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avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,227
1,074
Go check these guys out:

https://www.lunaranimation.com/lunar-blog/2021/03/02/mac-pro-a-year-in-the-studio

There are the animation studio that handled the closing credits for Jumanji 2, but more importantly for the point of my example, they are the guys who handled the Disney+/Hulu/ESPN+ Bundle commercial campaign.

And the two facts that are interesting here is A) They are a 100% PURE Apple ran Studio and B) Those commercials were made on the ORIGINAL Mac Pros, the ones with the old Vegas "not even close to what we are running in our 2019 Pro's today"...

Scroll down to the middle of this link before exploring their website and seeing their cool ass studio and look at the BTS video they created for their Disney+ Bundle ads.

And this is where it gets REAL interesting; they're building out the ad in a Maya, and then have TWO OTHER COPIES OF MAYA open and running and working on individual elements while the first copy is busy rendering and running in real-time. They ALSO have copies of OTHER HEAVY APPS open and running on separate spaces as well.

And the best quote in this section is how they say (paraphrased) "the best thing about the Mac Pro is it's like have multiple machines in one. I can have many different pro applications open and running all on entirely separate spaces without slowing down."

This has also been my experience with my Mac Pro and again, I will never understand how Apple isn't just making another intel based Mac Pro with PCIe 5.0, 48+ cores, and access to AMD GPU's "if not others"...

It's the most basic and easiest homerun ever set up in the history of Apple lol.

And they'll instead choose step up and walk the hitter to 1st base lolol.

What. The. Hell.
Yeah I wish Apple would just swallow some pride at this point and release a new 2019 style case machine with the latest Xeon or Threadripper powering it. Not that I would buy it, I still need some more mileage on my current machine before making another spend like that. But it is the sensible and win-win solution for everyone.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,174
Stargate Command
What kind of message would that send though, Apple announcing they are transitioning the entire Mac line-up to Apple silicon, yet they keep their flagship product stagnating on Intel/AMD...?

Not gonna happen...

Apple has had a few setbacks with the whole pandemic/supply chain/shipping issues, the delay with TSMC for wafers on the 3nm process, and issues with a four-way interconnect...

Once these issues are resolved, I would expect to see a very potent ASi Mac Pro on 3nm with hardware ray-tracing capabilities...
 

Joe The Dragon

macrumors 65816
Jul 26, 2006
1,031
524
This has also been my experience with my Mac Pro and again, I will never understand how Apple isn't just making another intel based Mac Pro with PCIe 5.0, 48+ cores, and access to AMD GPU's "if not others"...
apple wants to get out of X86-64. But they should of gone AMD cpu and then would of had pci-e 4.0
 
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257Loner

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2022
456
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TC, you’re right. Because all Apple computers that weren’t the Mac Pro only needed USB, Lightning, Thunderbolt, or HDMI, that’s all the connectivity that Apple Silicon chips have supported so far. Apple has yet to design an Apple Silicon chip that supports the large number of PCIe lanes that Mac Pro users want. Unless Apple designs a new line of Apple Silicon chips that supports 64+ PCIe lanes, how else will internal expansion work?

As an aside, Quinn Nelson at Snazzy Labs reported a few years ago that few PCIe Expansion Cards are compatible with the 2019 Mac Pro. Whereas native support for Apple Silicon is high, who will make macOS drivers for graphics or expansion cards for just the Mac Pro?
 
Last edited:

Apple Knowledge Navigator

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
3,695
12,929
To be fair, what really counts is focusing on fewer but more commonly used cards rather than just random ones. I understand that Quinn's test was somewhat valid given the cards are common on PCs, but with 2019 Mac Pro Apple really targeted specific use cases, such as third-party AMD graphics, Avid audio, RED, I/O, internal expansion. If Apple can satisfy the needs of those users, then that's all that really matters.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
What kind of message would that send though, Apple announcing they are transitioning the entire Mac line-up to Apple silicon, yet they keep their flagship product stagnating on Intel/AMD...?

Not gonna happen...

Apple has had a few setbacks with the whole pandemic/supply chain/shipping issues, the delay with TSMC for wafers on the 3nm process, and issues with a four-way interconnect...

Once these issues are resolved, I would expect to see a very potent ASi Mac Pro on 3nm with hardware ray-tracing capabilities...
I wouldn't say that.

First of all, the Mac Pro is NOT their flagship product. Their flagship product is very clearly iPhone. And flagship computer is MacBook.

The Mac Pro is their proof-of-innovation. And right now, they're not innovating. "Can't innovate my ass" may have been a one time thing OUT LOUD, but it's very much the mantra of what the Mac Pro has always been "or at least what it's always supposed to be".

They have to create a machine that STEPS ABOVE the current Mac Pro otherwise quite plainly, THEY FAIL. They are the most valuable company on earth, period. And it's not even close...and yet, not putting out a Mac Pro that is better than the previous in every single way, will be regarded as total failure.

This is why it's taking so long.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
Mac Pros, and G5’s before them, have always essentially just been big-box workstations. Not conceptually innovative, just well made. The ‘trucks’ Jobs referred to.

The MacBook is more popular / glamorous, but obviously not intended to be the most powerful in the range.

The next Mac Pro will be an important signifier of the future scalability of AS, and will require innovation / ingenuity to turn the existing SoC designs into a workstation.
 

AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
704
495
Zürich
They have to create a machine that STEPS ABOVE the current Mac Pro... and not putting out a Mac Pro that is better than the previous in every single way, will be regarded as total failure.
TL;DR: Not really.

While perhaps not a popular opinion, simply by considering the new Mac Pro as a Mac Studio for Pros, they could release what is effectively an expandable Mac Studio.

The Mac Studio is the allrounder: fits almost into any area of computer work: development, publishing, design, photography, video and many areas of 3D too.
You expand with peripherals, most notably hard drive space if you need lots of cheap storage.

The Mac Pro is the tweakable Pro machine: same as Mac Studio, but you can internalise custom needs like various interfaces and hard drive space, which makes it more flexible, tidier and easier to move. The original idea was clearly to offer an additional (doubling) of performance to set it apart from the Mac Studio in terms of performance, but this seems to have been scrapped. At least for now.

I think it's fair to say that not offering the M2 Extreme, thus making the Mac Pro identical in performance to the Mac Studio is a bit of a bummer for bragging rights, but at the end of the day we need to look at usability. Also, don't be surprised if Apple takes advantage of better cooling in the Mac Pro and allow the M2 Ultra Mac Pro version to run slightly faster to allow it to outperform the Mac Studio on paper (or in benchmarks). Not meaningfully of course, unless you just want "the fastest Mac".

These Mac Pros will always be a balancing act from Apple's perspective. With the Intel machines I think they tried to cater to those who need power. Grunt. A lot of you who were stuck with the 4.1/5.1 were disappointed by the high price.
If Apple goes along with the 'expandable Mac Studio concept' there will likely be some disappointment in the "I want as much power as possible" camp. At the same time, there is no reason why these machines would be prohibitively expensive for Old Gen Mac Pro users who finally can switch over. And you definitely should. Apple would most likely open up the "affordable end" to a much larger crowd than they would disappoint at the "top end".

If you are currently running a pimped Mac Pro 5.1, you will be blown away by a Mac Pro M2 Ultra.

The Problem: Apple's current problem was identified shortly after the M1 launch, once we saw how they planned to expand performance. They opted to take a core base unit design and just double, or quadruple that unit. That core Apple Silicon is great for all-around performance, but when you look at computing, the higher up you go in the "I want more Grunt" envelope, the more the expectation becomes that the compute needs are handled on the GPU.
While the base Apple Silicon unit is great for entry level stuff, the more you double it, the more overpowered it becomes on the CPU side and underpowered it becomes on the GPU side.
Or perhaps better: as you expand GPU performance, you add a lot of unwanted complexity and cost due to the CPU side that gets dragged along.

Apple-M1-chip-family-lineup-220308_big.jpg.large_2x.jpg


Ironically, I remember reading/hearing from... hmm, I think it was Federighi, saying the standard dual GPU of the Trashcan Mac Pro was a mistake. They had expected the GPU to take over the compute role, but now they have concluded that never panned out and was a mistake.

I found this to be a very odd conclusion. They were in fact right back then, they just had the wrong GPUs. The industry had moved to CUDA, later Optix, and Apple were stuck with underperforming AMD chips and the famous Thermal Corner.

To be honest, I think it's kind of awkward to keep expanding parallell CPU power, when all you want is GPU power. I think it's reasonable to stop at Ultra for these designs, but that leaves me wanting for an expansion card like the Afterburner, but for Raytracing. I'm intentionally not using the term 'Apple GPU' even though there would be a lot of overlap. In a Mac Pro, I think a pure compute cards is more attractive than a gaming video card. I also think a non-realtime parallell compute card is easier to integrate with Apple's new hardware/compute/memory design.

At this point in time, Apple has no practical way to offer Nvidia level compute performance. I'm hoping for innovation in the near future here.*

Guesstimate: Apple once again rethinks Mac Pro (but honestly, this should be true for any generation) and makes it available to a much larger crowd by lowering costs of basic configurations, while harmonising every Mac to use Apple Silicon. This decision benefits more people than it hurts.



*= I'm not interested in comparing benchmark numbers or 'on paper performance' comparing TeraFlops and such. The only thing that matters is the net result from hardware and software working together.
 

AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
TL;DR: Not really.

While perhaps not a popular opinion, simply by considering the new Mac Pro as a Mac Studio for Pros, they could release what is effectively an expandable Mac Studio.

The Mac Studio is the allrounder: fits almost into any area of computer work: development, publishing, design, photography, video and many areas of 3D too.
You expand with peripherals, most notably hard drive space if you need lots of cheap storage.

The Mac Pro is the tweakable Pro machine: same as Mac Studio, but you can internalise custom needs like various interfaces and hard drive space, which makes it more flexible, tidier and easier to move. The original idea was clearly to offer an additional (doubling) of performance to set it apart from the Mac Studio in terms of performance, but this seems to have been scrapped. At least for now.

I think it's fair to say that not offering the M2 Extreme, thus making the Mac Pro identical in performance to the Mac Studio is a bit of a bummer for bragging rights, but at the end of the day we need to look at usability. Also, don't be surprised if Apple takes advantage of better cooling in the Mac Pro and allow the M2 Ultra Mac Pro version to run slightly faster to allow it to outperform the Mac Studio on paper (or in benchmarks). Not meaningfully of course, unless you just want "the fastest Mac".

These Mac Pros will always be a balancing act from Apple's perspective. With the Intel machines I think they tried to cater to those who need power. Grunt. A lot of you who were stuck with the 4.1/5.1 were disappointed by the high price.
If Apple goes along with the 'expandable Mac Studio concept' there will likely be some disappointment in the "I want as much power as possible" camp. At the same time, there is no reason why these machines would be prohibitively expensive for Old Gen Mac Pro users who finally can switch over. And you definitely should. Apple would most likely open up the "affordable end" to a much larger crowd than they would disappoint at the "top end".

If you are currently running a pimped Mac Pro 5.1, you will be blown away by a Mac Pro M2 Ultra.

The Problem: Apple's current problem was identified shortly after the M1 launch, once we saw how they planned to expand performance. They opted to take a core base unit design and just double, or quadruple that unit. That core Apple Silicon is great for all-around performance, but when you look at computing, the higher up you go in the "I want more Grunt" envelope, the more the expectation becomes that the compute needs are handled on the GPU.
While the base Apple Silicon unit is great for entry level stuff, the more you double it, the more overpowered it becomes on the CPU side and underpowered it becomes on the GPU side.
Or perhaps better: as you expand GPU performance, you add a lot of unwanted complexity and cost due to the CPU side that gets dragged along.

Apple-M1-chip-family-lineup-220308_big.jpg.large_2x.jpg


Ironically, I remember reading/hearing from... hmm, I think it was Federighi, saying the standard dual GPU of the Trashcan Mac Pro was a mistake. They had expected the GPU to take over the compute role, but now they have concluded that never panned out and was a mistake.

I found this to be a very odd conclusion. They were in fact right back then, they just had the wrong GPUs. The industry had moved to CUDA, later Optix, and Apple were stuck with underperforming AMD chips and the famous Thermal Corner.

To be honest, I think it's kind of awkward to keep expanding parallell CPU power, when all you want is GPU power. I think it's reasonable to stop at Ultra for these designs, but that leaves me wanting for an expansion card like the Afterburner, but for Raytracing. I'm intentionally not using the term 'Apple GPU' even though there would be a lot of overlap. In a Mac Pro, I think a pure compute cards is more attractive than a gaming video card. I also think a non-realtime parallell compute card is easier to integrate with Apple's new hardware/compute/memory design.

At this point in time, Apple has no practical way to offer Nvidia level compute performance. I'm hoping for innovation in the near future here.*

Guesstimate: Apple once again rethinks Mac Pro (but honestly, this should be true for any generation) and makes it available to a much larger crowd by lowering costs of basic configurations, while harmonising every Mac to use Apple Silicon. This decision benefits more people than it hurts.



*= I'm not interested in comparing benchmark numbers or 'on paper performance' comparing TeraFlops and such. The only thing that matters is the net result from hardware and software working together.
What you described is exactly what I would want for my music studio, I’d be delighted to have Mac Pro like this.

However, for 3D/Rendering folks this will be great disappointment and will force them to go PC. Unless Apple will offer Rendering/Raytracing “Afterburner” accelerator cards powerful enough to compete with Nvidia and AMD, as you said.
 
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Matty_TypeR

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2016
641
555
UK
As this is a what if thread, what if Apple just released OSX with support for existing or new PC based hardware so people could build there own Mac pro to the spec's they wish. OSX pro to support Nvidia or AMD GPU's and also intel or AMD CPU's much like windows.

if they were to do this it would attract at least 30% of windows user's to Mac OSX and most likely lead to more ipad and phone sales as people would take to the all Apple syndrome and most likely increase apples base of Ipad, mac book sales. It would also give software developer's an opportunity to develop more OSX based software knowing it wasn't such a limited market any more for pro user's.

This would also release Apple from R&D in the Mac pro space and concentrate on its hardware for Mac book pro's and Ipad revision's using AS.

Even charge for Mac OSX pro like windows. then people can upgrade as and when they want to hardware they can afford. This change alone would attract so many windows user's to OSX and developers.

No matter what apple release in the Pro hardware it's already out of date by release.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
At this point in time, Apple has no practical way to offer Nvidia level compute performance. I'm hoping for innovation in the near future here.
This is the $64,000 question (or perhaps $6,400). A lot hinges on this MP release, because it shows whether Apple has got a technical solution here, or not. Essentially, whether or not they give up on the workstation market.

I don’t think they can use an M1 Ultra in an expandable chassis, as it doesn’t have any PCIe lanes (other than Thunderbolt). Perhaps an M2 Ultra will, but that means the M2 Pro / Max will need them too.

An AS box with PCIe for SSDs etc. but no PCIe GPU driver support will be very disappointing, given the issues you mention with simply multiplying whole laptop SoCs. No one wants to spend a fortune on a workstation whose GPU is outgunned by a midrange gaming PC (and can’t be upgraded, ever). I can only assume Apple are aware of this and have a plan, even if it’s behind schedule.
 
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257Loner

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2022
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635
As this is a what if thread, what if Apple just released OSX with support for existing or new PC based hardware so people could build there own Mac pro to the spec's they wish. OSX pro to support Nvidia or AMD GPU's and also intel or AMD CPU's much like windows.
I love this idea. If few graphics and expansion card makers will write macOS drivers for the Mac Pro (the only Mac that needs them!), then Apple should direct a team to coordinate with popular graphics and expansion card makers to get them to write the macOS drivers that Mac Pro will need. For example, Apple's best CPU combined with the CUDA-enabled GPGPU performance of an Nvidia graphics card, with the right drivers, could be competitive in performance to the best PCs out there.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
What you described is exactly what I would want for my music studio, I’d be delighted to have Mac Pro like this.

However, for 3D/Rendering folks this will be great disappointment and will force them to go PC. Unless Apple will offer Rendering/Raytracing “Afterburner” accelerator cards powerful enough to compete with Nvidia and AMD, as you said.
And that was my point. He's completely ignoring power 3D/Render users. I love the Mac Studio for my music studio, but not for our heavy VFX and 3D Production needs. 2019 Mac Pro and depending on the direction of this new Mac Pro 8.1 either that or a Puget System. Up to them to lose customers like me or not.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
As this is a what if thread, what if Apple just released OSX with support for existing or new PC based hardware so people could build there own Mac pro to the spec's they wish. OSX pro to support Nvidia or AMD GPU's and also intel or AMD CPU's much like windows.

if they were to do this it would attract at least 30% of windows user's to Mac OSX and most likely lead to more ipad and phone sales as people would take to the all Apple syndrome and most likely increase apples base of Ipad, mac book sales. It would also give software developer's an opportunity to develop more OSX based software knowing it wasn't such a limited market any more for pro user's.

This would also release Apple from R&D in the Mac pro space and concentrate on its hardware for Mac book pro's and Ipad revision's using AS.

Even charge for Mac OSX pro like windows. then people can upgrade as and when they want to hardware they can afford. This change alone would attract so many windows user's to OSX and developers.

No matter what apple release in the Pro hardware it's already out of date by release.
I like this alot. I would still just prefer literally, and I mean literally as my what if...a 2023 Mac Pro with the exact same body as the 2019 I currently have LOL, with a 48+ core CPU, 7800x duo GPU's, and PCIe 5 slots. They can literally leave everything else the same and I'm on board for another $50k lolol.

I'm a simple guy "I thought lol"
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,174
Stargate Command
Imma say it all over again...

Apple needs to make Mac Pro-specific SoCs...

Two-way & four-way...

Two-way is a "regular" Mn Max-style SoC coupled to a GPU-specific SoC...

Four-way is two of the above...

Apple also needs to make GPGPU cards with multiples of the GPU-specific SoC; 2, 4, 8 GPU-specific SoCs per card...

"iGPU" in the system SoC handles screen output, GPGPU card(s) handle compute/rendering tasks...

Definitely gonna need to be on a 3nm process for this...

And moving to LPDDR5X SDRAM would allow a higher RAM capacity, up to 1TB with 2.13TB/s UMA bandwidth...
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
Apple Silicon tops out at 4 displays, the current Mac Pro can drive 12+ displays.

There simply isn't a viable market for a Mac Pro that cannot do everything the current Mac Pro can do. It's generic nature and reconfigurability IS the product. Focus is not. No subset of the current userbase is large enough, nor safe enough from cannibalisation by other machines to make a viable product line going forward.

No one in their right mind is going to invest Mac Pro money into a machine whose fastest-obsolescing component (the display GPU) is non-upgradable.

"We want to add another monitor to put this status display / scope on"
"Sorry, you have to buy a new $20k computer to do that"
"But if I'd bought any other workstation, it's a <$1000 card"
"New computer"
"But..."
"New. Computer."

This meme of "upgradable compute, but not display GPU" is laughable, especially in light of the fact that huge amounts of software will ONLY use the display GPU, even when there's a dedicated compute card installed.
 

Varmann

macrumors regular
Jan 3, 2010
154
71
As others pointed out several times....

Apple seem to have close to no interest whatsoever to keep a healthy workstation business.

They did put some effort into it around 2005-2010. Updated OS and Pro software, regular updates to hardware etc.
After 2012 efforts have been far between and rather random, and certainly not due to an economically struggling company.

It can not even be regarded as a "hobby project". At least you have to put some love and dedication into a hobby.
 
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avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,227
1,074
This meme of "upgradable compute, but not display GPU" is laughable, especially in light of the fact that huge amounts of software will ONLY use the display GPU, even when there's a dedicated compute card installed.
I have been wearing Adobe out about this every chance I get. I mean how hard is it to add the code in to allow the user to choose the compute GPU(s); yes there should be an option for multiple GPU rendering.
 
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Basic75

macrumors 68020
May 17, 2011
2,122
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I like this alot. I would still just prefer literally, and I mean literally as my what if...a 2023 Mac Pro with the exact same body as the 2019 I currently have LOL, with a 48+ core CPU, 7800x duo GPU's, and PCIe 5 slots.
They could do an AMD Mac Pro with AMD Threadripper CPU and Radeon GPU(s). Modular. Upgradeable. Not a lot of R&D required. It would free Apple from having to scale up their mobile-first SoCs to compete with 64 core x86 processors.
 

Wokis

macrumors 6502a
Jul 3, 2012
931
1,276
There’s no coming back to X86 for Apple. So no Threadrippers and such…

What Apple should do is to create a special SOC for Mac Pro, to allow switching off on-SOC GPU and using AMD GPU cards instead (and to provide Metal drivers for them), for those folks who need them.

Will they, though?
Giant R&D cost for a small customer base. Doubt it's going to happen.

Threadripper also likely out of the question because Mac has been Intel only with many developers' x86 apps using specific Intel instruction sets at this point. Asking all devs for recompiles to satisfy a niche product isn't going to be popular.

An updated Intel Mac Pro was maybe a thing they planned to have out, at least there were rumors about an Ice Lake Mac Pro from Gurman, but Ice Lake was an unexciting bump and the better suitable Sapphire Rapids got delayed in true Intel fashion.

I suspect they scrapped the "M2 Extreme" because production houses who receive these products for early testing likely told them outright that the end-product wasn't something they were going to buy. I'm sure with time Apple will be able to weave enough consumer grade M-chips together to satisfy even the highest-end, but it looks like it's years away.

If they want to make good on their promise to the Pro customer base, they should refresh the Intel Mac Pro and just suck it up. Just like they did when they admitted the 6,1 was a failure in front of a bunch of journalists and promised to do better. It's downright disrespectful to claim that they were going to recommit to pros and then just let the platform wither away because they don't have anything available in a timely fashion.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
Giant R&D cost for a small customer base. Doubt it's going to happen.

Threadripper also likely out of the question because Mac has been Intel only with many developers' x86 apps using specific Intel instruction sets at this point. Asking all devs for recompiles to satisfy a niche product isn't going to be popular.

An updated Intel Mac Pro was maybe a thing they planned to have out, at least there were rumors about an Ice Lake Mac Pro from Gurman, but Ice Lake was an unexciting bump and the better suitable Sapphire Rapids got delayed in true Intel fashion.

I suspect they scrapped the "M2 Extreme" because production houses who receive these products for early testing likely told them outright that the end-product wasn't something they were going to buy. I'm sure with time Apple will be able to weave enough consumer grade M-chips together to satisfy even the highest-end, but it looks like it's years away.

If they want to make good on their promise to the Pro customer base, they should refresh the Intel Mac Pro and just suck it up. Just like they did when they admitted the 6,1 was a failure in front of a bunch of journalists and promised to do better. It's downright disrespectful to claim that they were going to recommit to pros and then just let the platform wither away because they don't have anything available in a timely fashion.

Frankly I hope they scrap the M2 version. The M2 is a lame duck chip. The 3nm chips they are planning for the new iPhone may have ray tracing etc. Going to that gen makes way more sense for the Mac Pro than the totally botched M2 generation.

But for whatever reason, apple, EVERY SINGLE TIME, manages to put in the most lame duck chip/protocols in the Mac Pro. It's almost spiteful. Always one or two gens back on PCI because of some intel crap chip problem. Always the old gen chip just weeks before the new gen of chips etc ship. Their operations is just pure crap in planning/release with regard to the Mac Pro. They couldn't do it worse than if they tried.
 
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