Mac Pro too late for me

[deconstruct60]

You do realize that if you run in 32bit mode you're limited to a single thread/process that can not exceed 4GB of RAM?

A thread is not a process. Multipe processes can be use to do big jobs. Just ask the folks who wrote Oracle DB or Postgres or Apache. In computational metrics the bigger issue is the crippled, small number of x86 registers in 32 bit mode.

But in regards to the MacPro and Tim Cook's comments, this would seem to contradict those:

No MacPro's in Europe

Actually that would highly the essential need for Apple to come out with a new design since the old one isn't not in compliance. Therefore, they couldn't get away with squatting on the design for a longer period of time.

It would have been slightly less embarrassing if the new Mac Pro arrives before the ban goes into place but if not then it isn't much worse since the Osborne effect invoked serves to kill off sales anyway.

Mac computer sales down 20+%

iMac production glitches don't have much if anything to do with Mac Pro production introduction or not. Apple sold 700K less iMacs because they couldn't make them fast enough. That causes a bubble.

Most likely Apple didn't start to make a new Mac Pro until 2012 and that's why it may not arrive before have to retire from Europe for a time. ( it is demonstrative of why it would be a dubious plan to purposely wait for Ivy Bridge Xeon E5s ).

... but eternal hope doesn't solve professional problems of today.

The vast majority of Mac Pro users don't have to buy a new machine in the next 24 hours, today.

 

[PowerPCMacMan]

This can do in either direction. So far Cook has mentioned that Apple is working on something wonderful for Pro users.. but no where did he mention it will be a NEW MAC PRO. We don't know what the future will be for the Mac Pro.

But right about now its pretty gloomy in Europe and for those who need Mac Pros over there. Do I think the Mac Pro's days are numbered? Yes, but I also see the possibility of that "wonderful" replacement to the Mac Pro as some hybrid iMac Pro or Mac Mini Pro...

I will tell you this though.. Expect to see a whole new Mac Pro that will be different than what we all have now. If Apple does bring out a new Pro machine and its a lot smaller and not as upgradable, I think the writing will then be on the wall.. Many will still hold on to their 6 and 12-core machines, but the Mac Pro at that stage as we know it will cease to exist.

God only knows what will happen if Apple FAILS the pro users.

A thread is not a process. Multipe processes can be use to do big jobs. Just ask the folks who wrote Oracle DB or Postgres or Apache. In computational metrics the bigger issue is the crippled, small number of x86 registers in 32 bit mode.






Actually that would highly the essential need for Apple to come out with a new design since the old one isn't not in compliance. Therefore, they couldn't get away with squatting on the design for a longer period of time.

It would have been slightly less embarrassing if the new Mac Pro arrives before the ban goes into place but if not then it isn't much worse since the Osborne effect invoked serves to kill off sales anyway.




iMac production glitches don't have much if anything to do with Mac Pro production introduction or not. Apple sold 700K less iMacs because they couldn't make them fast enough. That causes a bubble.

Most likely Apple didn't start to make a new Mac Pro until 2012 and that's why it may not arrive before have to retire from Europe for a time. ( it is demonstrative of why it would be a dubious plan to purposely wait for Ivy Bridge Xeon E5s ).




The vast majority of Mac Pro users don't have to buy a new machine in the next 24 hours, today.

 

[deconstruct60]

This can do in either direction. So far Cook has mentioned that Apple is working on something wonderful for Pro users.. but no where did he mention it will be a NEW MAC PRO. We don't know what the future will be for the Mac Pro.

Frankly I think Cook made a huge mistake. He assumed that a significant fraction of Mac Pro users had common sense. The notion that he was not talking about the Mac Pro is just silly. People asked him a question about it and he answers with "will have something in later" for them... he is just not being redundant. If someone asks about a new mac mini and start talking about new Mac Pro that would be silly. Just as silly in the opposite direction.

Back in June Apple PR made clear Cook was talking about the Mac Pro

"... Apple PR has reached out and clarified that only the Mac Pro is expected to be next updated in 2013. ... "
https://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/1...c-pro-and-imac-designs-likely-coming-in-2013/

During the recent dust up about EU Mac Pros they pointed back to the same comments as to the eventual resolution.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/01/apple-to-stop-shipping-mac-pro-in-europe-on-march-1/

" ... Apple declined to give any further information about a potential Mac Pro replacement except to reiterate that it was "working on a pro product for later this year." ... "

The language of Apple's statements is obtuse because it is against corporate policy to directly talk about future products. That is an actual fact as oppose to wild hand waving.

But right about now its pretty gloomy in Europe and for those who need Mac Pros over there.

Why? If someone needs a Mac Pro they can buy one right now. If need it buy it. At that point the ban means nothing. Only the unprepared are being caught flat footed here. Apple gave a month's warning. And frankly that is only stops new shipments of Mac Pro. They can sell whatever is in inventory.

If EU buyers start buying at a bigger uptick pace Apple will probably ship more than normal Mac Pros there before the deadline. I'm sure there will be a small number of resellers that take the opportunity to engage in pricing speculation and stockpile a few extra boxes to unload at high pricing to the small few that get caught flat footed and can't wait.

Besides the vast majority of the moaning and groaning around here is about how the Mac Pro 2012 models aren't worth buying. Make up your minds. If it is not worth buying then really should not complain if it is being pulled from the market.

Do I think the Mac Pro's days are numbered? Yes, but I also see the possibility of that "wonderful" replacement to the Mac Pro as some hybrid iMac Pro or Mac Mini Pro...

While possible, it is not very probable.

Apple needs to do exactly nothing for there to be a rack mountable Mac Mini.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacminiserver.html

They need to do exactly nothing for there to be a Mini with a couple of PCI-e slots. Same for adding PCI-e slots to the iMac.

The 2013 iMac and mini will get faster and more thread workload capable CPUs doing exactly nothing other than updating to new Haswell designs. Both will be more than capable of handling the same workloads that used to be assigned to most Mac Pro class machines 6-7 years ago.

I will tell you this though.. Expect to see a whole new Mac Pro that will be different than what we all have now.

Different really???? Hold the presses.

If Apple does bring out a new Pro machine and its a lot smaller and not as upgradable,

I actually do expect more than several 5-10 page threads here moaning here similar to those that occurred elsewhere when the 6 slot PowerMac 9600 disappeared. "It can't be a real PowerMac if it doesn't have 6 slots" , "slots are power " ... etc. etc.

There is a decent possibility that either the single CPU package Mac Pro will either loose a slot or one of the x16 slots will turn into a x8 slot. We will here about how those missing 8-16 lanes are a sign of the apocalypse and that "Apple hates pros".

Nevermind that new x8 has just as much bandwidth as the old x16. Of that the new x4 has just as much bandwidth as an old x8.

There will also be much wailing that there is a GPU soldered to the motherboard. Again nevermind there is probably at least one x16 for your own GPU card of choice.

Also a some threads moaning about loss of at least one ODD bay when many dozens of threads right here advocate the use of the bay for SSD and HDD drives. The fact that Apple turn them into HDD/SSD bays it will be bad change.

but the Mac Pro at that stage as we know it will cease to exist.

a basic design that is based on 10 year old design assumptions... it probably will cease to exist. The technology available has changed substantially in 10 years.

God only knows what will happen if Apple FAILS the pro users.

Not sure the full scope, but I'm quite sure that most of these "pro" users will move on to complaining and being prima donnas about some other Apple product.

 

[maxosx]

I've been waiting patiently to replace my 2010 Mac Pro. It will be interesting to see just what the new model is comprised of.

 

[goodcow]

The vast majority of Mac Pro users don't have to buy a new machine in the next 24 hours, today.

I work at a University and everything is on four-year purchase cycles. Our MacPro's just ended four-year AppleCare coverage on January 30th. We need new machines, not just for warranty purposes, but because they're getting long in the tooth, but I don't want to blow $20K on "new" machines that are old.

 

[deconstruct60]

I work at a University and everything is on four-year purchase cycles.

Yes and everyone that is om a similar schedule that bought in the last 3 years aren't in the market to buy anything. The number of folks in that 3 year band are likely quite larger than those in the 1/4 of the cycle. The longer the cycle, the less weighting/leverage the individual cycles have.

No, it isn't optimal timing for a narrow subset of the user base, but it isn't all or likely even most users. Most folks who bought as needed on regular cycles are in good shape to ride out the gap in releases and out of the buying cycle for at least a year. Folks who went out their way to "game" the timing on buying something new aren't in quite so good shape. They gambled and lost.

not just for warranty purposes, but because they're getting long in the tooth, but I don't want to blow $20K on "new" machines that are old.

While a bit faster than a 2008 machine ( Jan 2009 ) a much larger falling out is going to be when 2009 owners on a 4 year cycle start looking for replacements in March-May of this year. That is why the notion of waiting on purpose for Ivy Bridge E5s (if Apple had something that was Sandy Bridge capable but squatted on it) is more than just a little loopy.


There is a large problem with the Mac Pro though if more users are shifting from 3-5 year cycles to 5-7 year cycles. The net number of folks buying Mac Pros per year would go down. It isn't going to materially matter much if 50% of the folks stay on the 4-year clock. If the rest go to much longer periods and it is an on going trend, then Apple will likely exit eventually.

 

[robains]

They gambled and lost.

In a professional market you don't gamble, especially when you don't need to gamble.

Your "wait" cycles make no sense at all ... are you sure your talking about professionals? In my experience, hardware upgrades are in the buget every year. Time is money.

 

[deconstruct60]

Your "wait" cycles make no sense at all ... are you sure your talking about professionals? In my experience, hardware upgrades are in the buget every year. Time is money.

the "wait" I mentioned about delaying for Ivy Bridge is not something I proposed made sense. Folks have posited that Apple would be better off delaying until those appear so that the new Mac Pro would be "better" somehow. No, that plan does not make sense. All the more so now that even the "fresh off the production line" versions of the current Mac Pro have been withdrawn from EU markets. ( used and refurbs are available, but that is clearly suboptimal. )

With respect to customers waiting years to replace Mac Pros, yes I am talking about waiting. You may be confusing a collection with instances. Years is on the instances.

So yes a yearly line item in the budget for some hardware. However, Budget to buy all new hardware for every seat every year (where seats are > 2) ? No. Most professional shops do not do that.

For example a shop that has 4 (or 40 . just a matter of changing the numbers) Mac Pro that have replaced 1/4 every year are decent shape if they now have

2008
2009
2010
2010


models. The 2008 can be replaced by a 2012 model and it will be faster if replacement budget roughly equivalent to old 2008 budget. Even a set up of
2009
2010
2010
2012

Either replacing the 2009 model with a 2012 will result in speed increases or dropping significant upgrades into the 2009 model if want a cheaper "DIY" option. ( CPU , RAM , PCI-e SSD , etc. )

Replacing >= 4 year old Mac Pro will lead to an increase in speed.

The shop can weight the alternative to migrating to another supplier and OS for a bigger boost, but that is always going to be there whether Apple had rev'ed the Mac Pro or not. A truely professional shop would evaluate the alternatives every years and make a wholistic decision.

Big bang, "rip everything out and replace with everything new" on a yearly basis? That isn't even close to a professionally run shop.


The reality though is that many Mac Pros are used in numbers like 1-2 for very small companies. And yes they are professionals. Few of those businesses have the revenue stream to profitably churn those machines every year. If that your definition of "pros" then it is your def that is deeply flawed.

 

[Derpage]

the "wait" I mentioned about delaying for Ivy Bridge is not something I proposed made sense. Folks have posited that Apple would be better off delaying until those appear so that the new Mac Pro would be "better" somehow. No, that plan does not make sense. All the more so now that even the "fresh off the production line" versions of the current Mac Pro have been withdrawn from EU markets. ( used and refurbs are available, but that is clearly suboptimal. )

With respect to customers waiting years to replace Mac Pros, yes I am talking about waiting. You may be confusing a collection with instances. Years is on the instances.

So yes a yearly line item in the budget for some hardware. However, Budget to buy all new hardware for every seat every year (where seats are > 2) ? No. Most professional shops do not do that.

For example a shop that has 4 (or 40 . just a matter of changing the numbers) Mac Pro that have replaced 1/4 every year are decent shape if they now have

2008
2009
2010
2010


models. The 2008 can be replaced by a 2012 model and it will be faster if replacement budget roughly equivalent to old 2008 budget. Even a set up of
2009
2010
2010
2012

Either replacing the 2009 model with a 2012 will result in speed increases or dropping significant upgrades into the 2009 model if want a cheaper "DIY" option. ( CPU , RAM , PCI-e SSD , etc. )

Replacing >= 4 year old Mac Pro will lead to an increase in speed.

The shop can weight the alternative to migrating to another supplier and OS for a bigger boost, but that is always going to be there whether Apple had rev'ed the Mac Pro or not. A truely professional shop would evaluate the alternatives every years and make a wholistic decision.

Big bang, "rip everything out and replace with everything new" on a yearly basis? That isn't even close to a professionally run shop.


The reality though is that many Mac Pros are used in numbers like 1-2 for very small companies. And yes they are professionals. Few of those businesses have the revenue stream to profitably churn those machines every year. If that your definition of "pros" then it is your def that is deeply flawed.

I want your job! lol

 

[evangw]

I have been shopping for a computer to have at my new job. It needed to be a DP workstation, with plenty of RAM/HDD expandability. I would have loved a Sandy Bridge E Mac Pro. Alas, one does not exist, so I went through Thinkmate instead.

Basic config of Thinkmate HPX XS8-2462:
2 x E5-2630s
128 GB (8x16GB) RAM -- another 8 free slots and expandable to 512 with 32 GB DIMMs, should the price ever fall and need arise.
1x1TB HDD -- Self install Ubuntu or maybe Biolinux (to give you an idea of what I do) as OS, 7 additional free drive bays.
NVIDIA GT 520 -- Primary use of this machine will be in terminal anyway...

Bought separately:
5x3TB HDD -- 4 will go into RAID5 (9 TB usable scratch space), one will go in my desk should a drive fail.
ViewSonic VA2431wm 24" LCD

Total system cost was just under $5500.

The new 12 core 2.4 Mac Pro with 96 GB of RAM, 4x3 TB HDDs would have cost just slightly less (~$5200), while the 12 core 2.66 would have been substantially more (~$6500). I know its been well documented the speed improvements now available with other vendors and the frustration of those of us that would rather use OSX that need a workstation, but I thought I'd post this user's frustration that cost Apple a potential sale.

Huh, I came to the Mac Pro thread to look for exactly the same thing (bioinformatics workstation) with exactly the same budget.

Wish I had any idea when new Mac Pros were coming out. I'd wait a month, but... ugh. Also cost a $5000 sale for Apple. (And significant goodwill.)


VVVV the money has to be spent soon-ish, but not until the end of April, but it's kind of silly to wait 2 months and then buy the same thing I could've bought today (i.e. a Dell workstation or similar). I'm in Europe FWIW but I wouldn't buy the 2009 Mac Pro even if they were for sale.

 

[deconstruct60]

Wish I had any idea when new Mac Pros were coming out. I'd wait a month, but... ugh. Also cost a $5000 sale for Apple. (And significant goodwill.)

If not time critical to make move another month has a good likelihood of providing significant value of information. Either Apple will move in a month or not likely for a long while.

If they were trying to avoid being embarrassed by the EU market withdraw then they probably have something close. These new Mac Pro oriented drivers appear for AMD 7000 series (and new card announced ) and K5000 are either a big push to keep folks in older Mac Pros longer or something new kicking off soon.

Apple may have missed an mid-Feb-early March launch target. It isn't like they haven't missed dates recently ( iMac). If showed up a month late that would pretty much be on track with recent efforts.

A month from now and no new Mac Pro, these cards are much more likely "finger in the dike" efforts. It isn't worth waiting around if have real short term needs.

 

[wallysb01]

Huh, I came to the Mac Pro thread to look for exactly the same thing (bioinformatics workstation) with exactly the same budget.

Wish I had any idea when new Mac Pros were coming out. I'd wait a month, but... ugh. Also cost a $5000 sale for Apple. (And significant goodwill.)

If you're anything like me, you probably won't regret moving now. This computer has been up and running for some time. I've already set it up to serve all the lab's data, nearly all bioinformatic tools are installed, and we've run a handfull of jobs on it already. I hacked OSX on virtual box, cloned over a few things from my Apple laptop, and I couldn't be happier. This is a slick machine and quiet too.

It was a little bit of a learning curve administering a linux server, but if you're familar with linux/unix and can follow some pretty good directions on the Ubuntu forums, its easily overcome.

FYI, for some of the bioinformatic tools I used to benchmark against my old 8-core 2.4 GHz Mac Pro, I saw several multiples in speed improvements. My guess is that OSX has significant overhead compared to linux, and linux code may just be better compared to equivalent OSX/UNIX code for these tools. Plus, I now have a faster scratch space for reading all those huge fastq files.

 

[FluJunkie]

FYI, for some of the bioinformatic tools I used to benchmark against my old 8-core 2.4 GHz Mac Pro, I saw several multiples in speed improvements. My guess is that OSX has significant overhead compared to linux, and linux code may just be better compared to equivalent OSX/UNIX code for these tools. Plus, I now have a faster scratch space for reading all those huge fastq files.

I've had Linux VMs running Mint perform significantly faster than the Mac Pro they're running on. There's some serious overhead.

 

[wallysb01]

I've had Linux VMs running Mint perform significantly faster than the Mac Pro they're running on. There's some serious overhead.

Yeah, not surprising after seeing my own results. I'm sure VMs have decent overhead, but not enough to make up for the gap between linux and OSX.

 

[deconstruct60]

If they were trying to avoid being embarrassed by the EU market withdraw then they probably have something close.

Of course they could be opting to wait for this one to bite them in the butt... So by Sept they have to do something .


http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/...ues_Xeon_3500_and_3600_server_processors.html

 

[wallysb01]

Of course they could be opting to wait for this one to bite them in the butt... So by Sept they have to do something .


http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/...ues_Xeon_3500_and_3600_server_processors.html

I guess that puts a little bit of a time limit on those wanting to replace the CPUs in their mac pros for the W3680/90.

 

[deconstruct60]

I guess that puts a little bit of a time limit on those wanting to replace the CPUs in their mac pros for the W3680/90.

unless want to round up a 1,000 friends and buy a whole tray. Then have till 2014.

I imagine there will be a eBay market for them but used parts has its risks. There are going to be some speculators though that will be liquidating overstock and inventories over time though.

 

[wallysb01]

unless want to round up a 1,000 friends and buy a whole tray. Then have till 2014.

I imagine there will be a eBay market for them but used parts has its risks. There are going to be some speculators though that will be liquidating overstock and inventories over time though.

Exactly, so we'll probably see prices for these CPU start to go up.

 

[robains]

So yes a yearly line item in the budget for some hardware. However, Budget to buy all new hardware for every seat every year (where seats are > 2) ? No. Most professional shops do not do that.

Big bang, "rip everything out and replace with everything new" on a yearly basis? That isn't even close to a professionally run shop.

The reality though is that many Mac Pros are used in numbers like 1-2 for very small companies. And yes they are professionals. Few of those businesses have the revenue stream to profitably churn those machines every year. If that your definition of "pros" then it is your def that is deeply flawed.

I don't know what "every" professional "shop" does, don't even pretend to know as I'm not interested. Even if I were interested, getting accurate data would be close to impossible and I wonder where you got your data to make those assumptions/conjecture?

I also said nothing about new hardware for every seat in "the shop" - again that's your projection of something that I never said. What I said is there will be a hardware budget. This budget will be distributed with lower end computers being replaced with higher end computers ... the quantity and number of replacements is unlikely to be ALL (except maybe those companies that are making VERY good profits). In my case it's usually 25-50%, but either way, it's new hardware and over a 3 year period most of the hardware would have been replaced in a continued cycle.

So exactly who are all these small 1-2 MacPro shops doing "Professional" work? I have yet bumped into any such shop within the past 2 years, but if you know they exist, please do share. Maybe they still do exist, but in the render business (3D animation, video editing, compression, etc.), if you fall behind you rarely catch up unless you change your platform convictions. They're just tools, get the best tool for the job and there is no way a MacPro is the best tool.

But again, if OSX seems to be a "professionals" requirement (and again, I would question any "professional" that is tied to a specific platform), then an intelligent "shop" would still buy more modern hardware for a lot less and run VM on it and load OSX or whatever OS they like ... they will however be constricted by OSX device support and worse yet OpenGL 3.2 (and yes we're on OpenGL 4.3 on other operating systems not Apple related).

I had no idea why a "professional" would want to live in the past, most of the professionals I know love the latest and greatest available NOW -- it enhances productivity and creativity.

 

[JordanNZ]

I don't know what "every" professional "shop" does, don't even pretend to know as I'm not interested. Even if I were interested, getting accurate data would be close to impossible and I wonder where you got your data to make those assumptions/conjecture?

I also said nothing about new hardware for every seat in "the shop" - again that's your projection of something that I never said. What I said is there will be a hardware budget. This budget will be distributed with lower end computers being replaced with higher end computers ... the quantity and number of replacements is unlikely to be ALL (except maybe those companies that are making VERY good profits). In my case it's usually 25-50%, but either way, it's new hardware and over a 3 year period most of the hardware would have been replaced in a continued cycle.

So exactly who are all these small 1-2 MacPro shops doing "Professional" work? I have yet bumped into any such shop within the past 2 years, but if you know they exist, please do share. Maybe they still do exist, but in the render business (3D animation, video editing, compression, etc.), if you fall behind you rarely catch up unless you change your platform convictions. They're just tools, get the best tool for the job and there is no way a MacPro is the best tool.

But again, if OSX seems to be a "professionals" requirement (and again, I would question any "professional" that is tied to a specific platform), then an intelligent "shop" would still buy more modern hardware for a lot less and run VM on it and load OSX or whatever OS they like ... they will however be constricted by OSX device support and worse yet OpenGL 3.2 (and yes we're on OpenGL 4.3 on other operating systems not Apple related).

I had no idea why a "professional" would want to live in the past, most of the professionals I know love the latest and greatest available NOW -- it enhances productivity and creativity.

In the audio world, running OSX is important.
And we are not upgrading our machines every year. Perhaps ever 3 years.

And while the spec version of OpenGL 4.3 has been released, there is nothing out there actually using it.

 

[robains]

In the audio world, running OSX is important.
And we are not upgrading our machines every year. Perhaps ever 3 years.

And while the spec version of OpenGL 4.3 has been released, there is nothing out there actually using it.

Why is OSX important for Audio work?

10-13 years ago I may have agreed with you because of MIDI and overall ability of OSX to provide a more accurate timing, but over the past 5-7 years that is a none-issue and most high end DAWs are using external timers/samplers and/or audio equipment so the computer itself isn't having to do as much work.

But, I wasn't trying to make an OSX vs. Windows debate ... this is a hardware debate about the lack of a MacPro and the "eternal" promises from Apple stringing people along for some reason I can't understand.

Personally I prefer OSX over Windows 7 ... Windows 8 is an abortion of a OS with a horrible UI. But what I prefer has nothing to do with what I'll work on/with ... business is business and you go with the best cost/performance/efficiency packages. That currently falls squarely and obviously in the PC/Win market.

Who knows, maybe that will change, but I'm certainly not going to "wait" for Apple to decide my fate, life's too short on a personal and professional level.

But ask yourself this, if "new hardware" isn't important, then why does Apple continue to churn out new iPhone's and iPads every year?

 

[Tutor]

Are we sheep or are we shepherds?

...
But ask yourself this, if "new hardware" isn't important, then why does Apple continue to churn out new iPhone's and iPads every year?

I asked myself that question and here's what I came up with -

Reason 1: Probably because demand for them is hugh and if demand for the Mac Pro was as hugh this thread would have no reason to exist. The Mac Pro is an overpriced niche machine for niche markets and is becoming more so as the second hand on our watches revolve. The market for "trucks" themselves are shrinking and for most an iPad or iPhone is all the computing power that most people need, it's just before those iToys hit the streets most people had/chose to purchase more computing power/capacity than they needed. All of this can be said about the other "truck" makers like Dell and HP, but unlike Apple they have no iToys to fall back on to keep their coffers filled. They don't have the luxury of making humongous profits even if they can't sell their trucks in Europe.

Reason 2: Tho' we're in love with Apple and have tried to be faithful, our beloved doesn't love us, but rather is in love with something else (hint: it rhymes with "honey") and hopefully we won't long remain blinded by our love. I suspect that for many like me who purchased Mac Pros in the past, we'll awaken one day and slap are heads and think, "I could have had a V8-core made by someone else, if not by myself." Even better, why not 4 x V8-cores?

The fate of sheep: Sheep get sheared to clothe the shepherd, then sheep get killed to feed the shepherd. I'd rather be clothe and feed, than be sheared and eaten.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
But ask yourself this, if "new hardware" isn't important, then why does Apple continue to churn out new iPhone's and iPads every year?

In the 3 years since the iPad came out, Apple has sold more iPads than Macs than over the previous decade. By Feb 2012 55 million

http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/16/ios-devices-in-2011-vs-macs-sold-it-in-28-years/

and on is track to sell 100M iPads this year.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/10/29/apple-forecast-to-sell-102m-ipads-194m-iphones-in-2013 ). That means the iPads by themselves will have past total Macs sold either late this year or sometime in 2014. Four years to do what the Mac did in 29-30.


It isn't the volume that is the major difference. It is the slope of the lines. They just in a different class. Frankly even the uptick on the Mac slope over the recent years is primarily driven by laptops. Not the Mac Pro.

You want to put the Mac Pro demand up next to that kind of demand? I'm hope you are using a log scale. It isn't even going to show up the chart if not. The "box with slots" have lines like the Apple II on that chart.

It isn't just yearly demand it is the potent size of the market. The number of people who can buy iOS devices is orders of magnitude larger than the average Mac Pro price. The vast majority don't have one. The potential market is vastly different. It isn't yearly churn to the current base that generates these numbers. It is the vast pool of new users filing into the queue over time each year. Basic phones , Symbian , and Blackberry have been eaten alive far more than Apple has sold repeat phones to the same customers.

If users were buying Mac Pros at 10% year-over-year growth rates Apple probably would revising them every year. They don't. In fact or last 5 years or so it likely isn't even consistent positive year over year growth.

It is the opposite trend. Mac Pro class users are sitting on the Mac Pros class machines in increasingly longer lifecycles. The renewals users in the class is about the only major source of growth. Selling solely into the current user base most likely will result in zero growth (there are periodic bubbles where folks retire some in mass but aggregates year over year user base is anemic. ) . It isn't just Apple. In the post 2008 recession market overall workstation growth has either been negative or anemic. Individual players have gotten some growth with some "deck chair reshuffling" where vendors just take share away from one another.

 

[deconstruct60]

Why is OSX important for Audio work?

10-13 years ago I may have agreed with you because of MIDI and overall ability of OSX to provide a more accurate timing, but over the past 5-7 years that is a none-issue and most high end DAWs are using external timers/samplers and/or audio equipment so the computer itself isn't having to do as much work.

The original NeXT computer come with a DSP processor on board. After a couple interations that got dropped.

With more SIMD, clock increases , and far better memory bandwidth current Intel CPUs are taking on more DSP workload. If can leverage GPGPU processors all the more so. For example :

http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-HD-native

The cards just do D2A and A2D while all the purely digital stuff is sent to the host. If offload too much back onto the host then could increase workload. However for many users the horsepower in their machine is often going under utilized and there are "spare" cycles to use. Adding in CPU and GPU cores more audio users with relatively recent and decent computers are not maxed out at all.


Also helps in that DSP specific code isn't too tightly coupled to a specific card which happens to use a specific DSP. x86 based plug-ins should work in general on next generation computers. (perhaps not optimally over time but it at least runs. )

If no DSP and RAM on board should be able to push the boards that push processing back to host to lower price points. Lower price points generally going to lead to larger growth rates.

 

[robains]

In the 3 years since the iPad came out, Apple has sold more iPads than Macs than over the previous decade. By Feb 2012 55 million
Image
http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/16/ios-devices-in-2011-vs-macs-sold-it-in-28-years/

and on is track to sell 100M iPads this year.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/10/29/apple-forecast-to-sell-102m-ipads-194m-iphones-in-2013 ). That means the iPads by themselves will have past total Macs sold either late this year or sometime in 2014. Four years to do what the Mac did in 29-30.


It isn't the volume that is the major difference. It is the slope of the lines. They just in a different class. Frankly even the uptick on the Mac slope over the recent years is primarily driven by laptops. Not the Mac Pro.

You want to put the Mac Pro demand up next to that kind of demand? I'm hope you are using a log scale. It isn't even going to show up the chart if not. The "box with slots" have lines like the Apple II on that chart.

It isn't just yearly demand it is the potent size of the market. The number of people who can buy iOS devices is orders of magnitude larger than the average Mac Pro price. The vast majority don't have one. The potential market is vastly different. It isn't yearly churn to the current base that generates these numbers. It is the vast pool of new users filing into the queue over time each year. Basic phones , Symbian , and Blackberry have been eaten alive far more than Apple has sold repeat phones to the same customers.

If users were buying Mac Pros at 10% year-over-year growth rates Apple probably would revising them every year. They don't. In fact or last 5 years or so it likely isn't even consistent positive year over year growth.

It is the opposite trend. Mac Pro class users are sitting on the Mac Pros class machines in increasingly longer lifecycles. The renewals users in the class is about the only major source of growth. Selling solely into the current user base most likely will result in zero growth (there are periodic bubbles where folks retire some in mass but aggregates year over year user base is anemic. ) . It isn't just Apple. In the post 2008 recession market overall workstation growth has either been negative or anemic. Individual players have gotten some growth with some "deck chair reshuffling" where vendors just take share away from one another.

You missed out on a key detail here ... iPhone = $200-$300, MacPro is $5000-$20,000. Also, another KEY piece of information you skipped over is that the profit margin on a MacPro is considerably higher than that of the iPhone or the iPad.

JordanNZ,

OpenGL 4.3 is being used, just NOT on OSX or iOS since it doesn't support it. But for the most part DX11 is used on the Windows side which is equivalent to OpenGL 4.x (with perhaps the exception of Cinema 4D folks who frankly are dragging their wheels in order to be Apple friendly and cross platform) ... too bad their Windows version is slaved to Apple's current support of OpenGL 3.x. Other competing products to C4D will view this an "opportunity" for them

deconstruct60,

Lower price points generally going to lead to larger growth rates.

Lower price is the domain of Windows hardware ... that hasn't changed and so far I don't know of anyone serious about Audio work is NOT using their iPad or iPhone to actually produce quality music ... maybe some primitive rap/hip-hop but nothing of any complexity and certainly not 7.1 or film quality audio.

Anyway, none of this really matters, Apple are doing whatever they want to do and certainly have shown NO INTEREST in what the Professional market wants. No professional would want to operate with the uncertainty that Apple brings ... so they move on to hardware/platforms they know aren't going to be dropped like a hot rock.

And if you refuse to believe their is "uncertainty" in the MacPro, then you need to look at how long this thread is and the many others like it dotted around the internet over the past 3+ years.

Apple is NOT a company you want to side with if you're a professional. For the hobbyist or the casual consumer it doesn't matter ... but this thread is about the "MacPro" that contains "Pro" meaning "Professional".