Mac Pro Stolen On Ebay

[shu82]

Only problem with giving paypal your bank account is that if that money comes up questionable, they seize it from your account immediately. My dad had it happen once, it bounced tons of checks but the bank eventually let the fees go.

Woah there. Paypal does not have the right to deduct funds from your bank account without your authorization. Their account, yes, but not your bank account. Please someone help us out with this. After I sell I always empty out paypal into my bank account. Just for this reason.

Input needed here!!!

Also personally I think this guy is the real owner of the account. He just dipped into his line of credit and called it stolen.

 

[Kashchei]

I just had experience with this (a dispute to a recent sale, judged last week in my favor) so I'll post. I had someone claim that the mouse on the computer I sold him was defective. This was bunk--the mouse worked fine--but this was his way of getting back at me since he was pissed I wouldn't let him pick up the machine in person to save on shipping (he seemed a bit creepy and this thread made me even happier I stuck to my guns). Once I decided not to negotiate with him and allowed Paypal to open an investigation, they automatically deducted the sale price from my account. I had cleared it out at the time, so my balance went into negative numbers (they didn't try to get money from my bank account).

Paypal never said this, but they didn't resolve the case until I brought my account balance to zero. Once I did that, the following day the case was resolved in my favor and the sale price was redeposited in my Paypal account.

 

[shu82]

Ok, so that is true. I will definitely ship signed confirmation from now on. Local pickup with signature. Good info.

 

[desenso]

This is really unfortunate.... I've certainly learned to be much more cautious, now, too!

 

[fluidedge]

put another mac pro up there and get him to buy it again. Take 3 of your largest friends and kick the crap out of him. Then the police will arrive and he'll start crying.

 

[2jaded2care]

Really out of line to pin any of this on PayPal.

They VERY clearly explain that the only way to deliver the product safely is by shipping to the seller's confirmed PayPal address, and that YOU are taking responsibility for the entire transaction if you ignore that advice.

It's tough when ignoring that advice costs you, but you can't go to PayPal and say "I disregarded your instructions, and I want you to protect me even though you told me that you could not protect me if I disregarded your instructions!".

I understand PayPal can't cover a loss such as this without any proof that the item changed hands, but I would hope that they have some mechanism to weed out these scam artists so they can't continue indefinitely with this. Otherwise, it will hurt eBay and PayPal in the long run.

"PayPal and eBay had better clean things up and start taking care of their customers if they want to stay in business, the scammers are hitting a lot of people."

I think they are doing OK. Fraud is probably in the tenth or hundredth of a percent of total transactions. Probably lower than the rate of bad checks passed/received in brick-and-mortar stores... that is, a seller who uses eBay/PayPal exclusively has LESS fraud loss than a seller who operates a traditional store.

This probably refers to fraudulent sellers more than buyers, but according to the Federal Trade Commission site:

"Among the thousands of consumer fraud complaints the FTC receives every year, those dealing with online auction fraud consistently rank near the top of the list."

I'd say eBay and PayPal do have a problem, and, like identity theft, it seems to be getting worse.

 

[ArtOfWarfare]

consider meeting the other victims and... collectivly go to the police?

I've never had anything like this happen before and I've never heard of it before...

but I think I would do something along those lines if something that cost that much was stolen.

 

[Cybergypsy]

I sell here and ebay, Most times I wait till its in my check account then have him pick it up or then i ship, I always do that....sorry for your loss!

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I would suggest talking to a lawyer about making this a civil case as well. I am willing to bet that you can sue for a fair amount more than the cost of the computer (go for the legal max), lawyer fees, and court cost and you might have a fairly good case against him. Even more so if you can prove he has done this crap before.

Also call the police again. You can prove you own the computer and prove that he did not pay you for it like agreed.

 

[dtdrpepper]

I understand PayPal can't cover a loss such as this without any proof that the item changed hands, but I would hope that they have some mechanism to weed out these scam artists so they can't continue indefinitely with this. Otherwise, it will hurt eBay and PayPal in the long run.

That mechanism is the confirmed address.

People should realize that when you are selling a pop item on ebay, like a computer or camcorder, you are going to capture the interest legitimate buyers and YOU ARE going to capture the interest of scammers. You can greatly minimize the risk of being taken and eliminate liability by following guidelines that are set up for your protection.

You need to maintain control and stick to the path. You can set an auction up for instant payment only with payment by PayPal limited to bidders with a confirmed address, and then only ship to the confirmed address. If you do it this way, your auction is insulated from people even attempting to bid without meeting the qualifications for the transaction.

A legitimate and honest buyer with a confirmed address can buy your item, a scammer cannot leave you holding the bag. They will contact you. They will give you sob stories. They will try to appeal to greed you might have. They will ask if they can meet you at McDonald's. Simply ignore anything that isn't the protected transaction that you defined.

 

[dtdrpepper]

I would suggest talking to a lawyer about making this a civil case as well.

Against who?

The piece of crap who "stole" the computer is unknown.

 

[Sun Baked]

Those big scary debt collectors you can send to somebody's house may work.

 

[dtdrpepper]

I'd put up another macbook on ebay and try to get this guy to nibble at it. Meet him in person again, kick his ***, call his mom fat, and steal his wallet

Ah, only in a perfect world...

I like that. I think it might actually have a chance. Set up right, if the guy is still operating, you might be able to snag him. You know that he's either in or willing to travel to a certain area.

Set up a new ebay account with a friend or relative and offer the same item with buy it now and reserve prices that only scammers would go for and see who pops up.

 

[synth3tik]

When I am selling something on ebay and a buyer wants to pick up the item as it does save some money on shipping charges I ask them to bring cash and in return I discount what paypal would have taken for the transaction. For something as a computer this can be a chunk of change and people usually are happy to just bring cash.

I have heard stories of people canceling transactions or submitting a claim that it was unauthorized. I guess it could be that the person used someone else's paypal account and the unauthorized claim could be legit, although highly unlikely. You should be able to get the persons information through their paypal account. I would do what you could to find them and take them to court. You have all the paypal transaction information through your email and once you find them you should have little problem with the case.

I wish you luck that really sucks, I hate shady people. They make everything harder and make us less thrusting of people.

 

[synth3tik]

now it turns out there have been 2 or 3 more victims after me from the same guy. One seller lost a $3100 mac book pro. I really hope they catch this guy somehow

You would think paypal would find all these big dollar unauthorized transactions suspicious.

 

[Keebler]

do you have record or your MPro's serial #? I would search for any mac pros being sold on ebay, here, craiglist etc... and create a new email address and fake persona wanting to buy. then ask for the serial to check for any applecare left (you can check on apple's site).

i know it's not much, but i'd be trying for everything to revenge on this f*ck.

good luck,
Keebler

 

[CashGap]

"I understand PayPal can't cover a loss such as this without any proof that the item changed hands, but I would hope that they have some mechanism to weed out these scam artists so they can't continue indefinitely with this. Otherwise, it will hurt eBay and PayPal in the long run."

The confirmed address is the mechanism. The seller chose to bypass it and take all the risk upon themselves.

Similar to removing the guard from a nail gun and complaining when you put one in your leg. Although juries will always blame someone with the last name of ", Inc." in a heartbeat, the guard was there to do a job and would have done the job had it not been removed.

"Among the thousands of consumer fraud complaints the FTC receives every year, those dealing with online auction fraud consistently rank near the top of the list."

Correct. They have a MUCH better paper-trail than most consumer frauds, and are much easier to report. This is a case of adverse selection. eBay is an electronic yard sale. If it were possible to report yard-sale fraud, it would dwarf eBay problems. If shoplifting could be reported to the FTC, it would dwarf eBay problems. Etc.

 

[2jaded2care]

Not to be overly contentious here, as I do understand that the OP did not follow rules, but I do think that eBay and PayPal have a problem. Of course, this type of scam is hard to prove, but if a "registered user" is repeatedly buying large-ticket items, then claiming their account was hijacked and they're not responsible, but multiple sellers are saying a guy picked the item up (because they were nice/gullible enough to let him), well, I would hope PayPal's response would be more than "you sellers didn't follow the rules, too bad".

It's like if you pay to park somewhere, every lot has a sign that they're not responsible for anything. However, if your car is broken into or stolen, and you find out that other people have had the same thing happen, but management's only response is "read the sign", well, are you likely to ever park there again?

Of course I know that ethics are to business as artichokes are to space travel, but I'll tell you that these threads have dissuaded me from selling large-ticket items or, specifically, buying a prosumer camcorder over eBay. I'd rather pay a reliable online retailer than someone who could close his eBay account tomorrow. Probably eBay and PayPal don't think losing my business is a problem. Whatever.

And claiming that other marketplaces likely have more fraud isn't necessarily comforting to me, and probably not to those who have been scammed, either.

 

[dtdrpepper]

It's like if you pay to park somewhere, every lot has a sign that they're not responsible for anything. However, if your car is broken into or stolen, and you find out that other people have had the same thing happen, but management's only response is "read the sign", well, are you likely to ever park there again?

I'm not trying to be argumentative either, rather just enjoying the mental jog - I don't think your hypothetical parking lot scenario addresses the heart of the issue of responsibility. A better fit would be one where the parking lot has a sign that says "We are 100% responsible for items in your car so long as you roll up and lock up. If you leave your car open, you are responsible."

Under your scenario, the parking lot customer's only responsibility is to read the sign and their only choice is to park there or not. Once someone has chosen to park there, "Read the sign" is pretty much it. Under my scenario, their additional choice is to either act to be protected or not. That's a pretty powerful choice. In the case of a theft, management's response is "While we promise to watch every vehicle on the lot, we cannot investigate every person simply opening a vehicle. We investigate instances where people are observed forcing their way into locked vehicles. Since your car was left unlocked, there is nothing we can do."

You have every right to come to your own conclusions and decisions with regard to not using ebay, but it simply doesn't make sense to dismiss it in its entirety because ebay and PayPal do not take liability for transactions where people who didn't take available, recommended and prudent precautions were scammed.

That's kind of like saying the stories about people who have fallen for these Nigerian scam emails and been tricked into giving up their bank account information have dissuaded me from using a bank.

I'm curious, do you have some suggestion as to what you believe ebay and PayPal should do in situations such as the thread starter's? You say you hope the reaction would be more than to point out that the seller didn't follow the rules - What kind of reaction would you hope for? I have a hard time understanding where some people believe ebay or PayPal's responsibility ends or what they could/should have done in this particular case.

 

[2jaded2care]

I would hope that eBay/PayPal would suspend or close an account of a user who makes serial claims of "unauthorized access", when a string of frequent, no-problem sellers say that they were duped in a transaction involving that user -- even if the sellers didn't strictly follow the rules... Maybe this is done, but I'm not aware of it.

And eBay's "100 percent responsibility" is up to $2000 for an item purchased through a seller with at least 50 feedbacks, of which 98 percent is positive (or $5000 per year for sellers). This is somewhat reassuring, but when the item costs $4000, I'm not one to gamble with losing the difference.

As I said, I will generally buy on eBay from seemingly reliable sellers up to $100, after that, odds are I won't bid.

And I did think of something the OP can do, other than leaving neutral or negative feedback (with an explanation). This may bend eBay's rules and be somewhat time-consuming, but they could look at the person's feedback and find out what items the user is likely to bid on. Then they could try to find any auctions this person is bidding on, and email the seller to let them know what happened, and not to allow a local pick-up. Doesn't get any money back, but might make the OP feel better.

 

[adroit]

I'm not trying to be argumentative either, rather just enjoying the mental jog - I don't think your hypothetical parking lot scenario addresses the heart of the issue of responsibility. A better fit would be one where the parking lot has a sign that says "We are 100% responsible for items in your car so long as you roll up and lock up. If you leave your car open, you are responsible."

Under your scenario, the parking lot customer's only responsibility is to read the sign and their only choice is to park there or not. Once someone has chosen to park there, "Read the sign" is pretty much it. Under my scenario, their additional choice is to either act to be protected or not. That's a pretty powerful choice. In the case of a theft, management's response is "While we promise to watch every vehicle on the lot, we cannot investigate every person simply opening a vehicle. We investigate instances where people are observed forcing their way into locked vehicles. Since your car was left unlocked, there is nothing we can do."

No, I wouldn't expect the parking lot operator to do anything in that situation.

However, if there are multiple reports of thefts in a parking lot with a clear description/identification of the person who is doing the stealing I would expect the parking lot operator to at least follow up on it.

 

[desenso]

I would suggest talking to a lawyer about making this a civil case as well. I am willing to bet that you can sue for a fair amount more than the cost of the computer (go for the legal max), lawyer fees, and court cost and you might have a fairly good case against him. Even more so if you can prove he has done this crap before.

Also call the police again. You can prove you own the computer and prove that he did not pay you for it like agreed.

This is bad legal advice. You shouldn't make guesses about what he can sue for. Retaining an attorney for the purpose of a civil suit against someone who stole a $2500 computer is absolutely ludicrous. The lawyer will have billed that much by the end of the second day that he is working on the case. Plus, the guy that he's going against is probably totally judgement proof, since, you know, he's a friggin eBay scammer. No attorney in the world would take this on a contingency.

But I like your optimism for the legal profession! Keep it up!

 

[teleromeo]

just a couple of thoughts.

Why did you agree to and him over the machine in a macdonalds and not at your or his home ? When someone buys a computer at that price, you should expect they want to test it.

Always consider those new methods of paying as unsafe and try to receive the money in cash or on your bank account before you hand over your goods. Years ago my father sold an expensive macine for me when I was on vacation and he went to the bank with the cheque before allowing the buyer into my house and moving it out.

Go back to the police. Sending you away telling you they do not consider this as a crime is a farce. You sold a computer for quite a lot of money and you didn't get it. Somebody stole something from you, at least they should file it and investigate it until some point. I'm sure paypal registered the ip of the person that made the transactions.

 

[Sun Baked]

Go back to the police. Sending you away telling you they do not consider this as a crime is a farce. You sold a computer for quite a lot of money and you didn't get it. Somebody stole something from you, at least they should file it and investigate it until some point. I'm sure paypal registered the ip of the person that made the transactions.

They should at least take the information and enter it into the database, like a break-in they should at least get the info and evidence even if they don't investigate -- which likely they won't until a stink is raised or somebody brings them a good complete slam dunk case.

The info and evidence is useful, since the idiots eventually get caught ... and your theft helps make it a larger case than the $50 and time served type case.

---

However, talking directly to the local internet scam unit may work a bit better.

 

[ceiph]

yeah i gatta say even though its been said

for some reason high priced items i sell on creigslist and only take cash

so in the case you should have told him bring cash.... if he tells you he wants to use his credit card well thats easy to

tell him send that money from his credit card to paypal, than pay pal to his checking account, than cash..

theres NO excuse why a local pickup shouldn't be cash,

so maybe this doesn't help you but it may help others