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mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
I like the overall finish and build quality. I'm impressed by it when I see it, and I'm impressed with it on the rare occasions when I open it.

It's certainly a beautifully made machine, and presumably a joy to work on.


IF Apple now decides to ditch MPX and run it as AS+Expansion, I think they should redesign the inside to allow for plug-in storage. That's what I say above: I mean the user shouldn't need extra cards for nvme or caddies for HDDs. It should be part of the new design. The Mac Pro will still need a couple of PCI slots, but it might still be able to make it a bit smaller than it is now.

Apple has already ditched MPX - the 2023 MP just uses regular PCIe slots, and can't take GPUs at all. It would make sense to add e.g. 4x M2 slots to the logic board - there's acres of space. HDDs are likely to be useful for some and not for others. A more flexible solution may be to make provision for a HDD bracket in the PCIe area - that way you can choose between maximum PCIe slots, or less PCIe and e.g. 4x HDDs.


And I don't think it would be that niche to offer an M3 Ultra that a user can beef up substantially with off-the-shelf nvmes as time goes by. I wouldn't be surprised that quite a few users wouldn't blink to pay a $1500-2000 premium over the Mac Studio for this and a couple of open PCI slots.

Perhaps Apple could just create an add-on expansion box for the Studio that connects via a special Thunderbolt link. This is essentially what happens already on an architectural level, with a few spare Thunderbolt lanes on the Ultra being fanned out with PLX switches to support loads of PCIe slots. Without needing to support GPUs, it may not have to be particularly large, or have loads of cooling / PSU capacity.
 

HDFan

Contributor
Jun 30, 2007
7,290
3,340
I’m afraid that the reason there aren’t many videos talking about the latest Mac Pros is because very few were sold.

There are a lot of them. Takes a minute or two to find them since they are old now. Here's one:

 

danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
617
It may not come stock with NVMe storage slots, but it's cheap to add quite a few. If you want the densest solutions (8 or more NVMe drives per card), the cards get somewhat pricey, but 4 per card solutions are cheap and fit in any slot.I'd love to see Apple include four NVMe slots stock, but fixing that is $279 and takes upon a less-valuable 8x, single-height slot.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
It may not come stock with NVMe storage slots, but it's cheap to add quite a few. If you want the densest solutions (8 or more NVMe drives per card), the cards get somewhat pricey, but 4 per card solutions are cheap and fit in any slot.I'd love to see Apple include four NVMe slots stock, but fixing that is $279 and takes upon a less-valuable 8x, single-height slot.

M2 slots are the sort of thing that's easy to tuck away on a large motherboard, since they're so small; my mid-range ATX motherboard has 4. With the 2023 MP, there's an embarrassment of slots and no need / ability to accommodate typical 3-slot GPUs; you basically have to go looking for things to fill the slots up with.
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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It's certainly a beautifully made machine, and presumably a joy to work on.

Not really a joy to work on. The requirement to unplug all cables, do a change, then CLOSE THE CASE and plug all cables back in again, is a nightmare when you are testing things. You should be able to run it with the case open as you pop things in and out. REALLY bad design.

There is a stupid work around to being able to run it without the case on, where you push some of the buttons somehow, but it's dumb.

Frankly, many parts of the case seem down right spiteful. The 'revolutionary' intake design seems to be a giant FU where apple says "you want youre cheese grater punks, here you go" and it still lets in lots of dust, but now the dust behind it is basically impossible to ever really clean. You can only vacuum so much from it, and the rest is inaccessible because of the spiteful design.

I do like how it looks. Aesthetics are nice. But many things about working with it, are just poorly done IMO.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,342
2,975
Australia
IF Apple now decides to ditch MPX and run it as AS+Expansion, I think they should redesign the inside to allow for plug-in storage.

Why would a Mac Pro need something an iPad or Macbook does not?

Universal Storage is the future, everything soldered and security coded.
 

AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
704
495
Zürich
Not really a joy to work on. The requirement to unplug all cables, do a change, then CLOSE THE CASE and plug all cables back in again, is a nightmare when you are testing things. You should be able to run it with the case open as you pop things in and out. REALLY bad design.
I agree that having to close the case before being able to start it is an annoyance when you "just want to test something quickly".

But it's not an oversight on Apple's part where they realized too late: ****, we should have left the case design open on the back bottom to be able to slide it on and off with all the cables still there.

It's because the cooling of the computer relies on the case to work. Apple can't know if you're just going to "quickly test something", or if the user just thinks it "looks cool open" and runs it like this for extended periods of time. The fact that the case has to be on is protection for the user, given the choice of cooling that allows me to run two double graphics cards with "passive" cooling practically silent.

---------------------

A more general comment not directed at anyone special: I don't do the angry game. There are a couple of threads on the forum that just keep churning around in anger, frustration, and disappointment.... It's often the same handful of users that lash out.

I tried to have a discussion the last time around, but it didn't work. More importantly: it wasn't fun or rewarding in any way.

Anyway, I'll happily exchange opinions with anyone who can have a grown-up discussion—regardless of their view.
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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I wonder if Apple does have a big AI announcement at WWDC, and there is a need for big local AI processing/development, if that doesnt motivate apple to either provide it's own neural engine cards or support some of the stuff from 3rd parties. And if that in turn doesnt get them to provide support for 3rd party graphics cards.

Probably not terribly likely, but maybe a small chance.
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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Interesting article:


1709759542952.png

If we take Mac Pro sales as being 3%, as the iPhone proved, the more important number is not marketshare, but profit share. id argue that the profit per Mac Pro in gross values is 5-10x of a MacBook Air. (Air average price of 1200 makes $300 profit) whereas average price of a Mac Pro is say $10k, with average profit of $3k-6k…but let’s call it 10x).

That is huge.

Yet Apple treats it and its customers with disdain.
 

Harry Haller

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2023
810
1,786
I knew MacBooks would be a majority percentage of sales, but not 90%. Wow. Genuinely shocked the Mac Pro is 3x the Studio. Seems counter intuitive. iPad on a stick seems high. But as the owner of a 27” iMac I’m probably biased.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
Not shocked that most Mac sales are laptops, though 90% is higher than I would have expected. Certainly, Macs make a lot more sense as laptops than desktops. Modern laptops in general are capable enough for most uses, whilst being easier to deploy / take somewhere to service.

Very surprised the Mac Pro outsells the Studio 3:1 though. Wonder whether these figures include the 2023 model?
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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The profit made from Airs and that made from the Mac Pro are roughly the same. Yet, apple treats the Mac Pro like garbage.
 

Harry Haller

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2023
810
1,786
Not shocked that most Mac sales are laptops, though 90% is higher than I would have expected. Certainly, Macs make a lot more sense as laptops than desktops. Modern laptops in general are capable enough for most uses, whilst being easier to deploy / take somewhere to service.

Very surprised the Mac Pro outsells the Studio 3:1 though. Wonder whether these figures include the 2023 model?

The report is dated ‘23 but I think it might cover ‘22 sales. There might have been a surge of Intel Mac Pro sales before the Apple Silicon Mac Pro dropped.
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
that data would have captured my Intel MacPro that I purchased in end of 2022 brand new before the silicon version was released.

Not that it makes much difference- Apple works in strange ways at times.

I’m glad I got the best of the Mac Pro generations.
 

impulse462

macrumors 68020
Jun 3, 2009
2,097
2,878
Interesting article:


View attachment 2356260
If we take Mac Pro sales as being 3%, as the iPhone proved, the more important number is not marketshare, but profit share. id argue that the profit per Mac Pro in gross values is 5-10x of a MacBook Air. (Air average price of 1200 makes $300 profit) whereas average price of a Mac Pro is say $10k, with average profit of $3k-6k…but let’s call it 10x).

That is huge.

Yet Apple treats it and its customers with disdain.
This is an interesting chart. Idk if you've heard of MLX, a new framework for running ML operations optimized for macs. it seems like a pretty big project so i'm hoping this turns into more widespread adoption of ANE. more competitio for nvidia is always good imo
 
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danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
617
I suspect that this is in dollars, rather than in units sold - primarily because of the MBA/MBP ratio. Just based on what I see around, there are more MBA units than MBP, and by a considerable margin. On the other hand, a 16" MBP can easily sell for over $5000 and potentially as much as $7000 - one of those accounts for quite a few Airs.

Either way, I'm surprised at how poorly the Mac mini and Mac Studio do. The iMac selling OK for a desktop doesn't surprise me, especially when you consider that they show up in bulk sales (they're front desk machines in quite a few places). If it's dollars, and includes some of the end of the Intel Mac Pro, a relatively small number of corporate orders for extremely expensive configurations could account for quite a bit of the Mac Pro revenue. At the extreme, a $20 million order for Mac Pros could even be possible (1000 machines to a big animation firm at $20,000 apiece, which the Intel could hit without much trouble). A million dollar order is not hard to imagine at all - it could be well under 100 machines.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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I suspect that this is in dollars, rather than in units sold - primarily because of the MBA/MBP ratio. Just based on what I see around, there are more MBA units than MBP, and by a considerable margin. On the other hand, a 16" MBP can easily sell for over $5000 and potentially as much as $7000 - one of those accounts for quite a few Airs.

Either way, I'm surprised at how poorly the Mac mini and Mac Studio do. The iMac selling OK for a desktop doesn't surprise me, especially when you consider that they show up in bulk sales (they're front desk machines in quite a few places). If it's dollars, and includes some of the end of the Intel Mac Pro, a relatively small number of corporate orders for extremely expensive configurations could account for quite a bit of the Mac Pro revenue. At the extreme, a $20 million order for Mac Pros could even be possible (1000 machines to a big animation firm at $20,000 apiece, which the Intel could hit without much trouble). A million dollar order is not hard to imagine at all - it could be well under 100 machines.

I tend to disagree. Considering the average MBP might be 2500-3000 and the average air price is 1200, if they sold even amounts you would see MBP 2x the size, say 25% to 50%. Where it's more 40 to 50.

Much like iPhones, I think the high end pro units sell more in absolute numbers as well as in $.

It's a fair question though, and I could easily be wrong.
 

danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
617
Let's say the MBP does average twice the price of the Air (and I could certainly buy that, especially if the $6000 ones are rare and the $1400 models compensate for them). I would have initially thought the price difference was even larger than that, but I had forgotten about the base models that use the same chip as the Air. They're fairly popular, and they drive the average selling price of the Pro down.

If that's the case, the Air sells more units, by about 3:2 or a little more (maybe 5:3), depending on the exact ratio of their selling prices. I live in a relatively well-off university town (Cambridge, MA), and that's what I see on the campuses and in the coffee shops - Airs over Pros by something less than 2:1. Yes, that's affected by a lot of students (who prefer Airs), but it's also both a relatively wealthy area and an engineering and biotech-heavy one, both of which might boost the Pro. The ratio "in the wild" is certainly closer to 3:2 or 5:3 in favor of the Air than it is to 5:4 in favor of the Pro, at least where I am (and when I happen to notice in other places while traveling).

The other thing dollar value does is that it makes the Mac Pro number a lot more reasonable. It would be a VERY unusual market if Mac Pro UNITS were outselling the much cheaper Mini, especially when the Mini gets used as a media machine (I know a couple of people who use them as glorified Apple TVs), as a home server, and in data centers. Yes, the Mac Pro gets some big contracts in Hollywood, and to a lesser extent in academic computer labs - but I have a very hard time seeing it outselling the Mini 3:1.

Account for a 10:1 or more difference in price, though, and it makes a lot more sense! It sells 1/3 what the Mini does, but at 10x the price...

No question that the Mac Studio is a flop, no matter how you slice the numbers. It sells a tiny number (no more than a couple of hundred thousand units annually), even if it's by units, and somewhat less than that (the average selling price isn't THAT high, because of base M(n) Max models) if it's in dollars.

Apple sells about 20 million Macs a year (this figure varies quite a bit year by year, but it's in the ballpark), meaning that 1% of unit sales is about 200,000 Macs.

If the chart is in units, you end up with something like (very roughly):

10.2 Million MacBook Pros
8 Million MacBook Airs
800,000 iMacs
600,000 Mac Pros
200,000 Mac minis
200,000 Mac Studios.

Those 600,000 Mac Pros don't pass the sniff test to me (and the Air to Pro ratio feels wrong, but not wildly out of whack - the Air to Pro ratio could simply be that I live in an Air-filled college town).

If it's in dollars, we're closer to (even rougher, because actual average selling prices are probably unknown outside of Apple Park):
11 Million MacBook Airs
7 Million MacBook Pros
1.1 Million iMacs
600,000 Mac minis (at very low average prices)
150,000 Mac Pros (at very high average prices)
150,000 Mac Studios

That feels a lot better to me. If they're really selling over half a million Mac Pros annually at ~$10,000 apiece, that's a BIG business (something like $5 billion/yr), and even Apple can't ignore a $5 billion business.

The other interesting figure I found while looking this up is that Statista says that there are about 12 million mobile workstations sold annually (using a generous definition of "workstation", because IDC says there are only 8 million workstations sold annually, mobile and desktop combined - maybe 4-5 million are mobile????). Either way, the MacBook Pro sells something on the order of all other mobile workstations COMBINED. I suspect that every MacBook Pro qualifies under Statista's loose definition (with the possible exception of some base-chip models). By the tighter IDC definition, the base chips almost certainly don't qualify.
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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Let's say the MBP does average twice the price of the Air (and I could certainly buy that, especially if the $6000 ones are rare and the $1400 models compensate for them). I would have initially thought the price difference was even larger than that, but I had forgotten about the base models that use the same chip as the Air. They're fairly popular, and they drive the average selling price of the Pro down.

If that's the case, the Air sells more units, by about 3:2 or a little more (maybe 5:3), depending on the exact ratio of their selling prices. I live in a relatively well-off university town (Cambridge, MA), and that's what I see on the campuses and in the coffee shops - Airs over Pros by something less than 2:1. Yes, that's affected by a lot of students (who prefer Airs), but it's also both a relatively wealthy area and an engineering and biotech-heavy one, both of which might boost the Pro. The ratio "in the wild" is certainly closer to 3:2 or 5:3 in favor of the Air than it is to 5:4 in favor of the Pro, at least where I am (and when I happen to notice in other places while traveling).

The other thing dollar value does is that it makes the Mac Pro number a lot more reasonable. It would be a VERY unusual market if Mac Pro UNITS were outselling the much cheaper Mini, especially when the Mini gets used as a media machine (I know a couple of people who use them as glorified Apple TVs), as a home server, and in data centers. Yes, the Mac Pro gets some big contracts in Hollywood, and to a lesser extent in academic computer labs - but I have a very hard time seeing it outselling the Mini 3:1.

Account for a 10:1 or more difference in price, though, and it makes a lot more sense! It sells 1/3 what the Mini does, but at 10x the price...

No question that the Mac Studio is a flop, no matter how you slice the numbers. It sells a tiny number (no more than a couple of hundred thousand units annually), even if it's by units, and somewhat less than that (the average selling price isn't THAT high, because of base M(n) Max models) if it's in dollars.

Apple sells about 20 million Macs a year (this figure varies quite a bit year by year, but it's in the ballpark), meaning that 1% of unit sales is about 200,000 Macs.

If the chart is in units, you end up with something like (very roughly):

10.2 Million MacBook Pros
8 Million MacBook Airs
800,000 iMacs
600,000 Mac Pros
200,000 Mac minis
200,000 Mac Studios.

Those 600,000 Mac Pros don't pass the sniff test to me (and the Air to Pro ratio feels wrong, but not wildly out of whack - the Air to Pro ratio could simply be that I live in an Air-filled college town).

If it's in dollars, we're closer to (even rougher, because actual average selling prices are probably unknown outside of Apple Park):
11 Million MacBook Airs
7 Million MacBook Pros
1.1 Million iMacs
600,000 Mac minis (at very low average prices)
150,000 Mac Pros (at very high average prices)
150,000 Mac Studios

That feels a lot better to me. If they're really selling over half a million Mac Pros annually at ~$10,000 apiece, that's a BIG business (something like $5 billion/yr), and even Apple can't ignore a $5 billion business.

The other interesting figure I found while looking this up is that Statista says that there are about 12 million mobile workstations sold annually (using a generous definition of "workstation", because IDC says there are only 8 million workstations sold annually, mobile and desktop combined - maybe 4-5 million are mobile????). Either way, the MacBook Pro sells something on the order of all other mobile workstations COMBINED. I suspect that every MacBook Pro qualifies under Statista's loose definition (with the possible exception of some base-chip models). By the tighter IDC definition, the base chips almost certainly don't qualify.

I think colleges are disproportionally air, and work and professional, it's quite the opposite. I think it's quite the same in professional areas, you are more likely to see a Mac Pro than a mini.

Your analysis reasonable, and compelling, but I do think those are denominated in units and not $. But you may well have the better argument.
 

danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
617
As may you - I willingly admit that Cambridge, MA is probably among the MacBook Air's strongest markets... The Mini/Pro ratio seems harder, because it is very rare that an expensive product outsells a MUCH cheaper one of like kind from the same maker. I work in the photo industry (among other things), and every analyst would go crazy if the latest EOS-1 ever outsold the Rebel (Canon cameras with a roughly 10:1 price disparity). Ask an automotive analyst if the Porsche 911 has ever outsold the VW Bug/Golf/Jetta (whichever one is the big seller that year).
 
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impulse462

macrumors 68020
Jun 3, 2009
2,097
2,878
I wonder if Apple does have a big AI announcement at WWDC, and there is a need for big local AI processing/development, if that doesnt motivate apple to either provide it's own neural engine cards or support some of the stuff from 3rd parties. And if that in turn doesnt get them to provide support for 3rd party graphics cards.

Probably not terribly likely, but maybe a small chance.
This is pretty interesting. ANE right now is built into the SoC, so a separate card COULD be cool just for added ML training workloads. it would make sense since they have introduced their own ML framework, MLX.

the only concern however is that since the ANE is integrated in the SoC they definitely have the microarchitecture designed to limit dram latency. A separate card would severely curtail this, since they would make a separate SoC with onboard memory. either way they are still limited by HBM memory bandwidth. but then again so are nvidia gpus so its interesting to see if they ever do something like this - id be totally down TBH and if i could have added ANE pcie cards, newer versions of the mac pro all of a sudden seem like likely buys for me at least.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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This is pretty interesting. ANE right now is built into the SoC, so a separate card COULD be cool just for added ML training workloads. it would make sense since they have introduced their own ML framework, MLX.

the only concern however is that since the ANE is integrated in the SoC they definitely have the microarchitecture designed to limit dram latency. A separate card would severely curtail this, since they would make a separate SoC with onboard memory. either way they are still limited by HBM memory bandwidth. but then again so are nvidia gpus so its interesting to see if they ever do something like this - id be totally down TBH and if i could have added ANE pcie cards, newer versions of the mac pro all of a sudden seem like likely buys for me at least.

And that's why it totally needs PCIe5 and thunderbolt 5. :D
 
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