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Mac Pro vs. Hackintosh
- Thread starter adddictedtomac
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No, you bought a license to use a copy of OS X on an apple computer.
There's a difference. The EULA is very specific in mentioning this point.
By running it on a hackintosh, it could be argued that you are violating the DMCA (by circumventing an access control with the EFI bootloader hack). The fact that apple hasn't yet prosecuted anyone (other than Psystar) doesn't make it legal.
Now, if you want to argue in court that EULAs are not enforceable, thats another matter - but thus far, I'm not aware of anyone or any case where this has been successful.
In case you haven't bothered reading the license, its in section 1 and 2
os x license said:
source:
http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/MacOSX.htm
Furthermore, relying on previous OS X libraries/kexts to get your hackintosh to work (if your machine requires this) violates section 2 of the license as well, even if you did buy a copy of lion.
Now whether or not a hackintosh is maintainable, easy to set up is all something that can be debated. But until someone takes apple to court and gets their license invalidated (Psystar failed), running a hackintosh should be considered legally dubious at best.
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Like I said before - Those that own the gold, write the rules. You can point out all the things that everybody and their grandmother knows by now about the software "rules," but (like I said before) these are the same guys who broke the rules when they started out so they can write their own rules? That's Hypocritical.
Plus, no one can really afford Mac Pros anymore (as our dollar is failing and will be worthless soon - yeah, go ahead and fight me on that topic also) and their focus isn't on Mac Pros anyway as it is on the "new" iPad that now comes out every few months along with their "new" iPhones, because they cost less. It's churn and burn for these companies now and their main focus is making sure some poor worker at these Chinese sweat shops that make all these iPads and iPhones won't sell take one and give them to these other big-wig companies that are going to break the rules and copy them and call them something else and call it their own and create their own EULA laws. Again, it's all hypocritical, yet we buy into it...
PS - I also know that you're not allowed to take apart your iPhone, but get on Youtube and you'll find dozens of videos from people showing you how to do it... Me I don't care about taking apart my iPhone because it works just fine and I don't have the time for that anyway and don't want to risk breaking it... So, I'm at least following half the "rules."
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I'm not "fighting you". I'm merely pointing out that what you are doing is illegal. To some people (mostly business users) this matters. If buying a "legit" copy of OS X makes you sleep better at night, go for it. But according to the license, given you violated section 2, you've given up all rights under the license anyway.
Whether or not people can afford mac pros or not is irrelevant. If you want to run the software legally, a hackinosh is not an option.
And good luck using the "hypocrisy of apple's founders" defense in court. If it were to ever come to that. For a home user, it probably won't ever come to that.
For a company? Bend over... if the day ever comes, it is going to hurt.
That's why Psystar got in trouble. Me, I'm only one guy with one unit for my personal use like everyone else here who's built their own personal hackie...
There is this thing named "copyright". You paid for a license that allows you to use Mac OS X on any number of personal machines, as long as these machines are Apple branded. Any copy on a machine that isn't Apple branded is an illegal copy and copyright infringement, whether you paid for MacOS X or not.
When Apple sells Macs, one part of the deal is that I expect one or two upgrades to new OS versions very cheap, considerably cheaper than the value of the OS. If Apple sold a version that was generally usable (which they don't and which they refuse to do and which a court has decided is totally their right to d0), you'd expect it to cost the same or more than Windows 7 Professional full version.
If you're using a Pro for business purposes (i.e., what they're designed for) then your company is liable for copyright infringement at the company penalty rate (which last I checked was up to a couple of hundred grand per offence).
I cut out the rest of your post because you started to go off on in some weird direction that didn't make much sense.
Look, I can understand that you're passionate about your hackintosh and proud of it. That's ok. But trying to tell people that they're stupid and wasting money when they buy a mac pro is not ok. You seem to miss the basic facts here. Let's say you're a person that uses a computer to make money and you make $1000 or $2000 a day, then spending $4000 or $8000 or more on a computer that will help you make that money faster or more of it is not a big deal. Never mind the fact that it's your company's expense and therefore reduces your profit and tax (always great). Now consider the fact that many people have no inclination to tool around with a computer to make it work. It gets boring pretty quickly.
The last time I built a computer was in my early 20s and that was 12 years ago. I have no interest in doing this again nor do I have the time to worry about mucking about with it or worrying whether the latest update of OSX will break it or not. I also don't have the time to play IT support for myself because that costs me money. If my computer is not running, then I am not making money. I don't feel like spending 5 hours trying to fix it or set it up.
But you also mention this:
So you spent $4000 for a giggle to have a computer to muck about with? Understand that I am a director of a limited company. I cannot run software illegally on a hackintosh without exposing myself to a possible heap of legal troubles. I cannot afford that because I have to also consider my family that I need to support. Therefore 60% or 70% or 100% more is very little in the big scheme of things.
You could also use your whole argument and apply it to businesses that buy HP/Lenovo/Silicon Graphics workstations with Xeon CPUs. What a waste of money!! They could build their own for 50% of the cost by going to NewEgg.com!
Right. What about the cost building and maintaining those computers? When you're in university/college/whatever and have plenty of time to chase the magic dragon, then it's ok to be mucking about with computers and congratulating yourself on how much cheaper and faster your computer is. That doesn't always work like that out in the big world.
Posts like yours always remind me of people that join some sports car forums and tell the other members that theyre stupid for buying XXXXX for $XXXXXX because they can (or have) build a Honda Civic with a turbocharger and nitrous oxide that will be just as fast for 1/10th of the price. Well done. But that Honda Civic, or whatever, will never be XXXXX. Trust me, I did this in my younger, more stupid years, but at least I never joined forums to tell people that they are wasting their money on XXXXX sports car.
This is it, the risk for a business person is not worth it. Home user is entirely different.
Companies like MS and Apple, will look at penalising the businesses first, because the majority have insurance. A home user cannot afford 200k or whatever the price is.
Don't get me wrong, they will make an example of some, but business owners are greater at risk.
SR2Mac > TheSeb is a wise man, listen to him.
But at what point does an upgraded Mac pro cease to be a Mac pro & become a Hackintosh, Once you have upgraded to a PC video card ? the processors ? -what about the motherboard & the case ?
I said that because if that person is going to believe one thing, then might also believe something else; like our dollar is going to "recover" which is not happening.
I wasn't fighting you on it as well, if that's how it came across, I apologize. You are right though, guys like Psystar are a perfect example of what not to do. What gets me though is that you have these online video tech review sites (like a G4 type cable channel for Youtube) that produce videos that show you how to build hackies and hundreds of other videos on Youtube as well... It would be encouraging if Apple made their systems more affordable to squash all this; especially in the light of where things now are now in our current fiscal situation. If they were to cut their prices by 25% to 30% that would be fantastic. Then that would make it more affordable for more people... like me...
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It would be encouraging if Apple made their systems more affordable to squash all this; especially in the light of where things now are now in our current fiscal situation. If they were to cut their prices by 25% to 30% that would be fantastic. Then that would make it more affordable for more people... like me...
I wonder if Apple would even want to squash it though. Essentially, they make a ton of money on those of us that want to pay a premium for a premium product. Then naturally, some want to cheaply create a hack of this premium product. But those that do are still running Apple's operating system and thus likely buying other things from Apple that they can afford, which they may be less likely to do if they couldn't build a hackintosh.
Obviously, businesses are completely different thing. But for the home user willing to build a hackintosh, Apple might just be happy to get what ever money they can from them, even if its just the OS and some iTunes/App store purchases.
Well, in that case they've made quite a bit of money off of my family and I with iPhones, iTunes, phone apps and other stuff, so you definitely got a point there that I did think about, but now that you brought it up in that way; in how they still make profit from those that still can't spend a lot but do in other areas (in smaller amounts of money), they're still making profit... Good point...
Beyond that, it makes great sense if you're a solo worker, if if you've got enough sway to dictate IT policy, but if I tried to pull off "I'm going with a Hackintosh" the reply would be "Wait...what? No you aren't."
A noble idea, but along with many "I bought it, what I do with it is my business" arguments, not one necessarily supported by law. I very much doubt it will ever come up in court, but personally, I like the thing linked to my livelihood to be beyond dispute.
On the legal side, Apple seems to tolerate the home users making hackintoshes, but they come down quite hard on businesses trying that stunt. You could always choose how to read the EULA.... "This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. "
Semantically speaking, if you stuck a big Apple sticker on the hackintosh, then it is Apple labeled.
Don't misunderstand my earlier post. I have nothing against the hackintosh or the people that create them. I am merely pointing out that they aren't a viable solution for everyone. I would love a 3930 running OSX. It's perfect for the kind of stuff that I do.
Semantically speaking, if you stuck a big Apple sticker on the hackintosh, then it is Apple labeled.
Don't misunderstand my earlier post. I have nothing against the hackintosh or the people that create them. I am merely pointing out that they aren't a viable solution for everyone. I would love a 3930 running OSX. It's perfect for the kind of stuff that I do.
On the legal side, Apple seems to tolerate the home users making hackintoshes, but they come down quite hard on businesses trying that stunt. You could always choose how to read the EULA.... "This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. "
Semantically speaking, if you stuck a big Apple sticker on the hackintosh, then it is Apple labeled.
Don't misunderstand my earlier post. I have nothing against the hackintosh or the people that create them. I am merely pointing out that they aren't a viable solution for everyone. I would love a 3930 running OSX. It's perfect for the kind of stuff that I do.
I agree that in the end Apple would probably spank and business that used Hackintosh's. I wonder if Psystar is the appropriate example? they got spanked because they sold in essence mac clones, not produced something with mac clones.
Just curious, what other businesses out there (besides Psystar) that have gotten into legal issues?
Yeah that would be interesting. I think I've spent enough hours putting the one I have together and will be happy with what I've got for while...
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This is a really good point, before I bought Lion for a hack I hadn't had a reason to buy anything from Apple. Since then I've spent a few hundred in the mac app store, probably the same in iTunes and my iPad is on it's way
I've seen the back and forth on this thread and the other mac pro thread. I have to say for me, the hack has been somewhat like an extended trial. One that I absolutely needed, with as much as I use my PC, no matter the platform, it needs to be "tried and true" before I can go all willy nilly and switch platforms.
That being said, if one is an enthusiast and simply enjoys tinkering, a hack is a great way to tinker, and a great way to expand a technological horizon. (Knowledge of a bash prompt goes far beyond the OS X terminal)
I look at it that for every $1,000 that I spend, I get one year of decent use out of the tech that I purchase. (I'm not saying I'm average/normal/comparable, I know plenty of folks who can buy a $400 PC at Staples and be fine for 3 - 5 years). I think my highly personalized view of technology cost/benefit lines up neatly with the Mac Pro line. I pretty much am sold on just waiting for a product line refresh, then I will go all in.
For me, my hack, is an entirely different point of view. It satisfies my OS X / Apple ecosystem curiosity, while simultaneously provides a nicely performing and stable computing environment.
The legalities of this, while I maintain that I purchased a "legit" copy of Lion, I can not be ignorant of the terms of the license that accompanies the software. Personally I now prefer OS X as my mainstay and as mentioned earlier will be purchasing a Mac Pro (or equivalent product line) when a refresh becomes available. If I was uber rich, I'd buy one now and then just upgrade. (I've actually been keeping an eye on ebay for an 08/09/10 year MP to hold me over)
I think this is where the hackintosh vs mac pro argument gets it's legs. You can build a decent hackie that has more current hardware than the current line of MPs, that being said the terms "PC" and "workstation" shouldn't be so interchangeable comparing these platforms.
If I walked in to my friend's house and he had just built a hackie, my initial reaction would be "cool, awesome! how is it?" - If I started a new job tomorrow and went to my desk to find a hackie I would be instantly turned off and think "what a cheap company with no respect for another company's work product."
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This sums it up nicely.
Hacks are fun hobbies.
A serious business trying to get serious work done is unlikely to bother.
Psystar retailed hackintosh systems. That's a huge distinction from assuming Apple gives a damn what a business does for a workstation.
EULA is just a bugaboo in this argument. Hell, the whole indemnification portion alone in most EULAs should turn away any rational business person. There are more reasonable arguments against hackintosh in the enterprise that have been outlined. Specifically, they're unsupported. If you really want to pay a professional to troubleshoot kext files or have downtime for said professional while Mr. Pimples tries to figure out why the damned thing won't wake from sleep, more power to you. Most outfits will just buy from a vendor because it's good business sense.
But still, for those really hung up on this and wringing hands over what others are doing, just assume everyone is buying busted Mac Pros and gutting them. There you go. They bought a software license and have a hardware seat for the EULA. Plus it's Apple branded! Win!
EULA is just a bugaboo in this argument. Hell, the whole indemnification portion alone in most EULAs should turn away any rational business person. There are more reasonable arguments against hackintosh in the enterprise that have been outlined. Specifically, they're unsupported. If you really want to pay a professional to troubleshoot kext files or have downtime for said professional while Mr. Pimples tries to figure out why the damned thing won't wake from sleep, more power to you. Most outfits will just buy from a vendor because it's good business sense.
But still, for those really hung up on this and wringing hands over what others are doing, just assume everyone is buying busted Mac Pros and gutting them. There you go. They bought a software license and have a hardware seat for the EULA. Plus it's Apple branded! Win!
HAHA, so true. At least unless it was running some 8P E7 mega computer... not that more than 1 or 2 people on earth might do that.
But yes, OSX is pretty freaking awesome. I'm a relatively recent convert and it took about 2 years of dealing with Mac computers at work before I got over the learning curve and decided being stuck on windows XP for what felt like a decade sucked (plus I started to really rely on Unix/Linux). Now Windows 7 is pretty nice, but I still don't think it is as good as Snow Leopard. And of course Microsoft will screw the pooch with Windows 8. Though it does appear Apple is headed away from my tastes with Lion and Mountain Lion. Lion has been ok and all, but I just don't see the utility of all the fancy buttons. Not that its good or bad, its just different but not better. Which leaves me wondering, what was the point?
I've recently put Ubuntu on some old dying PCs, and I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with just the simplicity of it. As long as you don't need big expensive software that only runs on windows and/or macs, home builds for desktops with Ubuntu might be my future. Now if we could start building our own laptops...
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Yes and no. Obviously having a competitor sell your operating system on not-your-hardware is a huge, huge issue (at least to apple), but so is just generating a profit from using their product in an unlicensed fashion. Either way, Apple sees dollar signs sitting out there it wants to get its hands on.
It has been said :
Hacks are fun hobbies and very good and stable computers (95% uptime because you are always trying new things) for personal use but cannot be used in a business situation for legal or stability reasons (99.9% uptime).
That being said, it is very normal that Apple is trying to shut down Psystar because thay make profit off of Apple by using a similar design and their branding.
On the other hand, guys like Tonyx86 and Netkas do not make a profit off of the Apple brand (they encourage buying the software for your hack. Even though the EULA specifies it is only for Apple products, devs get paid for their work, so does the company) .... and I'm pretty sure Apple is happy with some of the free dev. they are doing for the company making new hardware work on their OS...
Hacks are fun hobbies and very good and stable computers (95% uptime because you are always trying new things) for personal use but cannot be used in a business situation for legal or stability reasons (99.9% uptime).
That being said, it is very normal that Apple is trying to shut down Psystar because thay make profit off of Apple by using a similar design and their branding.
On the other hand, guys like Tonyx86 and Netkas do not make a profit off of the Apple brand (they encourage buying the software for your hack. Even though the EULA specifies it is only for Apple products, devs get paid for their work, so does the company) .... and I'm pretty sure Apple is happy with some of the free dev. they are doing for the company making new hardware work on their OS...
Just look at the product mix and not only isn't it a huge issue, it isn't even on the radar. I don't think Apple cares, nor should they. And like illustrated here and elsewhere, you can't assume every hackintosh is a lost Mac Pro sale. Plus there are halo profits to be found. That just further whittles down what already essentially amounts to a rounding error for Apple.
Psystar too wasn't even a blip on the radar, but they represented a greater threat to Apple's whole business plan and Steve's sensibilities. Apple wanted to nuke them from orbit. So, yeah, completely different situations.