and nothing happens. This always lead me to second-guess myself, so I'd move my cursor to the top to reveal the Menu bar, click File, and see that, indeed, the command to open a new window is ⌥⌘N. So I'd move my cursor away from the Menu bar, it would disappear, and then the command would work!

Consistently, every time, the command fails to work until I double-check the combination via the File Menu.

It's been this way for at least 10-years now. Apple, please fix this crap. Nothing should ever be broken for this long, no excuses.

 

[MrCheeto]

Upgrades

Don't get too excited. It's pretty minor stuff, all officially supported etc.

I would say that this photo processing workflow was 100% Leopard, but I need to work out the ExFAT support. I understand it's never officially supported by 10.5, but I hear tell that there are ways. That's my next hurdle.

Camera: Sony A7II
Lens: Tamron 28-80mm 27A
Software: Aperture 3 on 10.5 Leopard

 

[Stex]

Damn. There's only one way to find out. If I really have to be the first person dedicated enough to find out if Leopard will boot to Westmere CPU's on Apple hardware, I'd be pretty disappointed in the tweakers here. Actually, would that canonize me as an official Tweaker?

Absolutely, you shall be canonized as the official (anti-Snow) Leopard Westmere Tweaker Master!!! Congrats on the project!

 

[MrCheeto]

Progress is slow but I have been enjoying a few edits in Aperture in Leopard on my Mac Pro! I even found two of the three displays I will be using.

I cannot recommend these enough. HP z27n (ORIGINAL, not the G2 or G3 etc). Beautiful color. Super bright. Crisp contrast. Nice and simple!

Here's my plan. I want to use the two main displays as shown. I will also have a 46" display on the farthest wall behind me. When I want to preview the image in actual print-size, I send the image to the 46" display. The 46" will pivot and is capable of displaying a full one-sheet print (24x36). This will allow me to also try out frames and mattes before ever hitting print.

I need my two main displays to be 2560 while the 46" must be 3840.

Can I achieve this with the GT120 and Radeon HD4870?

Well...

Yes!

I tested with a third 4K display and it works! So I'm running the two 27" displays at 2560@60hz from the ATi card and the 4K display from the GT120 at 3840@30hz.

This machine really has been a dream come true and I waited well over a decade to get this experience.

More updates will come as things get exciting.

For now, I've started with my newest score: a Mac Mini G4 1.5ghz!

 

[MrCheeto]

Back to say that a lot of the enjoyment I'm getting from my machine is thanks to all of you that find time to reply here and take personal interests in people's projects. I really can't wait to give a thorough overview and demonstration in a video when everything is churning along.

Here's the few Leopard challenges that remain.

1. Browsers. I don't have to have a browser on this machine but it would sure help. I have the M1's that I can place nearby for web stuff but it's so much easier to have a browser open in another Space (remember those?). I am running Sorbet Leopard on my G4 Mini and it somehow comes with a later version of Safari that properly loads a lot of modern sites and doesn't have as many HTTPS issues as the latest official browser for Leopard. I've read the Sorbet thread but can't really figure how to get a more modern version of Safari on Intel Leopard. Thoughts?

I'd also settle for another full-featured browser so long as it has the latest compliance with web standards and no HTTPS certificate issues.

2. exFAT. I have exFAT SD cards and have to be able to open them in Leopard. I could have sworn this was something I could do back in my 10.5 days but whatever tool it is I have lost track.

3. RAW support. I'm using modern cameras and just don't know if there's any way to sort of pull a plugin from another OS or App and drop it into something within Leopard. Or a RAW converter in Leopard. I'm using RPP for now and it works but there seem to be a few tiny bugs when working with Aperture 3.

4. TRIM. Amethyst1 suggested dual-booting to a later OS since it will TRIM across the whole disk. I currently Dual Boot High Sierra but I'd much rather be able to keep only one bootable partition and let Leopard solve everything. Does booting into Single User and running fsck -fy have a similar effect? What about a script to write all 1's or 0's to empty space to basically do the same thing as TRIM?

I think, based on Amethyst's suggestion, that High Sierra is keeping things clean. The disk is still ridiculously fast. That leads to my final bother.

5. Graphics performance. I'm using the ATi 4870 for all of my work. It still seems to sort of chug in the UI effects. It also doesn't really handle Aperture 3 as seamlessly as I'd expect a "pro" computer running contemporaneous apps. Referring back to issue 3, I'm having to work with TIFF's in Aperture and they tend to be about 170MB each. I have the ATi card, over 40GB RAM, two four-cour 2.66ghz Xeons. What is missing?

To give an example: I'm working with a large TIFF. I use the Retouch tool to remove the specks of dust. I can click along and do about two-spots per-second, and by the time I have finished selecting about 10-12 spots of dust, it is still updating the image to the repaired results.

Anything helps although... I'm feeling very hopeful about z970's latest project that seems to be Intel compatible... Any word on that?

Edit: He JUST updated the Shuriken page. Unfortunately for Leopard fans it is actually a "sorbet" for Tiger.

 

[Amethyst1]

1. Browsers. [...] I am running Sorbet Leopard on my G4 Mini and it somehow comes with a later version of Safari that properly loads a lot of modern sites and doesn't have as many HTTPS issues as the latest official browser for Leopard. I've read the Sorbet thread but can't really figure how to get a more modern version of Safari on Intel Leopard. Thoughts?

See e.g. #319 and #1,060. AFAICS, Sorbet's "Safari" is actually Leopard WebKit 604 with updated security certificates 'n' stuff. So, you need to have a go at compiling Leopard WebKit for Intel. And there's also TenFourFox-Intel.

2. exFAT. I have exFAT SD cards and have to be able to open them in Leopard. I could have sworn this was something I could do back in my 10.5 days but whatever tool it is I have lost track.

https://github.com/relan/exfat

4. TRIM. Amethyst1 suggested dual-booting to a later OS since it will TRIM across the whole disk. I currently Dual Boot High Sierra but I'd much rather be able to keep only one bootable partition and let Leopard solve everything. Does booting into Single User and running fsck -fy have a similar effect? What about a script to write all 1's or 0's to empty space to basically do the same thing as TRIM?

According to #15, fsck -fy in Single User Mode does the trick. I don't know whether this requires TRIM to be supported by OS X and to be enabled. The post also contains info on the SM951-AHCI's TRIM behaviour.

 

[MrCheeto]

@Amethyst1 wow dude that’s a lot of work you did tracking this down.

Never thought to check for UNIX utilities so this is news to me! I still need to learn to compile etc. for such UNIX-based apps but will give it a try. As much as I’ve learned to use bash scripts and took on coding in C# to expand my influence at work I still can’t figure this compiler stuff out. In time. Great resource.

I was pretty sure TenFourFox was being abandoned but hey as long as it’s newer than Leopard’s last version of Safari.

I did find the thread you referred to about TRIM. I have yet to try it. I would wonder how I’d even know if TRIM was successful even after running it. Regardless, that is the next step.

Derailing my own progress I’ve managed to acquire yet another Mac. I don’t know how I keep going down this road. I was offered a G5 7,2 and a 23” Cinema HD display (ADC) for $40. How could I say no? The collection grows 😞

 

[Amethyst1]

Never thought to check for UNIX utilities so this is news to me!

Well, OS X is UNIX. This more comprehensive exFAT guide is also worth checking out. MacFUSE 3.11.2 (which this relies on) is available for Leopard on Intel. The rest is compiled from source AFAICS so it shouldn't™ matter whether you're on Intel or PowerPC.

I was pretty sure TenFourFox was being abandoned but hey as long as it’s newer than Leopard’s last version of Safari.

Its development has been wound down and that Intel version is an unloved stepchild, to say the least. So YMMV. Maybe you should look into compiling your own, more modern TenFourFox for Intel...

I did find the thread you referred to about TRIM. I have yet to try it. I would wonder how I’d even know if TRIM was successful even after running it.

Usually, you force-TRIM when you notice the SSD has become (very) slow. If it's successful, performance will improve noticeably.

Derailing my own progress I’ve managed to acquire yet another Mac. I don’t know how I keep going down this road. I was offered a G5 7,2 and a 23” Cinema HD display (ADC) for $40. How could I say no? The collection grows 😞

These things just... happen. Congrats on the 23", that is a thing of beauty (I used to own three).

 

[MrCheeto]

Well it just mishappened again. $40 got me an 11,2 2.5Ghz DC PowerMac G5 and a beautifully kept aluminum Apple display. I can feel the performance boost from the 2.0 PCIx already.

I started this thread while owning zero PPC Macs and now have four. Does it ever end 😮‍💨

I've had to pause the Mac Pro project but here's where the build is rewarding so far. Hearing my coworkers etc. complain about Adobe CC and M1 compatibility and this and that changing or updating or breaking makes me smile when I get behind the wheel of this rig and everything just...works. It works seamlessly, it works quickly and it works every time. I have missed zero deadlines for photo-developing nor had any stress or delays since beginning this effort. It is and continues to be truly well worth it. Still in development but the latest is a desk I made and that I found a good candidate for a third display on the far wall for life-size image previews!

Nevermind the old Apple display on the floor. I just haven't found a home for it yet.

 

[mectojic]

I've had to pause the Mac Pro project but here's where the build is rewarding so far. Hearing my coworkers etc. complain about Adobe CC and M1 compatibility and this and that changing or updating or breaking makes me smile when I get behind the wheel of this rig and everything just...works. It works seamlessly, it works quickly and it works every time.

So nice to her stories like this! You can peacefully laugh when you read the modern parts lf these forums, with people talking about software subscription fees, constantly broken/buggy updates, and expensive hardware.
Keep updating on how you are using your Leopard Mac Pro, I'm really interested to hear. Do you have a workable web browser?

 

[MrCheeto]

Do you have a workable web browser?

It is really telling to watch how frustrating all of the modern "solutions" are just headaches with the promise that they'll be fixed in the next patch, or the next one, OK for sure the next one...

I haven't found a good browser. I wish I could get the Webkit mod that's often used in PPC Leopard over to my Intel machine. It seems to work better than the last official version of Safari, which barely renders anything and can't even handle a Google image search.

 

[MrCheeto]

I think development is over for this app but I'm at least able to reply to you within Leopard on my Mac Pro. Formatting (HTML) doesn't always display great. I don't know how this browser is identified on the net either. YouTube... IDK, it's a slideshow but indeed has most of the features you expect from modern YouTube.

Sucks to say but you're better off running Leopard on PPC. Nobody cares about Intel Leopard because everything is solved with "Just upgrade". Meh. Give this a try. It's the 2021 version which I think is the last given the version name is the reddit-teir line "so long...".

 

[mectojic]

I think development is over for this app but I'm at least able to reply to you within Leopard on my Mac Pro. Formatting (HTML) doesn't always display great. I don't know how this browser is identified on the net either. YouTube... IDK, it's a slideshow but indeed has most of the features you expect from modern YouTube.

Sucks to say but you're better off running Leopard on PPC. Nobody cares about Intel Leopard because everything is solved with "Just upgrade". Meh. Give this a try. It's the 2021 version which I think is the last given the version name is the reddit-teir line "so long...".

Isn't there an Intel build of TenFourFox? Sadly Interweb Intel is 10.6.8+. Perhaps @wicknix might consider an Intel Tiger/Leopard build, for those with that niche preference?

Otherwise you could try InterwebPPC too. It's newer.

 

[MrCheeto]

I'll try practically anything I can find. The TFF I posted is the Intel build.

 

[MrCheeto]

Phew. Where to even start.

Between starting this search and now there has been so much going on. Besides moving house, I've acquired or revived oh so many Macs. The count in the house is in the teens and I'm trying to stop it now and let it go back down.

I've been bouncing from project to project but it's really rolling along. I am currently regularly able to work and game in these systems and am refining the setups using things like display or km switches and custom desks etc. I'm sussing out compatibility, crossover ability, platform bridging etc. as well as comparing performance.

The systems I'm focused on are:
Quadra 610 Running System 7 and OS 8.1
Mac Mini G4 Running OS 9.2.2 and Tiger and emulating Win 9x.
PowerMac G5 Running Leopard.
Mac Pro 4,1 Running Leopard and Windows 7.

At this point I'm also trying to figure what the point of the G5 is. I understand there is "G5 specific code" but...where? I doubt there is anything I'm going to need that will execute on the G5 and nothing else. Still uncertain but I may trim the G5's from my collection if I don't find their niche.

I'm really looking forward to sharing everything I've gathered and learned during this one major endeavor. It's been quite the ride and I've obsessively worked to weigh the options and even create my own as well to make things seamless, integrated, and refined. Some peripherals etc. involve custom mods and such and it's going to be great to dive in and show and tell.

Great so far 👍

 

[mectojic]

At this point I'm also trying to figure what the point of the G5 is. I understand there is "G5 specific code" but...where? I doubt there is anything I'm going to need that will execute on the G5 and nothing else. Still uncertain but I may trim the G5's from my collection if I don't find their niche.

The main utility of your G5, for now, is to benchmark it against your Intel Leopard. G5 has the advantage of native PPC, as well as Sorbet, so the contest may be closer than it seems.

 

[MrCheeto]

The Mac Pro (currently 2.26ghz 8-core) absolutely stomps the 2.5ghz DC G5 at anything and everything they are capable of doing. This includes PowerPC applications on the Mac Pro. The G5 also has all of the Sorbet stuff so I'm guessing it's as optimized as it can practically get.

Remember I have the G4 Mini for my PowerPC needs. I'll try to benchmark anything and everything that I use on both the G5 and Pro but if there isn't anything the G5 can do that the G4 and Intel can't then I don't see the need for more clutter.

 

[mateo14]

Hey thanks!

I remember my B&W. It had the Sonnet upgrade CPU. Can't remember if it was a G4 or a faster G3.

I also have a goal to have a machine for each major OS and architecture. Quadra 610 for 68K and classic System OS, something for OS 9, another PPC for 10.4 and Sorbet Leopard, my dedicated Leopard machine and my modern M1 Max. I say another PPC because I can't think of a PPC near the end of the line (2005) that could run Leopard AND OS 9. I want maximum PPC performance on one hand, and OS 9 compatibility on the other.

I would say that you shouldn't be surprised by how dedicated some of these Apple heads are, but even I've been surprised at how much they are willing to help and share. Look in the PowerPC category and see that somebody is helping to fix a long-dead app so that we can open unsupported RAW files on old hardware and systems. "RAW updates for Leopard".

Fanatics have always been crazy. They've been pushing Pismo's and Clamshells and 68k's uphill in a cart with two broken wheels for decades now just to say that they did it. Maybe that's why I'm doing some of my projects Though, as said many times, wanting to stick to Intel Leopard is derided at every opportunity, yet the same people say nothing when somebody wants to use 10.0, 10.3, 10.4, System 7 etc. on hardware that could run a later version. In time, maybe it will be more accepted. Repeatedly saying "just go to 10.6, it's better in every way" is no different than saying to throw out the PowerMac G5 and get a Pro.

I'll be tuning into your project to follow as well. Have you tried Sorbet Leopard on the G4/5? I keep hearing only good things about it. Sure wish we had that back around 2007 when people were still trying to make their PB G4 last another year while it simply melted when loading Flash Player.

Update: a great number of boxes have arrived in the post

System 7 on Quadra 610?

I think that you should consider installing A/UX 3.1 (Apple Unix - System 7.0.1) on this computer, which is a much better choice.