Mac Pro is not overpriced.

[MacVidCards]

Those specs are very easily proven wrong. The D700's on the Mac Pro have 6GB GDDR5 VRAM per card. That is 12GB VRAM in the machine.

Really, it is stunning how misinformed some of the posters in this thread are. The W9000 is the exact same card. The only difference, asides from no ECC VRAM which is useless in graphics applications, is the slightly slower factory clock speed of the cards. But this is very easily remedied in software.

I can't believe some of you are trying to use gaming cards in your supposedly "equivalent" machines

I can understand criticizing Apple for pricing on the iMac. But the Mac Pro is a genuinely good deal.

Also, I notice how a lot of you are building these "equivalent" machines with Windows 7, a FIVE year old operating system. LOL is all I have to say. I don't blame you for skipping windows 8, pretending it never happened, but modern OS X Mavericks is way better on a ton of different levels.

Can you put your Dad on the phone?

Feel free to post some links showing where someone, ANYONE, calls the D700 the "exact same card" as a W9000.

You do realize that you yourself called ECC "very important'?

You do realize that GPGPU means GPU doing same sorts of computations as CPU?

ECC is "very important' for CPU but leaving off the GPU is.....

 

[Ethosik]

Those specs are very easily proven wrong. The D700's on the Mac Pro have 6GB GDDR5 VRAM per card. That is 12GB VRAM in the machine.

Really, it is stunning how misinformed some of the posters in this thread are. The W9000 is the exact same card. The only difference, asides from no ECC VRAM which is useless in graphics applications, is the slightly slower factory clock speed of the cards. But this is very easily remedied in software.

I can't believe some of you are trying to use gaming cards in your supposedly "equivalent" machines

I can understand criticizing Apple for pricing on the iMac. But the Mac Pro is a genuinely good deal.

Also, I notice how a lot of you are building these "equivalent" machines with Windows 7, a FIVE year old operating system. LOL is all I have to say. I don't blame you for skipping windows 8, pretending it never happened, but modern OS X Mavericks is way better on a ton of different levels.

While I agree with you, I wouldn't understand people criticizing about the iMac either. Even the newer cheaper iMac which is basically a Macbook Air with a display. That display adds to the cost you know. How is ANY mac overpriced? Regarding the iMac, you know when you build your own machine it is

A) A standard tower, NOT an All-in-One
B) Does not come with a monitor, unless you order one separately. The screen that comes with the iMac is better than some you can buy for cheap.

For the last time, NOT EVERYTHING IS THE SAME. Not all 27" monitors are the same. Why is it if I go to newegg and search for 27" monitors at 2560x1440, I get monitors from $350 to $1,000?

Seriously:

27" QNIX QX2710 2560x1440 QHD PLS Matte Panel Monitor @ $343

OR

ViewSonic VP2772 Black 27" 12ms HDMI Widescreen LED Backlight WQHD LCD Monitor IPS, True-to-Life Color @ $922

Why would I get the ViewSonic one, or the Apple one for around the same price, or the Dell one for around $800? Is it $579 overpriced? I think I will go with the QNIX one then!

Seriously, you guys need to stop comparing basic things. Saying an iMac is overpriced but show us a $350 27" monitor is just ridiculous. The monitor alone in the 27" iMac is probably $800-$1000

Saying an iMac is overpriced by comparing it to a standard tower setup is just ridiculous. Is a standard tower the same as an all-in-one? No, I did not think so. They are different form factors.

Ok. Base 27" iMac vs a 27" Dell XPS w/ touch at around the same price.

The Dell is a lower processor (turbo boost is lower than on the iMac).
The Dell has touch (pointless for me, but some might consider this an advantage to Dell)
The Dell does NOT come with any productivity software (no office)
The Dell has "Intel HD Graphics without TPM" while the iMac has "NVIDIA GeForce GT 755M with 1GB video memory"

The verdict? iMac is reasonably priced. The Dell 27" with touch is $1600, and the iMac is $1800.

iMac comes with slightly better processor (it has higher turbo boost)
iMac comes with a much better graphics card
iMac comes with both iWork and iLife
iMac comes with future OS X versions for extremely cheap (back in the Snow Leopard days) or free (Mavericks and maybe later??). Going from Windows 8.1 to Windows 9 will probably be $100 at least, unless they do their $30 upgrade price at launch special again.
iMac has no touch (I do not need or even want touch so that doesn't matter to me, some might see it as a loss though)

I say that is worth the additional $200, don't you?

Like I said before, anything.....ANYTHING will be cheaper if you build it yourself. Look at a Alienware. Okay, now build yourself. Is it cheaper?

 

[tuxon86]

While I agree with you, I wouldn't understand people criticizing about the iMac either. Even the newer cheaper iMac which is basically a Macbook Air with a display. That display adds to the cost you know. How is ANY mac overpriced? Regarding the iMac, you know when you build your own machine it is

A) A standard tower, NOT an All-in-One
B) Does not come with a monitor, unless you order one separately. The screen that comes with the iMac is better than some you can buy for cheap.

For the last time, NOT EVERYTHING IS THE SAME. Not all 27" monitors are the same. Why is it if I go to newegg and search for 27" monitors at 2560x1440, I get monitors from $350 to $1,000?

Seriously:

27" QNIX QX2710 2560x1440 QHD PLS Matte Panel Monitor @ $343

OR

ViewSonic VP2772 Black 27" 12ms HDMI Widescreen LED Backlight WQHD LCD Monitor IPS, True-to-Life Color @ $922

Why would I get the ViewSonic one, or the Apple one for around the same price, or the Dell one for around $800? Is it $579 overpriced? I think I will go with the QNIX one then!

Seriously, you guys need to stop comparing basic things. Saying an iMac is overpriced but show us a $350 27" monitor is just ridiculous. The monitor alone in the 27" iMac is probably $800-$1000

Saying an iMac is overpriced by comparing it to a standard tower setup is just ridiculous. Is a standard tower the same as an all-in-one? No, I did not think so. They are different form factors.

Ok. Base 27" iMac vs a 27" Dell XPS w/ touch at around the same price.

The Dell is a lower processor (turbo boost is lower than on the iMac).
The Dell has touch (pointless for me, but some might consider this an advantage to Dell)
The Dell does NOT come with any productivity software (no office)
The Dell has "Intel HD Graphics without TPM" while the iMac has "NVIDIA GeForce GT 755M with 1GB video memory"

The verdict? iMac is reasonably priced. The Dell 27" with touch is $1600, and the iMac is $1800.

iMac comes with slightly better processor (it has higher turbo boost)
iMac comes with a much better graphics card
iMac comes with both iWork and iLife
iMac comes with future OS X versions for extremely cheap (back in the Snow Leopard days) or free (Mavericks and maybe later??). Going from Windows 8.1 to Windows 9 will probably be $100 at least, unless they do their $30 upgrade price at launch special again.
iMac has no touch (I do not need or even want touch so that doesn't matter to me, some might see it as a loss though)

I say that is worth the additional $200, don't you?

Like I said before, anything.....ANYTHING will be cheaper if you build it yourself. Look at a Alienware. Okay, now build yourself. Is it cheaper?

Actually those Qnx/Crossover screen are A- pannel that are made in the same factory than the Apple iMac display. If you buy one with Pixel Perfect waranty you basically get the same pannel that Apple use hence the reason why Qnx and Crossover monitor are so popular.

 

[unplugme71]

The first question you should ask yourself is why are you letting your production workstation user surf the internet?

Email should be administered and filtered also, so no personnal email on the workstation either. People have smart phones or tablets for email these days.

in short, if a computer is making you money, then it shouldn't be use for anything else then that.

who said this was business use? Even if it was, why can't they use the Internet? What if their jobs entails ordering products from multiple vendors online?

 

[handsome pete]

who said this was business use? Even if it was, why can't they use the Internet? What if their jobs entails ordering products from multiple vendors online?

He's not saying they shouldn't use the internet. It's that the workstation shouldn't really be connected to anything other than an inter office network, which a lot of companies, studios, etc. set up that way for many reasons. In fact, the edit suite I'm sitting in right now there are 2 computers. I have my Avid in front of me, then the email/internet PC (the one allowing me to respond here) off to the left.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Those specs are very easily proven wrong. The D700's on the Mac Pro have 6GB GDDR5 VRAM per card. That is 12GB VRAM in the machine.

Really, it is stunning how misinformed some of the posters in this thread are. The W9000 is the exact same card. The only difference, asides from no ECC VRAM which is useless in graphics applications, is the slightly slower factory clock speed of the cards. But this is very easily remedied in software.

I can't believe some of you are trying to use gaming cards in your supposedly "equivalent" machines

I can understand criticizing Apple for pricing on the iMac. But the Mac Pro is a genuinely good deal.

Also, I notice how a lot of you are building these "equivalent" machines with Windows 7, a FIVE year old operating system. LOL is all I have to say. I don't blame you for skipping windows 8, pretending it never happened, but modern OS X Mavericks is way better on a ton of different levels.

MacPro’s FirePro cards are actually a Radeon?, Read and learn what the difference between FirePro and Radeon is.
http://www.phme.it/wilt/2014/03/17/macpros-firepro-cards-are-actually-a-radeon/

Double precision:
D700 = 870.4 GFLOPS
http://www.gpuzoo.com/GPU-AMD/FirePro_D700.html

Radeon R9 280X = 870.4 GFLOPS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Radeon_Rx_200_Series

W9000 = 1,00 TeraFlops
http://www.amd.com/documents/2791_W9000_DataSheet_R3.pdf
http://www.schneider-digital.com/Pr...0-6GB-PCI-Express-3-0-#6-Monitore-::2858.html

But a little bit more simple just for you:
A real FirePro card is using Crossfire Pro under Windows, consumer cards can only use Crossfire X. As I know, the D700 does not support Crossfire Pro, so it is not a PRO card. Simple!

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/9

 

[iBug2]

But a little bit more simple just for you:
A real FirePro card is using Crossfire Pro under Windows, consumer cards can only use Crossfire X. As I know, the D700 does not support Crossfire Pro, so it is not a PRO card. Simple!

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/9

Crossfire Pro is a motherboard and connector feature, that means your board supports crossfiring Fire Pro cards. Mac Pro is Crossfire Pro enabled, obviously, since you can crossfire two Fire Pro cards. And yes, DX00 is a Fire Pro card. Under Windows if you install AMD drivers the control panel recognises the card as Fire Pro. Not as Radeon.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Crossfire Pro is a motherboard and connector feature, that means your board supports crossfiring Fire Pro cards. Mac Pro is Crossfire Pro enabled, obviously, since you can crossfire two Fire Pro cards. And yes, DX00 is a Fire Pro card. Under Windows if you install AMD drivers the control panel recognises the card as Fire Pro. Not as Radeon.

Crossfire is not a motherboard feature, SLI and Crossfire can run on any board but ATI and Nvidia are blocking some to sell her own or partner boards. In 2010 there where a driverhack to use SLI on any Mobo. Dont know whats up today.

You know what rebranding is?
Driver shows a GTX 760 but it was a GTX 670
Driver shows a R9 280X but it was a 7970 GHz Edition.
Driver NOW shows a D700 but it was a 7900 series before.

Before and After

Look at the Release Date: http://www.techpowerup.com/156876/amd-pulls-radeon-hd-7970-launch-to-december-22.html

If you have a Fire Pro you get Crosfire Pro in the Driver Options, if not it is not a FirePro.
Did you get Crossfire X or Pro?

Who think, apple is selling two 3000€ W9000 for 600€ each, ist a little bit to crazy for me.

 

[Ethosik]

Actually those Qnx/Crossover screen are A- pannel that are made in the same factory than the Apple iMac display. If you buy one with Pixel Perfect waranty you basically get the same pannel that Apple use hence the reason why Qnx and Crossover monitor are so popular.

Then why would I ever get a 27" monitor for $700+?

 

[MMcCraryNJ]

Then why would I ever get a 27" monitor for $700+?

You shouldn't. Nobody should. The Thunderbolt Display is simply way overpriced and is not better performing, better looking, or anything special over monitors that are half of the price. You can get an ASUS professional graphics monitor with better specs for $480-$520 depending on how you shop.

If you *really* wanted to blow $1000 on a monitor, you can get much much more for your money.

 

[Umbongo]

Actually those Qnx/Crossover screen are A- pannel that are made in the same factory than the Apple iMac display. If you buy one with Pixel Perfect waranty you basically get the same pannel that Apple use hence the reason why Qnx and Crossover monitor are so popular.

There is a huge misconception that panel equality means display equality, it does not. The cheap 27" monitors are obviously fine for general use and 60Hz gaming, as they are better "quality" than TN panels and they are fine too. They aren't always suitable replacements for professional displays (which are $600+ for 27") nor do they tend to feature the same connectivity, warranty, and housing/stand material quality of the more expensive models.

 

[tuxon86]

You shouldn't. Nobody should. The Thunderbolt Display is simply way overpriced and is not better performing, better looking, or anything special over monitors that are half of the price. You can get an ASUS professional graphics monitor with better specs for $480-$520 depending on how you shop.

If you *really* wanted to blow $1000 on a monitor, you can get much much more for your money.

I have 2 Crossover 27" and I'm quite please with them. I got them for $380 each including shipping to Canada from Korea.

 

[Umbongo]

You shouldn't. Nobody should. The Thunderbolt Display is simply way overpriced and is not better performing, better looking, or anything special over monitors that are half of the price. You can get an ASUS professional graphics monitor with better specs for $480-$520 depending on how you shop.

If you *really* wanted to blow $1000 on a monitor, you can get much much more for your money.

This just tells me you don't really know the needs of people who need something other than screen real-estate, of which there are many.

 

[MMcCraryNJ]

This just tells me you don't really know the needs of people who need something other than screen real-estate, of which there are many.

Without any explanation or elaboration on your part, I can't really comment on this, since your response only serves to tell me how wrong I am. *shrug*

 

[tuxon86]

There is a huge misconception that panel equality means display equality, it does not. The cheap 27" monitors are obviously fine for general use and 60Hz gaming, as they are better "quality" than TN panels and they are fine too. They aren't always suitable replacements for professional displays (which are $600+ for 27") nor do they tend to feature the same connectivity, warranty, and housing/stand material quality of the more expensive models.

They are the exact same IPS screen from the exact same production run than those from Apple... And for your information the Qnx can even go to 120Hz.

You are right about the connectivity, they are dual dvi only for the most part unless you pay $25.00 for the DA board wich gives you DP and HDMI.

The waranty is one year from most reseller with free shipped up front replacement. Housing and stand... Quite a non issue really since I use my computers as tools and not showpiece, but even then they aren't bad looking.

 

[Intelligent]

Damn, this thread heated up.

 

[Umbongo]

Without any explanation or elaboration on your part, I can't really comment on this, since your response only serves to tell me how wrong I am. *shrug*

I'm not going to explain all the differences of displays that cost more than $500, or why one would need them. You can find that information on [H]ard|Forum's display sub forum or http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/ if you are really interested what value such displays have.

 

[tuxon86]

I'm not going to explain all the differences of displays that cost more than $500, or why one would need them. You can find that information on [H]ard|Forum's display sub forum or http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/ if you are really interested what value such displays have.

I other word you don't want to explain why you posted that...

 

[Umbongo]

They are the exact same IPS screen from the exact same production run than those from Apple... And for your information the Qnx can even go to 120Hz.

You are right about the connectivity, they are dual dvi only for the most part unless you pay $25.00 for the DA board wich gives you DP and HDMI.

The waranty is one year from most reseller with free shipped up front replacement. Housing and stand... Quite a non issue really since I use my computers as tools and not showpiece, but even then they aren't bad looking.

Current Qnix panels are PLS aren't they? I wouldn't say Apple's display is "professional grade" either though. Again these are good displays, but lack that something extra which a premium will eagerly be paid for.

Housing and stand... Quite a non issue really since I use my computers as tools and not showpiece, but even then they aren't bad looking.

Well my computers are tools too, but I'd rather sit in front of aesthetically pleasing displays for 12 hours a day. Not that my VP-2770s are that pleasing housing wise, certainly not Apple's level, but they don't have that same feeling that these cheaper ones give me - including cheaper displays from big manufacturers.

 

[tuxon86]

Current Qnix panels are PLS aren't they? I wouldn't say Apple's display is "professional grade" either though. Again these are good displays, but lack that something extra which a premium will eagerly be paid for.



Well my computers are tools too, but I'd rather sit in front of aesthetically pleasing displays for 12 hours a day. Not that my VP-2770s are that pleasing housing wise, certainly not Apple's level, but they don't have that same feeling that these cheaper ones give me - including cheaper displays from big manufacturers.

PLS is IPS... Samsung calls it PLS while LG calls it IPS but it's the same thing.

In 2012, Samsung Electronics introduced technology named Super PLS (Plane-to-Line Switching) with the intent of superseding conventional IPS. It seems that Samsung adopted PLS panels instead of AMOLED panels, because in the past AMOLED panels had difficulties in realizing full HD resolution on mobile devices. PLS technology was Samsung’s wide-viewing angle LCD technology, and it is known as a similar technology to LG’s IPS technology.[13]
Samsung claimed the following benefits of Super PLS (commonly referred to as just "PLS") over IPS:[14]

Further improvement in viewing angle

• 10 percent increase in brightness
• Up to 15 percent decrease in production costs
• Increased image quality
• Flexible panel

I don't look at the housing, I look at the content on the screen. I can't even look at the housing unless I pull them from the wall and turn them around

 

[iBug2]

Crossfire is not a motherboard feature, SLI and Crossfire can run on any board but ATI and Nvidia are blocking some to sell her own or partner boards. In 2010 there where a driverhack to use SLI on any Mobo. Dont know whats up today.

You know what rebranding is?
Driver shows a GTX 760 but it was a GTX 670
Driver shows a R9 280X but it was a 7970 GHz Edition.
Driver NOW shows a D700 but it was a 7900 series before.

W9000 is essentially the same as 7970 except the ECC memory as well. You are not paying 2500$ for ECC memory.

If you have a Fire Pro you get Crosfire Pro in the Driver Options, if not it is not a FirePro.
Did you get Crossfire X or Pro?

Who think, apple is selling two 3000€ W9000 for 600€ each, ist a little bit to crazy for me.

You get Crossfire X and the driver is a Fire Pro driver. But someone should test if Crossfiring DX00 accelerates Maya etc on Windows. Hardware wise the 3000$ card is exactly the same as the 400$ card, except ECC. But the ECC does not add all that cost. The cost is the driver and professional support by AMD, which is irrelevant for OS X since there are no Fire Pro drivers on OS X. It's all the same driver. So AMD can sell the card to Apple for the same price as the regular Radeon, since that's what it costs them anyway.

 

[AxoNeuron]

MacPro’s FirePro cards are actually a Radeon?, Read and learn what the difference between FirePro and Radeon is.
http://www.phme.it/wilt/2014/03/17/macpros-firepro-cards-are-actually-a-radeon/

Double precision:
D700 = 870.4 GFLOPS
http://www.gpuzoo.com/GPU-AMD/FirePro_D700.html

Radeon R9 280X = 870.4 GFLOPS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Radeon_Rx_200_Series

W9000 = 1,00 TeraFlops
http://www.amd.com/documents/2791_W9000_DataSheet_R3.pdf
http://www.schneider-digital.com/Pr...0-6GB-PCI-Express-3-0-#6-Monitore-::2858.html

But a little bit more simple just for you:
A real FirePro card is using Crossfire Pro under Windows, consumer cards can only use Crossfire X. As I know, the D700 does not support Crossfire Pro, so it is not a PRO card. Simple!

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/9

I never used the word "Radeon"...are you hallucinating?

Double-precision floating point performance is but one metric to measure video card performance, and I can see why you've chosen to pick that one in particular... in the vast majority of benchmarks for rendering and graphics applications the D700's/W9000 will SLAM the R9 280x. The only reason that the D700 has a slightly lower double-precision performance is because they have a slightly lower factory clock, but this can be fixed easily in software. Once you do that, for all intents and purposes, it IS a W9000 because they share the EXACT same specs.

It's kind of funny that you don't realize that Crossfire Pro and Crossfire X are...the same EXACT thing. The only difference is a marketing decision by AMD. In fact, if they were different technologies, why do they suspiciously make use of the same exact cable, bud?

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Double-precision floating point performance is but one metric to measure video card performance, and I can see why you've chosen to pick that one in particular... in the vast majority of benchmarks for rendering and graphics applications the D700's/W9000 will SLAM the R9 280x. The only reason that the D700 has a slightly lower double-precision performance is because they have a slightly lower factory clock, but this can be fixed easily in software. Once you do that, for all intents and purposes, it IS a W9000 because they share the EXACT same specs.

Do you really believe what you are writing there?

1. Your D700 "slammer" clock is at 850 Mhz and the R9 280x is also at 850 Mhz. The only reason that the 280X has a slightly lower double-precision performance is because they have a slightly lower factory clock, but this can be fixed easily in software.

2. This can NOT be fixed easily in software, because the PSU of the nMP has only a 450 Watt PSU.

3. it is NOT a W9000 because they dont share the same specs (diffs in bold)

W9000
Tahiti XT, 2048 ALUs, 975 MHZ, 384-Bit-Interface, 6 GB ECC-GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

D700
Tahiti XT GL, 2048 ALUs, 850 MHz (-125 MHz), 384-Bit-Interface, non ECC 6 GB GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

if these are the "same" specs then the 280X is a little bit more "the same"

MSI 280X 6GB
Tahiti XTL, 2048 ALUs, 1000 MHz (+25 MHz), 384-Bit-Interface, non ECC 6 GB GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

or this:

Radeon HD 7970
Tahiti XT, 2048 ALUs, 925 MHz (-50 MHz), 384-Bit-Interface, non ECC 3 GB GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

compleed infos are here:
http://www.gpuzoo.com/GPU-AMD/

 

[AxoNeuron]

Do you really believe what you are writing there?

1. Your D700 "slammer" clock is at 850 Mhz and the R9 280x is also at 850 Mhz. The only reason that the 280X has a slightly lower double-precision performance is because they have a slightly lower factory clock, but this can be fixed easily in software.

2. This can NOT be fixed easily in software, because the PSU of the nMP has only a 450 Watt PSU.

3. it is NOT a W9000 because they dont share the same specs (diffs in bold)

W9000
Tahiti XT, 2048 ALUs, 975 MHZ, 384-Bit-Interface, 6 GB ECC-GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

D700
Tahiti XT GL, 2048 ALUs, 850 MHz (-125 MHz), 384-Bit-Interface, non ECC 6 GB GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

if these are the "same" specs then the 280X is a little bit more "the same"

MSI 280X 6GB
Tahiti XTL, 2048 ALUs, 1000 MHz (+25 MHz), 384-Bit-Interface, non ECC 6 GB GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

or this:

Radeon HD 7970
Tahiti XT, 2048 ALUs, 925 MHz (-50 MHz), 384-Bit-Interface, non ECC 3 GB GDDR5, 28 nm, 4.31 billion Transistors, 128 Texture units

compleed infos are here:
http://www.gpuzoo.com/GPU-AMD/

So your complaint lies over the lack of ECC VRAM (laughable complaint, really) and a slightly lower clock...? What is your point, exactly...? The Mac Pro never actually uses even close to all 450W of the power supply. Raising the clock speed of the D700 by 150Mhz would be a rather elementary procedure in order to match the W9000. And then the only difference is the lack of ECC VRAM, which is maybe only useful to 0.005% of users.

 

[MacVidCards]

And then the only difference is the lack of ECC VRAM, which is maybe only useful to 0.005% of users.

Media processing is only one market segment that Mac Pro's serve. ECC RAM is very important to many Pro users. In fact, it's even important in some media applications as well.

Feeling confused?

I know I am.

Did you hear that "flush" sound?

It was your credibility.