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mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
If this is how you feel... and the same goes for all the likes under your statement: how come you guys spend time here?

Not speaking for any others but...

I like the (slotbox) Mac Pro - I like that it's a structure where I am empowered to make the decisions about configuration and performance. I liked macOS (now I just find it less loatheseome than the alternatives) in the past when it was just an easy to use UNIX, again, because it empowered me to do things - I never felt like I was a guest at the whim of un unknowable black box, as macOS has become.

I liked Apple when Jobs was running it, and it was based on NeXT's idea of building a premium front end to industry standard utility. I liked that, because it was a refreshing change from the barely-working proprietary garbagefire that was Apple prior to the NeXT takeover.

I had a G3 Powerbook running 10.3 or so, every day it would be unhooked from extarnal displays, put in a bag, commuted, then hooked up to other displays or projectors, then commuted home again, hooked back to home displays... uptimes on that machine were frequently over 100 days.

my first Gen Powermac running classic macos would crash and restart as often as every 5-10 minutes in Photoshop & QuarkXpress.

That's what the Jobs NeXT era of Apple gave to me.
 
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mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
Our old love has been cheating for a decade and we can’t let her go. She keeps taunting us and mistreating us and still we hope for the love to return.

I had a G3 Powerbook running 10.3 or so, every day it would be unhooked from extarnal displays, put in a bag, commuted, then hooked up to other displays or projectors, then commuted home again, hooked back to home displays... uptimes on that machine were frequently over 100 days.

Yeah, as you might suspect from my pic and sig, I'm a fan of Macs from the turn of the millennium. I originally started here in the PPC section, though moved to the MP section as I progressively upgraded my 4,1. I got started on Mac OS 8.6 in the late 90's, with a 400MHz PowerMac G4, so chuckled at the comment about Photoshop and Quark crashing. Classic Mac OS did have a charm to it though - it instantly hooked me in. I skipped the G5 for a P4 PC (they were so much better value, and I needed to use 3ds Max anyway), and only returned to macOS with the second generation of Intel machines (a 15" MBP).

Although the airflow was terrible and the design would need completely reconfiguring for modern components, something akin to the PMG4 in size, price and expandability would be quite nice. Though the interior might need to be a bit bigger to comfortably air-cool modern CPUs / GPUs.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
If this is how you feel... and the same goes for all the likes under your statement: how come you guys spend time here?

It's an honest, meant-to-not-be-inflammatory question.

Across many of the pages in this thread, but others too, I get the feeling I'm reading the opinions and thoughts of people who don't appreciate Apple very much. So why spend time here?

First, im not going to say that I find your question inflamatory. Nope. I won’t do it. 🙄

Anyway…Do you know someone or some entity that never lies? Never misleads? That’s quite the red herring straw man and has little to do with anything. No one or thing needs to be perfect and without sin to be liked. Everyone does lie. Different degrees for different reasons at different times. Some more. Some less. Mixed in with many other things that they do well and I do like. You weigh it all out and keep with it until the balance no longer works. Basic abc stuff.

That said, apple’s complete bs “benchmarks” showing the studio is faster at graphics was so disingenuous, tHat trusting them on Mac Pro claims is now mostly evaporated.

Now it’s more of a proof is in the pudding. So we’re waiting for the pudding.
 
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mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
The issue with Apple is more 'spinning' than outright 'lying' IMHO. The point is that some on the forum take Apple PR at face value, saying things like "The iMac Pro wasn't intended as a replacement for the Mac Pro. Apple said so themselves.". I took @mattspace's comment to mean you need to think for yourself, not just absorb Apple spin uncritically.

The issue is particularly pertinent here, as we're all essentially reading the tea leaves, in lieu of any actual press release from Apple over the future direction of the Mac Pro. And this isn't just about an incremental product release, like speculating on an M2 iMac or whatever. The next Mac Pro will provide a fundamental insight into the direction of Apple Silicon. It will be the first - and only - time it has been used beyond a mobile or mobile-like product. This matters to fans of desktop machines.
 
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bax2003

Cancelled
Dec 25, 2011
947
203
Screenshot 2023-02-06 at 14.59.51.png


We still need....end of story... After expendable machine like 7,1 there is just no logic of building workstation like 6,1 or similar. I think Apple learned their lesson with trashcan.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
I agree. If they don't stick with Intel for the Mac Pro (which has some logic but is admittedly unlikely), they will at minimum need a new SoC design with vastly more PCIe lanes than the M2 Max has currently.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
In one of the other threads our leaker with a testing friend that confirmed a pci slot, in his latest post noted he asked his friend if there would be gpu support. Is friend couldn’t answer but smiled. I’m going to take that smile as, yes, we’ll have gpu support.

‘’That smile had to be there for a good reason.
 

Joe The Dragon

macrumors 65816
Jul 26, 2006
1,031
524
I agree. If they don't stick with Intel for the Mac Pro (which has some logic but is admittedly unlikely), they will at minimum need a new SoC design with vastly more PCIe lanes than the M2 Max has currently.
they can take some of the TB buses and use the lanes on them.
 

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
One of the things that could worry me about apple silicon mac pro and which doesn't cause problems on intel macs (or maybe it's me who didn't make the right settings): these are some specific issues:
It seems that a lot of disks/ssd are slower (a question of controllers? ) some headphones do not work, the wacom cintiq pro issue with screen management and stylus settings...
for certain pro uses, I think xeons and intel controllers are stable (and even more so than threadrippers which I have been told are less stable than xeons) but would need some serious professional tests with a large number of devices and different configurations.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
they can take some of the TB buses and use the lanes on them.
How many are going spare? Not sure GPUs perform that well on e.g. a 4x connection. Bear in mind that most of the TB lanes are already spoken for in terms of external ports, which presumably the Mac Pro would retain.
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
In terms of possible capabilities, has anyone actually found any info on how many PCIe lanes the M2 Ultra would theoretically have? Found some info on the M1 but nothing on the M2 Pro or Max (or M1 Ultra, to use as a starting point.) I assume it's going to be more limited slot-wise than a Xeon from jump, although some of the lanes that would be required on an Intel Mac Pro are also taken care of for "free". Miss the days of Anandtech's block diagrams and such.
 

AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
704
495
Zürich
First, im not going to say that I find your question inflamatory. Nope. I won’t do it. 🙄
Yeah, so this is the reason I tried to go out of my way to make it clear. A bit more on this further down.

A couple of people managed to chip in with their take on what drew them in and why they are staying even if interests seem to be misaligned one way or another.

Since I asked the question, I know the exact motivation behind it. I know a lot of successful companies that I don't particularly admire. I don't buy their products, and I don't spend any time at all thinking about what they might make next, or seeking out discussions about it online. They are simply 'off my radar'.

I've read quite a few posts here lately that are ripe with resentment, and I wonder why someone might feel trapped to the point that venting is all that is left.

Using the post feedback reactions, there seems to be substantial support, or agreement, for posts bashing or belittling Apple's efforts. The same support is often found for posts criticizing users that are excited about Apple's current direction.

I guess time will tell if it's just this inflamed Mac Pro issue, or if the same behavior can be seen in other threads as well, and it's simply the perception of Apple that is the culprit.

I can only be explicit and measured. How everyone reacts, in the end, is up to them. I guess we've seen a bit of both.

Same goes for Apple. It won't really matter what they say, people will read into it what they want.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
Any chance we got this all wrong and the new MacPro will be Intel based? After all, Tim did say they had an Intel Mac coming and the new Xeons are set for the end of Feb.

THIS! I have pointed this out several times that Tim literally said there were multiple Intel Macs STILL in the pipeline and that has yet to be revisited. Fam I'm telling you it's gotta either be a brane new chip "or GPU", or they're flat out doing one more Intel Mac Pro refresh. Fingers are DEFINITELY CROSSED...
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
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I would die of happiness!

Though yes -- I do remember: the original rumors were that there would be one more Intel Mac Pro, potentially using the same case as the 7,1 with newer CPUs, and THEN they would perform the transition to ARM by releasing an AS Mac Pro.

This is the same unit that I believe @Amethyst's 'friend' was testing out, but word form him was that this project got scrapped.... Gurman also mentioned something being scrapped, and I'd bet he was potentially referring to the same project?

*shrug*
Maybe you or someone with more technical knowledge can tell me...would they have no problem refreshing the Intel based Mac Pro and including the AS Media Encoder in it? Or is that media encoder literally 100% tied into the M series chips??
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
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Is it fair to say that although AS is performant, its GPU power is still way off that of dGPU? It is from a rendering point of view. A maxed Ultra can’t come anywhere near my 2x Duo’s.

If so, could Apple just be waiting for new Xeons and then release an updated Intel MacPro with updated MPX modules? This would allow them to utilize the existing case and mpx design.

Then the choice becomes pretty clear. Mac Minis and Studios for most people, MacPro for the niche. It would also buy them time until AS is at such a point that it can match dGPU’s.

Maybe a gross over simplification but it makes sense to me. Just find it hard to believe they would go to all that effort of designing the 7’1 and giving it such a short shelf life.
THIS THIS THIS a million times over is making more sense to me than anything else. It is the absolute best explanation as to why it's taking so long and also this would be the most fair thing to do for current 2019 Mac Pro owners as well. Hell I'd put the current Pro up in the music studio, give the Mac Studio to one of my youngest siblings "the high schoolers" and get the new Mac Pro to run the production studio. They do this and I will never complain about them again "I'll complain about them but it will be in a playful manner lololol"
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
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Yeah, so this is the reason I tried to go out of my way to make it clear. A bit more on this further down.

A couple of people managed to chip in with their take on what drew them in and why they are staying even if interests seem to be misaligned one way or another.

Since I asked the question, I know the exact motivation behind it. I know a lot of successful companies that I don't particularly admire. I don't buy their products, and I don't spend any time at all thinking about what they might make next, or seeking out discussions about it online. They are simply 'off my radar'.

I've read quite a few posts here lately that are ripe with resentment, and I wonder why someone might feel trapped to the point that venting is all that is left.

Using the post feedback reactions, there seems to be substantial support, or agreement, for posts bashing or belittling Apple's efforts. The same support is often found for posts criticizing users that are excited about Apple's current direction.

I guess time will tell if it's just this inflamed Mac Pro issue, or if the same behavior can be seen in other threads as well, and it's simply the perception of Apple that is the culprit.

I can only be explicit and measured. How everyone reacts, in the end, is up to them. I guess we've seen a bit of both.

Same goes for Apple. It won't really matter what they say, people will read into it what they want.
Hmmm, I never saw your question I think, but I think I'm fairly clear on how I feel about Apple.

I own an AS iteration of every single product they make. I own their watch as well. And I own their Intel Mac Pro 7.1

REGARDLESS of what happens with the 8.1, I will update all my AS Mac products almost annually and likely forever lol. I LOVE Apple Silicon! It's incredible and what it's done for me on the road with my MacBook Pro's is just nuts! I also love what the Mac mini and Mac Studio are capable of now and it's fantastic! I've got one of the M2 Mac mini's on order that comes in Feb 22nd that I'll be using to replace my old Plex Server. I absolutely adore my Apple Watch and honestly it's got me in the best shape I've been since back in University. I run 3 miles a day "coming off of a herniated disc and a pinched nerve" and am getting back in shape and absolutely love tracking my weight lifting and running with my watch. I have an Apple TV connected to every non-computer screen in my house, and there's an M1 powered iPad Pro on every desk. I have an iPad Pro in my go-bag as well that just sits there for whenever I travel lol.

I absolutely adore Apple and even a handful of their services. Don't remember the last time I didn't have Apple Music and Apple TV+ "Mythic Quest and Severance are among the 25 best tv shows ever made in my opinion".

So...I love Apple and will never sell my stock in them and will always support them and their products...

...but...

...what they are doing with the Mac Pro right now is driving me crazy and I won't be able to stop complaining, ranting, resenting, venting, and talking about it until we find out what the heck is going on LOLOL.

I hope that's clear in terms of how I feel about Apple lol.
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
THIS! I have pointed this out several times that Tim literally said there were multiple Intel Macs STILL in the pipeline and that has yet to be revisited. Fam I'm telling you it's gotta either be a brane new chip "or GPU", or they're flat out doing one more Intel Mac Pro refresh. Fingers are DEFINITELY CROSSED...
When was that said? It seems bizarre if Cook really meant new Intel Macs that they wouldn't have come out already. There's already been an Intel W-series they could have migrated the Mac Pro to. Waiting three years to upgrade to another set of Intel chips doesn't seem like in keeping with their "move off Intel ASAP" plan, even with the obvious caveats that Covid and the supply chain disruptions have caused.
 

AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
704
495
Zürich
...what they are doing with the Mac Pro right now is driving me crazy and I won't be able to stop...
Do you mean as in not releasing a new Mac Pro yet? Has it been too long since the 2019?

I guess Intel's CPUs are out of their control, and it's never really been the case that you can just pop in a new CPU anyway. They make sure that you need to change the motherboard, CPU, and memory anyway, so the myth of generational upgradability has always been more of a romantic idea.

No, workstations get component upgrades. Apple did release updated GPUs in a timely fashion, I would say. They are offering GPUs that are pretty unique in the workstation world. Apple custom-designed the MPX module, making it compatible with normal GPUs while at the same time offering more power to Apple's own solutions. At a price of course.

Or... are you going crazy about what people are saying Apple will do? I'm guessing once the actual solution is here, there will be (lots of) people in both camps of PRO vs AGAINST.

Regardless, my take on it is that it's of course fine to be irritated, frustrated, and mad about decisions that Apple makes. It doesn't matter if it's a headphone port that goes missing, a huge Mac Pro with no internal solutions for memory cards, soldered-on memory, or general architecture.
But to me, it makes a difference how feelings are expressed, or where they are coming from. If there is a deep distrust towards the company, or the people running it, I can't say what makes it worth investing so much interest in it.
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
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Oct 22, 2009
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This actually makes quite a bit of sense. We've mostly been assuming the AS transition will go exactly the same as the Intel transition - total, and as quickly as possible. Apple are well known for their reluctance to support legacy technologies, and we'd assume they'd want to rapidly move on. There would also be clear benefits to being on one architecture from top to bottom, over all their Mac / iOS products.

On the other hand, the last 40 pages of speculation have seen us tie ourselves in knots trying to figure out how a mobile-based SoC architecture with negligible PCIe expansion lanes can power a workstation in the mould of the Intel Mac Pro.

One school of thought is that it can't, and Apple will just cancel the Mac Pro. But this would be odd, since they've already said it's coming, and rumours from Amethyst and others suggest it's nearing production. In addition, it's only been a few years (2017) since Apple made a big song and dance about the need for a big, expandable Mac.

Another strand is that they will take their current highest-end SoC, the Ultra, and build a workstation around it. But it has hardly any PCIe. Using the few TB connections it has and fanning those out via PLX switches to a bunch of slots would make the per-slot PCIe bandwidth a joke. This isn't a possibility; it would be easier to just release a matching TB chassis for the Studio (or rely on others do so).

Another possibility is inserting some kind of bridge chip between two Max chips, connected on either side via their UltraFusion links. This would tap the super-high bandwidth connection to provide PCIe lanes. The problem with this is that aside from adding a lot of complexity, it would likely impact the latency between the SoCs, which needs to be essentially zero to allow them to work as a single large SoC. Also, it doesn't seem compatible with how Ultras are manufactured, which is presumably a bunch of Max's butted up against each other on a wafer, with perfectly functioning pairs becoming Ultras, and the rest getting cut up into single Max's or Pro's.

The last possibility is the all-new super-SoC, designed purely for the Mac Pro. Given this would be the most expensive chip they make, by far, being sold in their lowest-selling machine by far, this also seems very unlikely. It would have no application elsewhere in the range - and never could do. Everything else is mobile / efficiency-first, based on one of two chips (Mx or Mx Max) derived from the current iPhone SoC. The Mac Pro SoC would be performance / clock speed first, with little regard to power efficiency. What trickle-down could there be?

A hybrid of the previous two options is the (rumoured cancelled) 'Extreme' SoC, which logically-enough takes the Ultra concept and extends it to four Mx Max's. This would solve the 'unique SoC' costs, but would still have many of the remaining issues. 4x 'weak' GPU only becomes 'decent' GPU. 'Laughable' PCIe bandwidth only becomes 'mediocre' bandwidth. It's still not compatible with existing manufacturing, which is likely more akin to cutting Ultra's in half to make Max's, than 'stitching together' Max's to make Ultra's (despite the cool CGI animations in keynotes).

Given that sales of Macs are dwarfed by AirPods, it may actually make sense for the Mac Pro to just continue on Intel. It's so far out of the scope of everything else in the range, that trying to include it within the AS umbrella may be a fool's errand. I had assumed it would be a humiliating loss of face for Apple / AS to not have an AS Mac Pro - but would it really? How many of their customers are even aware of the Mac Pro? How many resources do Apple really want to devote to it? Judging by this thread, many actual Mac Pro customers would be delighted if Apple just released a new Intel Mac Pro every 3-4 years, with the latest chipsets and support for the latest GPUs.
I would be beyond delighted my friend.
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
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Oct 22, 2009
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I just had the thought that there could be two Ultra SOCs on one daughter card module with the heatsink already attached. The Mac Pro would have slots for four daughter cards total for a maximum of eight Ultra SOCs. This would be how CPU, GPU, and RAM are upgraded. This could be user upgradable with DFU restoration or done at an Apple Store.

This would make a machine with the following max specs:
  • 1.5 TB RAM
  • 192 CPU cores (128p/64e)
  • 608 GPU cores
  • 16 media encoders
  • 256 NE cores
  • 8 PCIe slots (only 4 maximum are active if only 1 SOC daughter card is installed)
This would give Apple a massively upgradable machine without sacrificing the benefits of Apple silicon. The major challenge would be the massive amount of engineering needed to pull this solution off, but if they could, I think it would be the right solution for Apple. Most people would be happy with the base mode with one SOC daughter card and 4 PCI slots. The bandwidth can be distributed amongst the slots via control panel if needed similar to the current 7.1 machine.
Hmmmm, interesting. Sounds good...how much faster would a config like this be than the M2 Ultra Mac Studio (incoming)???
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
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Oct 22, 2009
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When was that said? It seems bizarre if Cook really meant new Intel Macs that they wouldn't have come out already. There's already been an Intel W-series they could have migrated the Mac Pro to. Waiting three years to upgrade to another set of Intel chips doesn't seem like in keeping with their "move off Intel ASAP" plan, even with the obvious caveats that Covid and the supply chain disruptions have caused.
He said it at the announcement of the M series chips...when they first introduced AS, whichever keynote that was...someone actually just recently posted the exact quote in the past hour or so :)
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
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Oct 22, 2009
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Do you mean as in not releasing a new Mac Pro yet? Has it been too long since the 2019?

I guess Intel's CPUs are out of their control, and it's never really been the case that you can just pop in a new CPU anyway. They make sure that you need to change the motherboard, CPU, and memory anyway, so the myth of generational upgradability has always been more of a romantic idea.

No, workstations get component upgrades. Apple did release updated GPUs in a timely fashion, I would say. They are offering GPUs that are pretty unique in the workstation world. Apple custom-designed the MPX module, making it compatible with normal GPUs while at the same time offering more power to Apple's own solutions. At a price of course.

Or... are you going crazy about what people are saying Apple will do? I'm guessing once the actual solution is here, there will be (lots of) people in both camps of PRO vs AGAINST.

Regardless, my take on it is that it's of course fine to be irritated, frustrated, and mad about decisions that Apple makes. It doesn't matter if it's a headphone port that goes missing, a huge Mac Pro with no internal solutions for memory cards, soldered-on memory, or general architecture.
But to me, it makes a difference how feelings are expressed, or where they are coming from. If there is a deep distrust towards the company, or the people running it, I can't say what makes it worth investing so much interest in it.
As I think I stated, I LOVE Apple and 99% of everything they do! LOL. And it's driving me crazy not getting updated GPU's or at least the idea that they are not going to make at least ONE hardware update to the 7.1 Mac Pro. I would just adore getting one up to date Mac Pro exactly as my current one with 56 CPU cores, latest Intel board, updated GPU compatibility, PCIe 5 slots, and AS media encoders. That's literally my dream machine. That's all I need and I'll be happy "obviously 1.5tb of ram and I will get my space from OWR lol".
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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True, though Gurman is saying no update until M3, which is a bit different.

That isn't quite what he said. Gurman tacked on an "or dropped/abandon" on the end there. That also implies it isn't conditional on the Mn version.

M3 generation probably isn't coming inside of a 12 month window of the Studio. Even if Apple did talk about an M3 generation Mac in March 2023 , it would likely only be as a 'sneak peak' . And hence no replacement in terms of immediate purchase.

If the Mac Pro and Mac Studio updates both depended upon a relatively wafer scarce TSMC N3b foundation then yeah it would make sense for both moves:

a. do the Mac Pro first (because it is late and it has higher gross margin )
b. use the SoC in both Mac Pro and Mac Studio to get economies of scale ( volume).

If wafers are relatively scarce then really cannot do the second issue first. [ Even if Apple keeps the 'M2 Ultra' on N5P, it is an even bigger chip so really don't do much for saving wafer consumption. It may not be as acute a constraint , but still more than it was. If the initial demand bubble for the Mac Pro lasts too long the Mac Studio could slide to M3 Ultra 'first' if has a early 2024 time frame and let Mac Pro catch up after . If Apple is going to roll out the Mac Pro on a N5P foundation it has big problems. ]


The way Gurman is couching the whole this is twisted if that is the path Apple is on. What he wrote is more so for the sizzle factor of "Apple's going to kill the Studio you like" or "Apple going to kneecap other models to bring iMac back" or etc. to draw out clicks from the respective camps of "my favorite system is in troubled/saved" . It isn't that Apple is 'afraid' of too much Mac Studio / Mac Pro fratricide and more so they just don't have enough SoC packages to go around. (which somewhat lies up with his story about they killing the M2 Extreme due to 'resource management' ( i.e., not enough wafers to assign to the product) rather than it wouldn't technically work.


Dropping the Studio makes about zero sense. Apple needs MORE desktop products to put the Ultra into to crank up enough volume to justify the chip package; not less. Having the Studio and Mac Pro share the SoC and spread amortization costs over two products (instead of just one) would only help. Any fraticide component would be relatively small because sell of an Ultra inside of a Studio or Mac Pro could count both ways. The systems in the non-interaction area between the two just mean more sales of an already relatively very small volume SoC.

The more subcomponents the Studio and Mac Pro share the less the fratricide matters. Same 10GbE controller, same HDMI subsystem , audio subsystem , primary SSD drive , etc. It doesn't have to 100% overlay to lower the impact. The Mac Pro could have a different power supply , a two input PLEX PCI-e switch (to drive 6 slots), AUX power , etc. That other stuff is enough to drive customer preference differentiation. Both can hold true. they don't have to 100% overlap or 100% not overlap.


Obviously no Mac can get updated to the next M-chip before the chip exists, but once it does, updating the logic boards can’t be that hard - especially with so much commonality between the different machines.

That presumes Apple doesn't do anything dramatic with the enclosure. Going from iMac 21.5" to 24" was complicated by going to an iPad on a stick design metric. As long as it is "oversized" containers with lower coupling between logic boards and enclosure the work is low.

Apple probably needs to tweak the power supply either contractors and/or design a bit. The buzzing power supply problems are not huge, but not negligible either.





Once one machine gets e.g. an M2 update, people looking to buy a model that hasn’t will be inclined to put off their purchase, particularly if it’s a higher-end / more expensive machine. With the MBP, Air, mini and the new mini Pro now on M2, would you want to buy a Studio now? You’d be a bit gutted if the M2 version came out a couple of months later - it would seem rather ‘obvious’ in retrospect.

The higher the priced the Mac system is the more folks should buy it if it fits their business requirements. (not their likes , wants , lust , or 'fomo' factor, real requirements). The hype train on M3 has built up with some that there will be some kind of revolutionary change and there probably won't. M1 Ultra to M2 Ultra (if same base sub-component units on same node as the Max ) will be a evolutionary difference. Same is likely true on general code for M2 -> M3. There will be some relatively narrow targeted areas where Apple does a lot better , but the rest is just a decent bump in performance.




Also, M1 was the first AS chip, the Studio was a brand new model, and the last couple of years have had widely-publicised supply chain issues (GPUs were notoriously affected). Weren’t the M2 laptops intended to have come out in October? It may be too early to identify the ‘typical’ cadence of Apple releases in the AS era.

Which means "waiting on M3 Studio" could easily slide into 2024. It is too early to tell what the 'normal' iteration cycle is going to be , but the expetaction that it is going to be iPhone like isn't well grounded. It takes longer to verify and certify a larger chip package. There is just more stuff to do. So a package that is 4-6 x bigger probably isn't going to iterate on exactly 12 month cycles. Add in larger variations of the die packaging technologies involved and just all the more likely will get a divergence.
 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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I guess Intel's CPUs are out of their control, and it's never really been the case that you can just pop in a new CPU anyway. They make sure that you need to change the motherboard, CPU, and memory anyway, so the myth of generational upgradability has always been more of a romantic idea.

That is more so true from a narrow Apple perspective. It is generally not true from the foundational Intel perspective. When Intel was on a 'tick/tock' cadence the processors in the server space shared the same socket (and PCH I/O controller) for the whole tick/tock iteration. Three, four, five generations? No, but going two wasn't impossible.

Starting in 2013 though, Apple kept jumping in at the tail end of the tick/tock iteration so there were no upgrade paths in the same socket. MP2013 --> Xeon E5-1600v2 series (second; end of sequence). MP 2019 --> Xeon W-3200 (although that was somewhat the first 3000 sub-series was still a '2' second. ). [ The iMac Pro was a Xeon W-2100 series. But the Xeon W-2200 implementation was largely just a rebadged and repriced 2100 dies. It happened to be pragmatically a dead in also unless looking to lower overall system prices ... which Apple wasn't. ]


They skipped W-6300 (Ice Lake) which is a somewhat uncharacteristic 'dead end' for Intel. But it was also a competitive disaster also. So not a shocker at all that Intel was eager to move onto another socket as fast as possible. Xeon SP Gen 4 (sapphire rapids) and Gen 5 (emerald rapids) are going to be socket compatible. There may not be a "emerald rapids" update to Xeon 3400/2400 line ups, but if there were emeral rapids updates, they too would be socket compatible. Gen 6 will switch sockets again. Intel is still playing 'catch up' they can't afford to sit on same socket for more than two generations. The same non competitive socket is just a boat anchor.



Even back in the 2006-2012 era Apple really didn't treat the CPU package and socket as a "user replaceable part". People did it, but Apple wasn't a cheerleader for it. So why folks think that Apple is going to do a 180 reverse after multiple decades of not being user CPU socket fans to being one for the Apple Silicon solution is a real head scratcher.
 
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