MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...

[Lord Blackadder]

Few letters with huge implication.

Not really. I imagine I earned the right to at least respond to your opinion on this topic with my own. And if not earned, I feel entitled to it, as any random person on an internet forum would. MR's excellent mods will excise it if it's truly inappropriate.

In addition to the reasons I've already mentioned, I've had too many experiences here where "discussions" lead no where and the overall rhetoric is a saddening affair. One foot out the door, so to speak.

The real world is far, far worse. This place has been a sort of lifeboat for the better part of 20 years (outside the now dead PRSI forum at least )

 

[AndreeOnline]

Not really. I imagine I earned the right to at least respond to your opinion

Feel free. Just saying I'm not entering the discussion further. I'm not after the "last word". Add anything you want.

The real world is far, far worse.

I'm count myself lucky to never have to spend any time there.

 

[mode11]

In my eyes, the Mac Pro gradually evolved into more of a niche product since the first Xeon-based machines were released. And of course it has always been a workstation, not a PC - something I think many forget when comparing it to other computers (and it is, I suppose, a blurry line).

My critique of this approach is that perhaps Apple is going too narrow. The Mac Pro is a professional creative content workstation with an even more niche secondary market in certain scientific research fields.

Top end iMacs gradually became more capable, and for the tower to justify its existence, there had to be clear daylight between them.

For over a decade, Apple have seemed pretty ambivalent about making a tower computer at all; they're certainly not going to make two models. The one model therefore has to cover allmost all use-cases, necessitating a high-end machine. Plus the development costs are borne by an increasingly small number of sales, driving it further upmarket.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

For over a decade, Apple have seemed pretty ambivalent about making a tower computer at all; they're certainly not going to make two models. The one model therefore has to cover allmost all use-cases, necessitating a high-end machine. Plus the development costs are borne by an increasingly small number of sales, driving it further upmarket.

The 7,1 is surprising in that regard; it is a machine I don't think Apple wanted to create at all but had to after the shortcomings of the 6,1 made further development of that platform unwise. The tower form factor was a proven path to resolving the issues but a retrograde step if one assumes distinctive form factors are a high priority for Apple when designing desktops.

It's a 'halo' product of sorts. Perhaps profitability is not even a baked-in requirement. I assume that the next Mac Pro will again diverge from the tower form factor, especially if the rumors about non-upgradeable memory or GPUs are accurate.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

No one is really talking about the compute module. While I'm dubious as to what it is, it's fun to speculate 'what if'.

Does PCI5 give us so much speed/bandwidth that having plug in processors becomes a more feasible thing?

 

[Boil]

No one is really talking about the compute module. While I'm dubious as to what it is, it's fun to speculate 'what if'.

Does PCI5 give us so much speed/bandwidth that having plug in processors becomes a more feasible thing?

The "Building Blocks" for the ASi Mac Pro...

M3 Max SoC:

• N3B
• 16-core CPU (12P/4E)
• 44-core GPU
• 16-core Neural Engine
• 256GB LPDDR5X SDRAM (maximum)

M3 GPU-specific SoC:

• N3B
• 80-core GPU
• 16-core Neural Engine
• 256GB LPDDR5X SDRAM (maximum)

Symmetrical multi-die SoCs:

• Two regular dies for a M3 Ultra (32C/88G/32N)
• Four regular dies for a M3 Extreme (64C/176G/64N)

Asymmetrical multi-die SoCs:

• One regular die & one GPU-specific die for a M3 Ultra-C (16C/124G/32N)
• Two regular dies & two GPU-specific dies for a M3 Extreme-C (32C/248G/64N)

ASi (GP)GPUs:

• Two GPU-specific dies for a ComputeModule (160G/32N)
• Four GPU-specific dies for a ComputeModule Duo (320G/64N)

Maximum ASi Mac Pro CPU Edition:

• M3 Extreme SoC (N3B)
• 64-core CPU (48P/16E)
• 176-core GPU
• 64-core Neural Engine
• 1TB LPDDR5X SDRAM
• Two ComputeModule Duo add-in cards (640G/128N) with 1TB LPDDR5X SDRAM each

Maximum ASi Mac Pro GPU Edition:

• M3 Extreme-C SoC (N3B)
• 32-core CPU (24P/8E)
• 248-core GPU
• 64-core Neural Engine
• 1TB LPDDR5X SDRAM
• Two ComputeModule Duo add-in cards (640G/128N) with 1TB LPDDR5X SDRAM each

 

[PineappleCake]

Guys, Apple is Nintendo in terms of computer space. Nintendo leads neither in performance nor price but their IP is the most valuable and they will do whatever to protect it. For Apple it's OS and chips are the most valuable IP. iOS, macOS and watchOS is what keeps Apple, Apple.

the way Apple owning the iPhone prevents Sennheiser making their own equivalent of the W1 chip to compete with Apple / Beats headphones.

This doesn't make sense to me, thats on Sennheiser. Sony for example made their own chip for the WH-1000xm4's called the "QN1". Everything works but LDAC(iOS does not support this codec) works when Sony's App is installed. They also have a 'V1" chip which controls bluetooth.
The Sony headphones use QN1 to adjust noise cancelling on iPhone without an issue.

(Unless that's not what you mean)

 

[PineappleCake]

No one is really talking about the compute module. While I'm dubious as to what it is, it's fun to speculate 'what if'.

Does PCI5 give us so much speed/bandwidth that having plug in processors becomes a more feasible thing?

I believe its for the AR/VR device. If its for Mac Pro, that code has no reason to be in iOS 16.4.


The Compute module is for handing off work from the headset to maybe an iPhone or another module.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The "Building Blocks" for the ASi Mac Pro...

Interesting idea. Makes me wonder whether the M3 Mac Pro is real or another PowerBook G5. Crikey, the vitriolic debates we all had about THAT back in the day, despite it never actually existing!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Double post

 

[prefuse07]

No one is really talking about the compute module. While I'm dubious as to what it is, it's fun to speculate 'what if'.

Does PCI5 give us so much speed/bandwidth that having plug in processors becomes a more feasible thing?

What's most curious is... what is iOS' role in that module?!

 

[maikerukun]

Could they just scrap any proposed "M" based Mac Pro and do a proper Intel based machine with latest generation CPUs and technology. never mind the implications for Apple Silicon marketing, just continue to keep the Mac Pro a monstrous machine, huge maximum ram, massive GPU support, etc.

A Mac Pro is a pretty specialised piece of equipment anyway - it should remain that way. Making it a Mac Studio on steroids is not the answer. Existing 7,1 users will probably just hang on to their old machines or switch to PC.

5,1 users will probably swap over to 7,1 if they see them second hand at reasonable prices. The 7,1 has much more capability than the old 5,1 - especially as far as PCI slots. The 5,1 is too crowded inside especially with modern large size GPUs.

Nail meet hammer BINGO.

 

[maikerukun]

They very well could, and it actually would make sense....

Think about it -- they know they screwed up with the M1-Pro Mac Pro, and so they cancelled that, so now, while they bide their time, they could easily release another Intel x86 machine using the 7,1 case (their last x86 computer), they reuse the parts/design/mobo/case of the 7,1 while upgrading some components (PCIE 4, CPU, perhaps W7900XT) and the 7,1 continues to "live" via updated AMD driver, macOS support...

Meanwhile, they work on tuning their AS chipset behind the scenes (thinking "long-term" as deconstruct put it), and develop a new campaign for the AS Mac Pro, because we all know that there is no way in hell that AS GPU tech can compete with Nvidia/AMD at this point in time.

This strategy would buy them some time to let them focus on competing with Nvidia/AMD, and really develop a solid professional-class machine, while they continue to support the 7,1 and (now)8,1 along the way, and they keep their Pro users happy (I know that I am reaching now). I am thinking, perhaps by ~2025-26 the real AS MP is released (alongside the release of macOS 15), on 2nm, which maybe can stand toe-to-toe with Nvidia/AMD?

I know it's counterintuitive because they probably want to migrate macOS completely over to ARM as they continue to dumb-it-down and diminish it into iOS, but if you think about it, the time it buys them really makes sense.

I do wonder if their partnership with Intel has expired though -- anyone know?

100%

 

[maikerukun]

Apple recently hired some Nvidia Devs and designers. I expect M3 to be a big jump over M2 in terms of GPU.

Blender is also progressing nicely.

As a side note: The M chips are good tech, it's that Apple needs to massively improve their GPUs.

YEP.

 

[maikerukun]

Based on the rumors and what we know I think it’s possible the 8,1 may be an Intel refresh.
-March coincides with the new Sapphire Rapids Xeons.
-An AS Mac Pro design with GPU expansion is still in the works. Recent patents show it is still a work-in-progress and they don’t have a high-end chip yet.

However, I think it’s possible there could be a lower-end AS Mac Pro with limited expansion to replace the Studio for this year.

Yep. This is kind of where I'm falling right now with this as well...

 

[maikerukun]

A beer says the Studio remains in the lineup, it isn't replaced by a low end AS Mac Pro, and it remains the permanent replacement for big screen iMacs / iMac Pros.

Yep. I agree about this as well. I think the 8.1 may likely be an Intel refresh, and I see Studio and Mini keeping their places in the lineup.

 

[maikerukun]

Completely agree - they (Apple) have effectively put themselves into a corner once again.

They should have been more open and realistic about how the transition would be completed with the Mac Pro, perhaps stating that it would take “a little longer” to move the Mac Pro over to AS and that there would still be Intel releases yet to come for this product line specifically.

Of course the danger with this approach is that had Apple refreshed the Mac Pro earlier, the specs would be so far beyond the realm of AS that it would, realistically, take years for Apple to catch up. That’s no exaggeration given that the 1.5TB RAM capacity and dual 6800 Duo performance of the current model is already seemingly hard to catch up with.

In my opinion Apple has to go custom with the AS Mac Pro. It will cost and arm and a leg, but if we’re being honest the machine has become more of a point of aspiration for Apple than a revenue driver.

And this is exactly the point...

 

[prefuse07]

Nail meet hammer BINGO.

Nail and hammer, meet coffin! 🤣

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Yep. I agree about this as well. I think the 8.1 may likely be an Intel refresh, and I see Studio and Mini keeping their places in the lineup.

That would be the simplest solution. Keep the Xeon-based cheese grater around until Apple silicon is ready to replace it, even if that means years.

I don’t think their failure to meet their own ambitious timeline to transition completely to their own silicon is going to lead to all that much blowback, especially given that it only affects one model.

 

[maikerukun]

No, I'm saying comparison to the cost of a MP 2019 + 2x 6800 Duos is soft-balling. That's not a realistic comparison point when a pair of 4090's cost £3500, and offer much higher rendering performance. In 2023, the new MP will be competing with the latter, not the former.

Though admittedly the 'Quadro' version of the 4090, whenever it arrives, will be substantially more expensive than the prosumer version.

The current Quadro A6000 is $10k, getting 2 of those would be 33% slower than a Mac Pro with 2 w6800x Duos in GPU performance "would obviously kill Mac Pro in CPU performance though". Regardless, you're now looking at to comparably priced $30k - $50k systems.

 

[maikerukun]

an Intel based 8.1 Mac Pro is the WAY TO GO...

And you know what's wild? There's a way to do this WITHOUT LOSING FACE! and quite frankly, while GAINING MORE RESPECT!

All they have to do is...

When they announce the new INTEL BASED 8.1 MAC PRO...all they have to say is...

Tim Cook - "We were working hard on an Apple Silicon focused solution for the Pro crowd, but as you know, we listen to our customers, and we've seen the feedback, and we know what you want. When it comes to editing on the go, and smaller more personal creative studios, nothing offers the portability or flexibility of the M-Series Apple Chip Lineup.

from the M2 Mac Mini, to the powerful portable powerhouse, the M2 Max MacBook Pros, and even or M2 lineup of iPad Pros...nothing comes close...

but when it's time to truly step up to the plate. When wattage control needs to become OUT OF CONTROL...you want the uprgradeability, the modularity, and the absolute power maximizing potential of the 7.1 Mac Pro. You want the successor. You want the absolute best of the best.

Introducing the all new 8.1 Mac Pro".

Press goes nuts. YouTubers go nuts. Hobbyists and professionals go nuts. Apple wins. We all win.

Just saying lol...

 

[maikerukun]

Funnily Windows is more of a professional OS than macOS these days. SOLIDWORKS and lots of pros use it in office and even Linux is more pro and is getting better App support look at the gaming support better than macOS these days.

The OS the Mac runs is silly, loving an OS but hating another when at the end of the day they are tools to get work done. Windows and Linux can still be customized heavily, not so much macOS.

You can customize the hell out of it via terminal in combination with things like toolbox and alfred.

 

[maikerukun]

So yesterday I got a Nvidia A4000RTX for half price off eBay and stuck it in my 7’1. And thanks to this forum I easily upgraded to Window 11. It runs flawlessly.

On the one hand I love that my 7’1 has that flexibility. Using Vray in Cinema 4d in Win 11 is super smooth.

Then I did a test.

Rendered a scene on the two duos in Mac OS. 5 mins.

Same scene on my little Nvidia card. 6 mins!

So either there’s some amazing magic in that Nvidia card or those duos are are not performing Apple needs to do some work on Metal etc.

Which duos?.

 

[maikerukun]

It's been a while since I last tried Windows and maybe I should just install it again to see what's what.

Last time I thought about it was after Windows 11 was out, but the recommendation from many was to go with Windows 10. Has that changed now?

Is Windows 11 considered to be the way to go? Asking specifically for use on a Mac Pro 2019 in this case.

I'm wondering about this as well...was thinking about grabbing this 64TB OWC and splitting the 2019 Mac Pro right down the middle of that...but what is the most powerful GPU you can put in the Mac Pro that will run on the WINDOWS side of things??

https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDACL8M264M/

 

[maikerukun]

Me too. Regardless of Apple's historical association with these markets, macOS just feels like a good fit for this area on an aesthetic level. In general, it has a fit and finish and attention to detail not found in Windows [insert snark about System Settings here]. Under the hood, I'm not qualified to say, though my impression is that the Windows OS is generally more performant, especially with 3D.


Well, we're really at the end of the transition (or would be, if Apple would just bloody release the thing). I think the next Mac Pro's architecture will answer this question pretty decisively, which is likely the reason we're 52 pages into a discussion about it...

Well, 52 pages into a discussion about WHAT IF...so it's all headed down the same river, but a lot of it is in different boats LOL