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by far much less money than what is lost due Aplle Pod...
Bu I meant it not just a lock-down measure, is to introduce a differentiation factor to the mac, as these extensions will enable features embeded or previously included into the A11 soc.

a) I'm not sure there are any features unique to the A11 soc that Intel or AMD do not already have that relate to the instruction set.
b) Even if there were, the answer would be the A series, not some bizzaro custom instruction set. If Apple wants A series features then they'd use an A series.

They don't need to go to AMD to design some brand new processor that acts kind of like an A series processor when they have access to real A series processors.

The only thing that would make any remote sense would be if AMD were actually making workstation grade A series chips. That might actually make sense.

But... the rumor mill points to Apple staying on x86 for the high end for now, even if it's not Intel's chips. But with ARM Macs it seems coming on the low end, there would be absolutely no reason for Apple to throw a custom architecture into the mix on top of that.
 
But again, Apple knows that people who do Hackintosh aren’t interested in Apple hardware anyway so why bother. Get rid of Hackintosh and they’re all switching to Windows anyway so what does Apple gain.

I think you’re mostly right except for this point, as someone who has a hackintosh I also have a MBP, iPhone, iPad, and AirPods. I buy most of my software off of the App Store as well. I’ve had a MacPro in the past. Apple made a mistake in not updating the Mac Pro in a more Pro way, which they’ve obviously seen the error of their ways and trying to fix in 2019.... well here’s hoping anyway
 
remember they are using Metal for this.

Metal isn’t a panacea, or some magic way to overcome a hardware capability shortfall. The “Metal as saviour” idea within the Mac comment-o-sphere (not that I’m accusing you of this) requires us to believe that the Windows 3D, graphics and driver system is so weighed down with inefficiency, that Apple can “intelligent design” a perfectly formed solution that’ll be faster on weaker hardware.

I suspect (don’t know, but suspect) the opposite is true - the Windows world is a red in tooth & claw evolutionary hotbox, where every last morsel of performance has been exploited, and there’s no fat for Apple to “cut”.
 
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I think you’re mostly right except for this point, as someone who has a hackintosh I also have a MBP, iPhone, iPad, and AirPods. I buy most of my software off of the App Store as well. I’ve had a MacPro in the past. Apple made a mistake in not updating the Mac Pro in a more Pro way, which they’ve obviously seen the error of their ways and trying to fix in 2019.... well here’s hoping anyway
It may not be vey clear but I think that he was referring to the desktop/tower Mac hardware (computers).
 
A Blast From The Past!
I don't think Mago, Zarniwoop and Koyoot have all been in the same thread since these three were taken down from Pep Boys! :D

MMJ.jpg
 
iMacs could move to Ryzen 2XXX series APU or Ryzen 2700 + Vega 24cu (same as on the Intel-Amd APU i7-8809G ) for the iMac 5K, on the long the iMac Pro should move to Threadripper/Vega 20 if they want it to keep the "workstation" status.

While everybody knows (or suspects) Apple is co-developing a range of custom APU with AMD, maybe even with custom instruction set.
AMD APU with embedded T2 or its successor will do the same...

iToy's power has come from the co-processors. That is where Mac's are going as well. Been saying that here for years. Sorry for repeating myself... :p

Metal for macOS treats even iGPU as a dGPU, because Intel doesn't support hUMA. This is one of the biggest differences between iOS and macOS. That could change with AMD and give Mac's a new energy.

A Blast From The Past!
I don't think Mago, Zarniwoop and Koyoot have all been in the same thread since these three were taken down from Pep Boys! :D

View attachment 762030

Thank you for "the honor" of being part of the three amigos....

I had to educate myself about the Pep boys... they don't have much reputation here in Europe.
 
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But... the rumor mill points to Apple staying on x86 for the high end for now, even if it's not Intel's chips. But with ARM Macs it seems coming on the low end, there would be absolutely no reason for Apple to throw a custom architecture into the mix on top of that.
There are three vendors that have x86 chips:
1) Intel
2) AMD
3)VIA/Zhaoxin

1) Intel does not have any reliable roadmap for their future chips, because of 10 nm failure. If Apple is shying away from Intel, then...
3) VIA is no-go. They do design chips the same way as ARM does: fabless company that licenses the designs to everybody who pays them.
Then we are at:
2) AMD has access to fabs, latest architecture, features, IPC, and... they are Semi-Custom company, that can design any chip for specific request from any Vendor, if they will get payed.

If Apple wants to design their own, custom hardware the best place is AMD. But IMO - its way to much hassle. Easier would be adopting AMD chips from the get go on their computers.
 
The only thing that would make any remote sense would be if AMD were actually making workstation grade A series chips. That might actually make sense.
They are in, AMD showed it in roadmap 3yr ago, it has ti come later likely with Vega 20 in a 2p APU solution for HPC Hexascale market.
 
If Apple wants to design their own, custom hardware the best place is AMD. But IMO - its way to much hassle. Easier would be adopting AMD chips from the get go on their computers.

I'm in agreement that if Apple is leaving Intel, AMD's x86 chips will likely be their next solution.

They are in, AMD showed it in roadmap 3yr ago, it has ti come later likely with Vega 20 in a 2p APU solution for HPC Hexascale market.

I think Apple is still likely to use an x86 chip from AMD, if they switch, for the high end, with low end on A series processors.

I think Apple will punt on the high end until they feel confident in their own A series chips on workstations, which could be a long time or never.

Regardless, there is no use for a custom instruction set. If they want to lock Hackintosh out, they'll just require a secure boot process, which will slow the Hackintosh people down a lot more (and is likely going to happen anyway over the next decade.)

Even then, we're not talking A series CPUs, just AMD's ARM line. Probably would be fine, but still would be strange that Apple would go with a purely AMD design. But I think the Mac Pro switching to ARM is very unlikely, especially given that the next Mac Pro is supposed to ship before the ARM transition even starts (assuming Apple even starts the move to ARM on time, or doesn't just smooth things over with Intel.)
[doublepost=1526589500][/doublepost]
Metal for macOS treats even iGPU as a dGPU, because Intel doesn't support hUMA. This is one of the biggest differences between iOS and macOS.

I did not know that. That's fairly ridiculous.
 
I'm seeing some reviewers on YouTube who paid 8K for an iMacPro display computer. Outrageous!!! Sure it's somewhat fast, but not much for gaming and way too expensive for the lackluster GPU performance for 3D software. Apple cannot see that past a few diehard users this pricetage to performance cannot fly with companies that need workstations, and small business power users like me. I'd rather stay on MacOS, but it's looking like I'll bite the bullet and go full WinOS if the Mac Pro is a pooch like the trash can. And I'm not going to mortgage my house to pay for it Apple, either!!!

Sorry for the rant, but Apple is a multi billion dollar company that is failing to innovate against the competition and is leaning too heavily on their portable smart phone/tablet market. Even in phones and tablets they are not matching some of the features of the competition.


You are aware of how much it would cost to build an equivalent PC, right?


What is the point of this nonsensical thread, again? To provide a 104th outlet for people who are unaware that Apple is working on a new Mac Pro to type poorly-spelled, poorly-worded stream-of-consciousness rants about nonsense? Because the other 103 weren't good enough?
 
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There are three vendors that have x86 chips:
1) Intel
2) AMD
3)VIA/Zhaoxin

1) Intel does not have any reliable roadmap for their future chips, because of 10 nm failure. If Apple is shying away from Intel, then...
This is based on your non-disclosure presentations from Intel? (Spoiler: I get NDA presentations from my HP/Intel reps, and there's definitely a roadmap but of course no NDA presentation has a firm timetable.)

3) VIA is no-go. They do design chips the same way as ARM does: fabless company that licenses the designs to everybody who pays them.
Yep - "fabless", the kiss of death for silicon vendors.

Then we are at:
2) AMD has access to fabs, latest architecture, features, IPC, and... they are Semi-Custom company, that can design any chip for specific request from any Vendor, if they will get payed.
Ooops! AMD is fabless. Kiss of death.
 
You are aware of how much it would cost to build an equivalent PC, right?


What is the point of this nonsensical thread, again? To provide a 104th outlet for people who are unaware that Apple is working on a new Mac Pro to type poorly-spelled, poorly-worded stream-of-consciousness rants about nonsense? Because the other 103 weren't good enough?
Surely you understand what a forum is?? Informal back fence discussions. I wasn't aware there was a limit of discussion on topics...oh, there isn't. If you are bored with this topic, why post here!!?

Oh, and here's a link to Grammarly, you need it more than I do based upon your post.

https://www.grammarly.com/
 
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While you are all piling out of the MPs, it looks like my brother is going to get a 4,1. Nothing else in Apple's lineup that he particularly wants right now. Pretty sad.
 
There are three vendors that have x86 chips:
1) Intel
2) AMD
3)VIA/Zhaoxin

1) Intel does not have any reliable roadmap for their future chips, because of 10 nm failure. If Apple is shying away from Intel, then...
3) VIA is no-go. They do design chips the same way as ARM does: fabless company that licenses the designs to everybody who pays them.
Then we are at:
2) AMD has access to fabs, latest architecture, features, IPC, and... they are Semi-Custom company, that can design any chip for specific request from any Vendor, if they will get payed.

If Apple wants to design their own, custom hardware the best place is AMD. But IMO - its way to much hassle. Easier would be adopting AMD chips from the get go on their computers.

Do you really believe what you write?!
AMD is barely catching up with what Intel has on technology level and far behind on the financials….
 
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This is based on your non-disclosure presentations from Intel? (Spoiler: I get NDA presentations from my HP/Intel reps, and there's definitely a roadmap but of course no NDA presentation has a firm timetable.)


Yep - "fabless", the kiss of death for silicon vendors.


Ooops! AMD is fabless. Kiss of death.
Nvidia is also fabless. Apple is also fabless. I guess they are all going down, according to you.

You can have any roadmaps you like from anybody. If Intel is not able to manufacture any of the stuff presented in those presentations - you can put them into toilet. Educate yourself first about Intel's future process, then talk. Murthy Reduchintala has spoken few days ago, that 10 nm is not going out for next 12-18 months, because they cannot get it to work on proper yields, and they cannot give any timetable for it, because "They simply don't know the answer". Only 7 nm gives some hope for Intel, thankfully, they started again putting R&D resources in it, not the way 10 nm got them, and it gives glimpses of hope.
Do you really believe what you write?!
AMD is barely catching up with what Intel has on technology level and far behind on the financials….
Funnily enough, this same rhetoric is going through Intel Management, and was going over past 2-3 years.

A giant without process, has legs from clay.

AMD Barely catching up to Intel? Sales are saying something different... But that is not a matter for this post.

Intel cannot put out 10 nm products out for next few years. Intel will compete with 7 nm products from other companies, with their own 14 nm products.

What this means: AMD will have 64 Core server CPU, with slightly higher IPC than Skylake architecture, clocking as high as all of Lakes from Intel. Best what Intel will come up with is 28-32 core CPU.
Consumer: AMD can have up to 4.8 GHz Turbo state single core CPU with 16 cores on 7 nm process, for AM4 platform, that has higher IPC, than Skylake architecture. Barely, but higher. Intel can have here 8 Core/16 Thread CPU, that clocks to 4.8 GHz single core, with Skylake IPC, on LGA1151 platform.

Who do you think has technological advantage in this scenario? Its not imaginative. Its REALITY, which will occur in 2019, because the roadmaps are confirmed. We are not talking about today. Apple does not care about it, hence why they are dropping Intel in their desktop lineup. Are you sure it is not because AMD has technological advantage slated for the future, because Intel cannot manufacture anything on 10 nm process, and 7 nm is a mist at this point? And remember 10 nm is not going out for next 1.5 years, and is HVM 2020 right now. Which is exact year, when Apple wants to start dropping Intel. If you would be on Apples side, and know that Intel has manufacturing problems, and you solely rely on him, would you not switch to another vendor who will have technological advantage, and will have manufacturing capability of actually delivering the chips?

Guys, all of this has been already written in tech/financial world. Why are you asleep and uneducated about this? Whole 10 nm Fiasco, and the fact, that Intel will lose technological advantage they had for past decade shows you incompetence of their management staff, and teaches us all, how technological advantage can go "poof" in just two years, when you management staff is incompetent, and full of themselves.

Read up what happened, what Intel though about AMD, Zen, competition, process lead, why they fed with money 14 nm process, to increase yield(and Margins), at the expense of 10 and 7 nm processes, which effects we see today, and will see for another 1.5 years. Because of the stage we are right now, 7 nm is not dead yet, and can be fixed. 10 could be revolutionary process, but Intel bite a bit too much it could chew(2.7 times denser logic, vs 14 nm process, which is ridiculous looking from grand scheme of things).

If I would be Intel I would completely scrap the 10 nm, and go straight full on for 7 nm.
 
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Intel cannot put out 10 nm products out for next few years. Intel will compete with 7 nm products from other companies, with their own 14 nm products.
IMHO no FAB will deliver 7nm in quantity by at least 4 year, we could see first some ARM SOC and Ram and Flash modules on 7nm process but aimed at lower volumes than GPU and mainstream CPUs (specially server CPUs are the latest to adopt a new process), even AMD is planning to go first to 12nm (ryzen 2, TR2/Epyc2) then *maybe* 7nm (I bet you they push back and step into 10nm before going to 7nm), as smaller the feature size the challenges rise exponentially, is not matter of money, patents or luck, electronics is reaching the limits of miniaturization, as smaller more difficult (it could stop at 3-4nm).

AMDs Zen uArch is better than current Intel uArch but not by a Magnitude Order, while I dont see Intel offering meaningful improvements soon (with except to add more cores and lower core/$ cost).
 
You knocked VIA for being fabless....
Reading Comprehension. Where did I knocked them about it? Only YOU read this in my post.
IMHO no FAB will deliver 7nm in quantity by at least 4 year, we could see first some ARM SOC and Ram and Flash modules on 7nm process but aimed at lower volumes than GPU and mainstream CPUs (specially server CPUs are the latest to adopt a new process), even AMD is planning to go first to 12nm (ryzen 2, TR2/Epyc2) then *maybe* 7nm (I bet you they push back and step into 10nm before going to 7nm), as smaller the feature size the challenges rise exponentially, is not matter of money, patents or luck, electronics is reaching the limits of miniaturization, as smaller more difficult (it could stop at 3-4nm).

AMDs Zen uArch is better than current Intel uArch but not by a Magnitude Order, while I dont see Intel offering meaningful improvements soon (with except to add more cores and lower core/$ cost).
Is this your opinion, or educated opinion? ;)

Samsung started 7 nm volume manufacturing. TSMC is undergoing 7 nm volume production TODAY. Nvidia MIGHT release next generation GPUs on this very process. Nothing here is confirmed. Current rumor is that next gen. Nvidia GPUs are coming out in July. 7 nm Vega is coming Q4 2018. GloFo should start 7 nm HP VP in July-August. And 7 nm CPUs should come Q1-Q2 2019 from AMD on this node.

Where does this: "nobody will have 7 nm in quantity by at least 4 years" comes from?
 
Nvidia is also fabless. Apple is also fabless. I guess they are all going down, according to you.

You can have any roadmaps you like from anybody. If Intel is not able to manufacture any of the stuff presented in those presentations - you can put them into toilet. Educate yourself first about Intel's future process, then talk. Murthy Reduchintala has spoken few days ago, that 10 nm is not going out for next 12-18 months, because they cannot get it to work on proper yields, and they cannot give any timetable for it, because "They simply don't know the answer". Only 7 nm gives some hope for Intel, thankfully, they started again putting R&D resources in it, not the way 10 nm got them, and it gives glimpses of hope.
Funnily enough, this same rhetoric is going through Intel Management, and was going over past 2-3 years.

A giant without process, has legs from clay.

AMD Barely catching up to Intel? Sales are saying something different... But that is not a matter for this post.

Intel cannot put out 10 nm products out for next few years. Intel will compete with 7 nm products from other companies, with their own 14 nm products.

What this means: AMD will have 64 Core server CPU, with slightly higher IPC than Skylake architecture, clocking as high as all of Lakes from Intel. Best what Intel will come up with is 28-32 core CPU.
Consumer: AMD can have up to 4.8 GHz Turbo state single core CPU with 16 cores on 7 nm process, for AM4 platform, that has higher IPC, than Skylake architecture. Barely, but higher. Intel can have here 8 Core/16 Thread CPU, that clocks to 4.8 GHz single core, with Skylake IPC, on LGA1151 platform.

Who do you think has technological advantage in this scenario? Its not imaginative. Its REALITY, which will occur in 2019, because the roadmaps are confirmed. We are not talking about today. Apple does not care about it, hence why they are dropping Intel in their desktop lineup. Are you sure it is not because AMD has technological advantage slated for the future, because Intel cannot manufacture anything on 10 nm process, and 7 nm is a mist at this point? And remember 10 nm is not going out for next 1.5 years, and is HVM 2020 right now. Which is exact year, when Apple wants to start dropping Intel. If you would be on Apples side, and know that Intel has manufacturing problems, and you solely rely on him, would you not switch to another vendor who will have technological advantage, and will have manufacturing capability of actually delivering the chips?

Guys, all of this has been already written in tech/financial world. Why are you asleep and uneducated about this? Whole 10 nm Fiasco, and the fact, that Intel will lose technological advantage they had for past decade shows you incompetence of their management staff, and teaches us all, how technological advantage can go "poof" in just two years, when you management staff is incompetent, and full of themselves.

Read up what happened, what Intel though about AMD, Zen, competition, process lead, why they fed with money 14 nm process, to increase yield(and Margins), at the expense of 10 and 7 nm processes, which effects we see today, and will see for another 1.5 years. Because of the stage we are right now, 7 nm is not dead yet, and can be fixed. 10 could be revolutionary process, but Intel bite a bit too much it could chew(2.7 times denser logic, vs 14 nm process, which is ridiculous looking from grand scheme of things).

If I would be Intel I would completely scrap the 10 nm, and go straight full on for 7 nm.


I've seen firsthand the demise of very big powerful tech companies. Intel could go down or split or whatever.. no one is immune, but your insights are armchair QB level.
 
I've seen firsthand the demise of very big powerful tech companies. Intel could go down or split or whatever.. no one is immune, but your insights are armchair QB level.
Prove me wrong then, instead of spiting out something like this. Show that their 10 nm process is fine and dandy.

P.S. Those are not my insights but those are insights from tech/financial analysts, with insider info. All of what I have written is what they have written. You can even get, information about what happened at Intel management when there were discussions about competition, and their own process tech.

Funnily enough, financial world reacted today. Intel today down 1.3%, while AMD 2.5% up. As always - they are 2 weeks behind everything people say. Why did it reacted tho? Because financial world in Intel's struggles sees potential for AMD's growth.
 
What this means: AMD will have 64 Core server CPU, with slightly higher IPC than Skylake architecture, clocking as high as all of Lakes from Intel. Best what Intel will come up with is 28-32 core CPU.
This is nice - but who really needs a 64 core workstation?

There are lots of complaints about workstation software that struggles to utilize more than a few cores, and recommendations here on MR to go for "low core count fast clock" CPUs for many popular apps. (The Xeon-W seems nice, though, because the higher core count processors have a higher Turbo clock than the 8-core.)

Apple is unlikely to go back into the server business, so why would a 64 core CPU be interesting? Even the 18 core Xeon in the iMac Pro is overkill for most workstation apps.
 
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This is nice - but who really needs a 64 core workstation?

There are lots of complaints about workstation software that struggles to utilize more than a few cores, and recommendations here on MR to go for "low core count fast clock" CPUs for many popular apps. (The Xeon-W seems nice, though, because the higher core count processors have a higher Turbo clock than the 8-core.)

Apple is unlikely to go back into the server business, so why would a 64 core CPU be interesting. Even the 18 core Xeon in the iMac Pro is overkill for most workstation apps.
You are joking?

The demand shows that there is not only demand for such hardware, but also people are willing to pay premium for this type of hardware.
 
This is nice - but who really needs a 64 core workstation?

There are lots of complaints about workstation software that struggles to utilize more than a few cores, and recommendations here on MR to go for "low core count fast clock" CPUs for many popular apps. (The Xeon-W seems nice, though, because the higher core count processors have a higher Turbo clock than the 8-core.)

Apple is unlikely to go back into the server business, so why would a 64 core CPU be interesting? Even the 18 core Xeon in the iMac Pro is overkill for most workstation apps.

Those folks complaining have a very, very limited definition of what is "workstation" software. I am in the 3D art world, and we are all about cores and ram - there is NEVER enough.

In the 3D art world, even the "hobbyist" (where I am at) levels of software will use every core and every byte of ram that I can throw at it.

Which makes an iMac (of any variety) a non-starter. Can you tell that I own a rather large stack of Apple hardware that has died because Sir Idiot-boy doesn't grasp the concept of heat dissipation?
 
we are all about cores and ram - there is NEVER enough.

This. It’s also about multitasking while waiting for a sim or render to finish.

Truth is it’s mainly about the sweet spot..which is where the likes of threadripper, Xeons and i9s shine.. fast enough low core count speed + multi core speed that leaves the 4/6 cores in the dust.

Also threadripper x 2 slots... c’mon AMD.
 
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