Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Wokis

macrumors 6502a
Jul 3, 2012
931
1,276
Frankly I hope they scrap the M2 version. The M2 is a lame duck chip. The 3nm chips they are planning for the new iPhone may have ray tracing etc. Going to that gen makes way more sense for the Mac Pro than the totally botched M2 generation.

But for whatever reason, apple, EVERY SINGLE TIME, manages to put in the most lame duck chip/protocols in the Mac Pro. It's almost spiteful. Always one or two gens back on PCI because of some intel crap chip problem. Always the old gen chip just weeks before the new gen of chips etc ship. Their operations is just pure crap in planning/release with regard to the Mac Pro. They couldn't do it worse than if they tried.
Obviosly as an owner of an M2 I don't entirely agree that it is a "lame duck" or I would've returned mine ;) But for the context of a Mac Pro, sure. I think this is a key reason as to why the M2 Extreme is rumored to be scrapped.

They were likely told it didn't matter how many of these they strapped together, if the GPU couldn't handle things that workstation-class GPUs from their competitors can, it's a no-buy. Accelerated Ray-Tracing likely being a big topic. And if the only way to "upgrade" an AS Mac Pro to have improved GPU-capabilities down the line would be to sell it and buy a new one, the appeal to buy first-gen would be very low.

Regarding 3nm, keep in mind whenever Apple gets their paws on a die shrink from TSMC their competitors do get to have a go on the same node about ~6 months later (where Apple is usually on the stage of implementing it for phones and tablets, still). So whatever improvement they make due to this will be matched by AMD and Nvidia and they will be in the same seat as before.
 

257Loner

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2022
456
635
Frankly I hope they scrap the M2 version. The M2 is a lame duck chip. The 3nm chips they are planning for the new iPhone may have ray tracing etc. Going to that gen makes way more sense for the Mac Pro than the totally botched M2 generation.

But for whatever reason, apple, EVERY SINGLE TIME, manages to put in the most lame duck chip/protocols in the Mac Pro. It's almost spiteful. Always one or two gens back on PCI because of some intel crap chip problem. Always the old gen chip just weeks before the new gen of chips etc ship. Their operations is just pure crap in planning/release with regard to the Mac Pro. They couldn't do it worse than if they tried.
You're right. The 2023 Mac Pro should be at the cutting edge of what's possible. Today, that means PCIe 6.0 for 64 Gb/s data transfer speed between internal peripherals and dual 25-50 Gigabit Ethernet for data transfer across external devices. Whereas PCIe 3.0 (8 Gb/s) and dual 10 Gigabit Ethernet was acceptable back in 2019, there's a lot of catching up to do for the next Mac Pro.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
You're right. The 2023 Mac Pro should be at the cutting edge of what's possible. Today, that means PCIe 6.0 for 64 Gb/s data transfer speed between internal peripherals and dual 25-50 Gigabit Ethernet for data transfer across external devices. Whereas PCIe 3.0 (8 Gb/s) and dual 10 Gigabit Ethernet was acceptable back in 2019, there's a lot of catching up to do for the next Mac Pro.

I disagree in part. When they released the 2019 machine, PCI4 was well out, and the PCI5 spec was approved.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Regarding 3nm, keep in mind whenever Apple gets their paws on a die shrink from TSMC their competitors do get to have a go on the same node about ~6 months later (where Apple is usually on the stage of implementing it for phones and tablets, still). So whatever improvement they make due to this will be matched by AMD and Nvidia and they will be in the same seat as before.

might have been true before , but not so much at this point.

Nvidia has "4N" about the same time as Apple as N4 A16 ( a Nvidia custom process in the same "5nm family". What tweaks has different than Apple's 'regular' N4 is a bit of a mystery. But is 'custom' so Apple isn't in some 'solitary more special than everyone else' category either. ) . Mediatek announced their N4 SoC Demensity 9000 back in 2021. More than 6 months before Apple . (released around May ... still a quarter in advance of Apple. )


Also announced a second gen 9200 on N2 this year and a 8000 series just a couple of months after Apple's N4 SoC.



The notion Apple is 6-12 months in front of everyone else isn't really true now. ( mostly wasn't before either. Before Hauwei got banned from TSMC by the trade war, they also were getting in line roughly the same time Apple was. Apple was really only ahead is mainly just looked at AMD/Nvidia/Intel/Qualcomm (big USA silicon design houses) as the only other rivals. )


Apple looks to be the first large volume customer to the initial N3 variant ,but does anyone else actually want it? There is a longer line for N3E . [ Mediatek having done two rounds on N4 is likely going to be toward the beginning of the N3E line. Pretty good chance Ampere Computing isn't trying to hit the 'snooze' button either. ]
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
There’s no coming back to X86 for Apple. So no Threadrippers and such…

Geopolitically, Intel is an American national security company. Apple is largely a China proxy as long as the company considers the market necessary.

Intel will have an unending credit line of taxpayer dollars to remain competitive and dominant in processors. Apple will not.

Apple Silicon is a boat anchor which will eventually run out of steam - the A16 is already being outperformed by Qualcomm's equivalent chips on GPU tasks. Apple's chip "dominance" is an anomaly from having a head start on a new paradigm where they collected the low hanging fruit the fastest.

We're at the dawn of another 68040 / G5 era.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
Geopolitically, Intel is an American national security company. Apple is largely a China proxy as long as the company considers the market necessary.

Intel will have an unending credit line of taxpayer dollars to remain competitive and dominant in processors. Apple will not.

Apple Silicon is a boat anchor which will eventually run out of steam - the A16 is already being outperformed by Qualcomm's equivalent chips on GPU tasks. Apple's chip "dominance" is an anomaly from having a head start on a new paradigm where they collected the low hanging fruit the fastest.

We're at the dawn of another 68040 / G5 era.

I think I get the spirit of your remarks but if the A17 improved on the A16 as much as the A15 did on the A14, I think they can ride the wave a bit longer.
 
Last edited:

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
I think I get the spirit of your remarks but if the A17 improved on the A15 as much as the A15 did on the A14, I think they can ride the wave a bit longer.
Sure they can ride it, but only a couple of years ago the A-Series was multiple years ahead of the performance of competitors, now they're losing their lead within the products' "new model" lifespan.

A large number of Apple's chip design team have left over the past few years, and Apple who should be riding a wave of Covid inspired sales has lost a third of its market cap in the past 12 months - the goldrush is drying up and people are bailing on the stock while they can. Apple have alienated the golden-egg-laying goose at Intel, their GPU partners, and even Microsoft can flip a policy switch and say "no ARM Windows on Apple Silicon". On top of that, regulators around the world are specifically targeting the lock-in aspects of Apple's business.

I think too many people are too close to their fandom to see just how precarious Apple's position is going into 2023.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ruftzooi and chrash

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
Sure they can ride it, but only a couple of years ago the A-Series was multiple years ahead of the performance of competitors, now they're losing their lead within the products' "new model" lifespan.

A large number of Apple's chip design team have left over the past few years, and Apple who should be riding a wave of Covid inspired sales has lost a third of its market cap in the past 12 months - the goldrush is drying up and people are bailing on the stock while they can. Apple have alienated the golden-egg-laying goose at Intel, their GPU partners, and even Microsoft can flip a policy switch and say "no ARM Windows on Apple Silicon". On top of that, regulators around the world are specifically targeting the lock-in aspects of Apple's business.

I think too many people are too close to their fandom to see just how precarious Apple's position is going into 2023.

That’s an interesting view. I don’t think many of your comments are unfair. Reasonable criticism imo. Could be but I think you’re a little early on it.

I think 5g iPhone sales were “supposed” to be a super cycle and no one cared. It was a dud.

I do think iPhone 15pro will sell HUGE for 1 major reason. USBc conversion. I hate lightening and it’s the only device I Have left that’s not usbc. I think a lot,of people will upgrade for that and the supposed 10x optical zoom, and for a kicker, nice 3nm processor upgrade. So I think 2023 will be a big year still.

Also, if they release the goggles and the UI is roughly good, that is it’s own 5-10 year cycle that it could start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: maikerukun

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,174
Stargate Command
Sure they can ride it, but only a couple of years ago the A-Series was multiple years ahead of the performance of competitors, now they're losing their lead within the products' "new model" lifespan.

A large number of Apple's chip design team have left over the past few years, and Apple who should be riding a wave of Covid inspired sales has lost a third of its market cap in the past 12 months - the goldrush is drying up and people are bailing on the stock while they can. Apple have alienated the golden-egg-laying goose at Intel, their GPU partners, and even Microsoft can flip a policy switch and say "no ARM Windows on Apple Silicon". On top of that, regulators around the world are specifically targeting the lock-in aspects of Apple's business.

I think too many people are too close to their fandom to see just how precarious Apple's position is going into 2023.

Worst case scenario, Tim Cook will keep it rolling until he secures his latest round of stock shares (2025...?), then there's a really long runway before it all burns down, so 2030 for full-on implosion...? ;^p
 

Schismz

macrumors 6502
Sep 4, 2010
343
395
Maybe we'll see a new 'large' iMac if/when there's something better than a warmed-over version of the 2017 5k panel to put in it. I mean, its great that the 2017 panel is still so good 5 years later, but I don't see it staying top of the heap much longer and wouldn't want to have one welded into a new computer today.
5k iMac is actually from 2014, so 9 years and counting...
As this is a what if thread, what if Apple just released OSX with support for existing or new PC based hardware so people could build there own Mac pro to the spec's they wish. OSX pro to support Nvidia or AMD GPU's and also intel or AMD CPU's much like windows.

if they were to do this it would attract at least 30% of windows user's to Mac OSX and most likely lead to more ipad and phone sales as people would take to the all Apple syndrome and most likely increase apples base of Ipad, mac book sales. It would also give software developer's an opportunity to develop more OSX based software knowing it wasn't such a limited market any more for pro user's.

This would also release Apple from R&D in the Mac pro space and concentrate on its hardware for Mac book pro's and Ipad revision's using AS.

Even charge for Mac OSX pro like windows. then people can upgrade as and when they want to hardware they can afford. This change alone would attract so many windows user's to OSX and developers.

No matter what apple release in the Pro hardware it's already out of date by release.
That'd be super cool. And, I'm 100% sure they have it running internally. When NeXT did a reverse-takeover of Apple -- I meant to say got acquired -- NeXTSTEP was running on its native 68K hardware, Sun SPARC and Intel (with an assortment of "NeXTSTEP compliant" configs, including the Dell DGX "Jaws" system they used to develop x86 NS). I seem to recall HP snakes and PA-RISC support, but never used that box personally, I don't remember if they had it running, had it in alpha or beta, or just announced it, and can't be bothered to look it up 🤷‍♂️

When Rhapsody was becoming OS/X, they had red box, which ran on Intel. They killed it, as well as Steve killing off all the Mac clones (all of which was a good idea, hindsight being 20/20). They also kept it all going internally, which made the Motorola to Intel transition a lot simpler for Apple.

Having said that, the odds of Apple selling its OS are roughly 0. I happen to agree with you, it's not the late 90s anymore, Apple has near-infinite runway to experiment, survive, and reinvent itself instead of stagnating, and they have an entire ecosystem of far more important products like all the iCrap & Services.

But, I don't really see macOS ever being decoupled from Apple's absolute control. That's kinda their thing. Hackintosh probably unsuitable for any professional environment.

As far as this whole thread goes, ya... when I got the MP 2019, my overall thoughts were, cool... all set for another decade I guess. Beautiful piece of over-engineered Heavy Metal sculpture. It makes me happy, that's priceless.

Happy New Year to everybody (in a few hours over where I'm at). Here's hoping Apple sprinkles magical and revolutionary pixie dust all over everything and kicks a new MP out the door with eleventeen slots, infinite RAM, Nvidia support, and anti-gravity pads instead of wheels. I'll start holding my breath.

p.s., my sig is like 10 years old, I was complaining about the lack of updated Mac Pro, with absolutely no idea it'd take another 7-8 years for next cheesegrater. This conversation is eternal. Apple always does this, or to be more accurate we're at year 15+ of Apple taking a completely schizophrenic approach to are, or are we not, making high-end workstations? And if so, how?

Cheers!
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,174
Stargate Command
Base ASi Mac Pro:
  • M2 Ultra SoC (3nm)
  • 24-core CPU (16P/8E)
  • 60-core GPU
  • 32-core Neural Engine
  • 96GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
  • 800GB/s UMA bandwidth
  • 1TB NVMe SSD (2 @ 512GB NAND blades)
  • (6) PCIe slots
  • US$5999
Fully-Loaded ASi Mac Pro:
  • M2 Ultra SoC (3nm)
  • 24-core CPU (16P/8E)
  • 76-core GPU
  • 32-core Neural Engine
  • 192GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
  • 800GB/s UMA bandwidth
  • 8TB NVMe SSD (2 @ 4TB NAND blades)
  • (6) PCIe slots
  • US$9999
 

majus

Contributor
Mar 25, 2004
485
433
Oklahoma City, OK
Base ASi Mac Pro:
  • M2 Ultra SoC (3nm)
  • 24-core CPU (16P/8E)
  • 60-core GPU
  • 32-core Neural Engine
  • 96GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
  • 800GB/s UMA bandwidth
  • 1TB NVMe SSD (2 @ 512GB NAND blades)
  • (6) PCIe slots
  • US$5999
I will take one of the Base model please. It is cheaper than what I paid for my Early 2009 Mac Pro when it was new and this model is so much more powerful.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
Base ASi Mac Pro:
  • M2 Ultra SoC (3nm)
  • 24-core CPU (16P/8E)
  • 60-core GPU
  • 32-core Neural Engine
  • 96GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
  • 800GB/s UMA bandwidth
  • 1TB NVMe SSD (2 @ 512GB NAND blades)
  • (6) PCIe slots
  • US$5999
Fully-Loaded ASi Mac Pro:
  • M2 Ultra SoC (3nm)
  • 24-core CPU (16P/8E)
  • 76-core GPU
  • 32-core Neural Engine
  • 192GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
  • 800GB/s UMA bandwidth
  • 8TB NVMe SSD (2 @ 4TB NAND blades)
  • (6) PCIe slots
  • US$9999
We will find out soon enough, not too far off now! And I won't mind this at all "as long as it comes in a config that allows GPU to be added to those PCIe slots :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlphaCentauri

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
No GPU in PCie slots, but audio cards, video cards, storage cards
I think the price is too high for the base model
4999$ for the base model is enough
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
No GPU in PCie slots, but audio cards, video cards, storage cards
I think the price is too high for the base model
4999$ for the base model is enough
Yeah that would be a no-go system for me. It needs to be around $50k maxed out and the money needs to be JUSTIFIED...
 

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
I'm a little tired of waiting for the new mac pro.
I will see if there are any announcements on the next mac pro and macbooks pro this month
I'm thinking of buying a PC with a RTX 4090 + an AMD pro gpu.
 

innerproduct

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2021
222
353
So, if there only is this m2 ultra based unit with nothing extra, what’s the use case? Obviously there wouldn’t be any benefit for 3d work compared to a having the same chip inside astudio enclosure. Sure it would be nice to have a pcie card for storage, but other than that, the market must be microscopic.
I actually think Apple have some plan that will surprise us. They wouldn’t have put all this effort into metal and 3d software over the last 5 years (yeah, they bet on the wrong horse first with the Amd pro render 😂). I just wonder if there is any technical solution to allow a compute card for metal compute to be used without changing software. Would be sad if we more or less was back in “nubus” days
 
  • Like
Reactions: maikerukun

AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
You guys keep forgetting about all project and home music (and video) production studios. Many of us need PCI expansions and more than 128GB Ram. We don’t really need strong 3D/Raytracing GPU.

As I said before, I was close to buying Studio Ultra with 128GB Ram and 4TB SSD (about £6000 in U.K.) but I’ve decided to wait for Pro. If I can have more RAM and PCI expansions in a tower case with better cooling, I’m all for it and willing to spend around £8000 max.

3D market might be microscopic on Mac (for Apple), but music and video production markets are not. I think this will be their main target with new Mac Pro.
 
Last edited:

AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
3D is so tiny and not worth Apple chasing, that they're paying the Blender foundation to keep making the Mac version.

Yes, they do. But the main area of interest is to make Blender compatible with Metal so that viewport real-time rendering can be done on AS, using SOC GPU. That’s the main goal at the moment. There’s nothing else brewing at the moment.

Blender is being used for VFX more and more by small video studios, so that goes well with what I’ve said before - the target for new Mac Pro are project video and audio production studios.

3D and Raytracing with discrete GPUs is not Apple’s area of interest. That’s why I think AS Mac Pro will not work with dGPUs, even if PCI slots are there.

Which is a shame, of course.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Colstan
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.