MP All Models Mac Pro X,Y…WHAT IF…

[prefuse07]

I'm bringing this post into this thread, since the 8,1 is out now (so i'm gonna abandon that thread):

Given the rumors of those compute modules -- and the fact that NONE OF THAT was previewed/talked about at WWDC with the unveiling of the 8,1, I have a feeling that apple could try to introduce those as additional GPU power for users that really need it.

i.e. look at the Vision headset -- they are using the Reality 1 chip to focus on one thing, and the M2 to focus on graphics/rendering/etc...

 

[orionquest]

And the depressing news is now official:

Apple Silicon Mac Pro does not support PCI-E video cards

Apple announced the Apple Silicon Mac Pro, and while it packs a punch with M2 Ultra, pro users won't be happy with a lack of Radeon PCI-E video card support.

appleinsider.com

I was just going to reply, if it was confirmed...

Well Apple just F'd themselves with this. Who the heck is this for? Audio pro's, and video editors who will need to update the entire machine for faster video rendering in a few years???

Welcome back to the 80's or 90's Apple where everything was proprietary.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

This is dumb, but doesnt it seem like the 8,1 kind of has 8 slots. There seem to be 2 apple IO cards up top with 6 free.

Why are they counted those 2 cards as just one slot?

 

[StellarVixen]

I don’t understand how can Apple misunderstand their user base so much when it comes to this product?

Do they actually hire some analytics company to tell them what to do, instead of trying to listen to actual user feedback?

 

[Fravin]

Welcome back to the 80's or 90's Apple where everything was proprietary.

With the launch of Vision Pro Apple seems to be setting its hopes in another market. The selling numbers of Vision Pro first year can be much more evident than MacPro’s results since it’s debut.

Mac Studio is probably a major success in numbers than MPro as well.

I don’t think it’s wrong at all. Apple is just been a great business company.

 

[fuchsdh]

I don’t understand how can Apple misunderstand their user base so much when it comes to this product?

Do they actually hire some analytics company to tell them what to do, instead of trying to listen to actual user feedback?

I don't think it's misunderstanding, it's priorities. Apple's got very different costumers it's trying to serve, and they've clearly decided it's too much effort to create a bespoke solution with Apple Silicon to cater to the same niche as the old Mac Pro; every other product would work differently, and Apple Silicon's speed innately comes from its highly integrated nature, which a highly expandable and upgradable Mac Pro would be at cross-purposes. You would be better off with an AMD or Intel system with Intel or AMD or Nvidia GPUs. But that's not a machine they're interested in making.

Apple instead decided that it could just stick slots and more storage and ports onto a Mac Studio and service those customers who only need that, because they think there's still enough of a market for the product there. I think they're probably right (at a $1K premium over the old offering, though?). But how much of that hunch being right how is due to market trends, and how much is due to self-inflicted wounds by not keeping the product updated, we'll never know without a peek into the boring multiverse where Apple just kept shipping a tower workstation from 2013 to now. They mentioned who they thought could use it in the keynote—it's obviously not high-end graphics work, but the writing has been on the wall there for a while. I get why people are upset, because the 2016–2019 era suggested that maybe Apple was turning a corner with eGPU support and the Mac Pro, but either they had a change of heart pursuing that market segment, or again it was just a path leading away from the rest of their product strategy.

I guess we'll see if we get another version of this model and Apple was right that it's a large enough niche to maintain, or it'll join the past decade of one-off Apple products in the dustbin of history.

 

[arw]

This is dumb, but doesnt it seem like the 8,1 kind of has 8 slots. There seem to be 2 apple IO cards up top with 6 free.
Why are they counted those 2 cards as just one slot?

Yeah, got me confused as well. Thanks for pointing it out.
I then thought the 1st slot could simply be without contacts but it doesn’t look the two cards are connected via an external bridge.
Perhaps the top Thunderbolt card is directly connected to the SoC and only uses the physical properties of a PCIe connector instead of a custom interface.

EDIT: Actually, it looks indeed like a different connector. Enhanced pic 2.
Pic 3 shows the (old) Mac Pro 7,1.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Yeah, got me confused as well. Thanks for pointing it out.
I then thought the 1st slot could simply be without contacts but it doesn’t look the two cards are connected via an external bridge.
Perhaps the top Thunderbolt card is directly connected to the SoC and only uses the physical properties of a PCIe connector instead of a custom interface.

EDIT: Actually, it looks indeed like a different connector. Enhanced pic 2.
Pic 3 shows the (old) Mac Pro 7,1.

Agree it’s some kind of different slot but it is an 8th slot.

 

[deconstruct60]

View attachment 2213268

This is dumb, but doesnt it seem like the 8,1 kind of has 8 slots. There seem to be 2 apple IO cards up top with 6 free.

Why are they counted those 2 cards as just one slot?

On the MP 2019 Apple used discrete Intel Thunderbolt controllers to provision the four TB sockets. On slot 8 there was a TB controller and a USB Controller (or at least USB PHYS from a USB feed from the Intel PCH).

OWC Teardown of the 2019 Mac Pro

Our OWC friends Tom and Brady have torn apart a 2019 Mac Pro. Not only do we have it on video, but check out our high-res photo gallery of all the parts as well!

eshop.macsales.com

old Slot 8 was a 'mini MPX' augment to the standard slot. Slot 8 had some proprietary 'augment' pins from main board that carried GPIO and two DP out to the 'old' Apple I/O card to provision the inputs to the TB controller there. I think the USB is being run out through that augment connector also from the PCH ( and only USB PHYS and Power Support chips out there on the card). [ there is audio on that card too. ]



The card on slot 8 now has NO CONTROLLERs. Thunderbolt is provisioned entirely out of the SoC. It is already a TB signal when it gets to the card. There is some USB PHYS and power support chips to support USB -C sockets requirements and likely a redriver to remove any signal loss from crossing the large main board, but there is zero need to run PCI-e lanes out there at all. It is gone. It pragmatically entirely becomes an entirely proprietary slot. The only thing on that card is TB and TB doesn't need PCI-e at that point in the slightest. (there is PCI-e controller built into the TB controller on the main die. )

Very similar reason why the MPX sockets are gone. Thunderbolt comes out of the SoC and not done "at the edge' of the system.

New slot 7 has USB and HDMI ports on it. Likely Apple is reusing that 'augment' pins to run DP video out there where it is converted into HDMI at the edge. They may be running PCI-e to a discrete USB controller . ( Step 10 of iMac 24" teardown

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+M1+24-Inch+Teardown/142850

The 'extra' USB-C sockets are run by a ASMedia PCI-USB controller. Same theme of putting ports on a seperate I/O card that can replace if someone manages to completely blow out the circuits behind the port. ). There would be PCI-e out to that controller.

So new Slot 7 is augmented like 'old' slot 8 was. So same option there to yank the card and loose 'standard' Apple provided I/O ( only HDMI and USB and Audio this time ). and put your own in.



I suspect there will be folks who want optical audio out instead of a headphone jack and are happy enough with type-C DP to a general market monitor and don't need USB sockets. Or need yet another Ethernet Jack instead

McFiver PCIe Card - Tech Specs - SONNETTECH

View videos and tech specs for McFiver PCIe card, and determine hardware and OS compatibility.

www.sonnettech.com

and just do digital out through the TB ports. [ The 'fiver' packing multiple things onto a single card because 'down one' slot makes sense. ]

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

Yeah, this new Mac Pro was very disappointing it has 1/8 the possible RAM capacity. They could and should have done unified + normal RAM.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

The duo sill absolutely DESTROYS the M2 ultra in most graphics tests.

We don't know that yet, we don't have M2 ultra benchmarks yet.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

Well you can insert random PC parts into a silicon Mac Pro. Just not random GPUs (apparently). So high speed SSD cards, audio equipment, video capture equipment etc.

I *do* think if we make enough of a stink about needing 3rd party GPU support they could bring it back.

Also, we should make a stink about RX 7000 support

 

[prefuse07]

Also, we should make a stink about RX 7000 support

Agreed, at least get them to release drivers for the 7000 series. AMD has publicly said that they are willing to continue to work with Apple despite Apple Silicon. All we need are drivers!

The argument could be "come on Tim, I spent $$$$ on my 7,1 for you to just cut me off at the knees? Then why continue to support it on macOS Sonoma if I can't continue to upgrade the GPU, etc..." and maybe also make some mention of the W7800 and W7900 that were recently released.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

Glad to see my old 5,1 has got some very good use yet! 😂

 

[Bustycat]

There will be no MacPro9,1 along with no MacPro8,1. We will see something like Mac14,x next week and Mac15,x for the future generation.

 

[avkills]

In some point of the keynote, I thought it would be possible to Intel-MacPro users to switch their old motherboards with Apple Silicon ones. It would make some sense. But no.

Agreed, at least get them to release drivers for the 7000 series. AMD has publicly said that they are willing to continue to work with Apple despite Apple Silicon. All we need are drivers!

The argument could be "come on Tim, I spent $$$$ on my 7,1 for you to just cut me off at the knees? Then why continue to support it on macOS Sonoma if I can't continue to upgrade the GPU, etc..." and maybe also make some mention of the W7800 and W7900 that were recently released.

Both of these statements 100%. Fravin I think we should start a stink about that because isn't Apple a "green" company?

Soooo.... who is going to try and build another Hackintosh again?

 

[avkills]

We don't know that yet, we don't have M2 ultra benchmarks yet.

No we don't; but on paper the W6800XDuo has better compute. But then again there are only a handful of apps that actually benefit from dual or quad GPUs.

If I had a re-do I think I would have bought the W6900X instead.

 

[deconstruct60]

Agreed, at least get them to release drivers for the 7000 series. AMD has publicly said that they are willing to continue to work with Apple despite Apple Silicon. All we need are drivers!

Errr how?

Apple stopped selling the MP 2019 model. There are no new slots coming for these W7000X modules to target in the Apple BTO market. That is the 'floor' of projected sales for a product like this. You think AMD is going to jump up and do triple back-flips to sell into a pool of systems that is shrinking.

Apple isn't interested or they'd be still selling MP 2019's side by side with the new model ( like they did with the Mini for over two years).

If there are not Apple official W7000X models how is AMD/Apple going to make back the money spent on writing the drivers. The generic Windows PC versions that contribute $0.00 to mac drivers work aren't going to pay. If they do a special "Mac Version" the rogue folks who hack firmware and slap it on generic cards are going to crater those sales ... into an already shrinking market.

Money talks ... and there is relatively no money here.

MacOS 14 is dumping most Mac prior to 2018. MacOS 15 is likely going to dump most make prior to 2019. And at that point... the 'ice' is going to get super duper thin. This M2 Mac pro is indicative that Apple intened to drop the MP 2019 at the end of 2022. The countdown clock is running. Several years ago, the launch window of the 7000 series likely match up very closely to where the MP 2019 was ending. If no one planned for this years ago... probably not happening.

 

[yurc]

The 7,1 still fairly more versatile than 8,1 AS, model...at least from Blender artist perspective, at least I can use as Wintel box when EoS and throwing RTX cards there.

But being Apple under Cook...you know folks...Apple can start crippling down certain features on the purpose on 7,1 as time fly.

Same things like Apple did on 5,1 back then (hand off, night shift, hardware encode, etc) , the machine is certainly capable but imposing the faux limitation is quite meh...

 

[goMac]

W7000X or 7000 series support is most likely not happening.

Apple’s goal now is going to be ending support for the 7,1 completely. Intel Macs maybe have one more macOS version. Then it’s done.

This is the spin down. There’s no lifespan extending upgrades coming. Apple’s goal is to move everyone onto Apple Silicon so they can stop supporting Intel Macs.

We’ll see if anything shows up in Sonoma but I’m not holding my breath.

 

[h9826790]

View attachment 2213268

This is dumb, but doesnt it seem like the 8,1 kind of has 8 slots. There seem to be 2 apple IO cards up top with 6 free.

Why are they counted those 2 cards as just one slot?

I suspect at least one of the card there is essential. Therefore, you can never free up two slots by removing both cards.

The upper card has 6 TB ports on it. I believe that's the essential card which cannot be removed. May be Apple will provide another card for that particular slot to upgrade. But no matter what, I believe the 8,1 cannot boot without that particular card in the slot.

On the other hand, the lower one is the USB A, HDMI, 3.5mm ports card. If the user don't need it, they can remove it, and install another PCIe card into that slot.

 

[h9826790]

View attachment 2213152
A world where 3rd party graphics cards are supported and...

By considering they actually removed the MPX slots. And Apple only provide MPX graphic card in the 7,1.

To me, it seems that they have no plan to let the 8,1 install any dGPU. Not even Apple graphic card.

Of course, they may release their own M2, M3, M4... PCIe graphic card for the 8,1. But I am not too optimistic about that at this moment.

 

[Stevenyo]

Honestly, does Apple deserve us spending even a single precious minute of our lives thinking about it?

Clearly the Mac is an iPad with a different input focus, that’s Apple’s future course - the thing you buy is the best it will ever be, and as with iDevices, every OS upgrade will just make the machine slower and slower, as Apple manages the decline, like an aged person receiving “managed” health care for a gentle descent into the grave.

Where I was looking to finance a ~17k Mac Pro if what came out was like the 7,1... now, nope. Maybe a cheap mini, but I think Synology-centric and disentangling from Apple interconnection is the way forward.

Sad way for ~29 years of daily use to come to a close... but there it is.

What would make a Mac Pro "Like the 7,1" if it had to be on Apple Silicon. Not saying I think the 8,1 is great or anything, but living in reality, what more could you possibly expect from it? Compute PCIe cards/GPUs would be great. Extra DDR5 to have a huge, super fast swap file would be nice. Lower prices of course. But fundamentally, any apple silicon mac pro was going to be a giant SoC plus some PCIe and sata expansion, right? It's kinda a bummer that there isn't some totally different hardware for the couple thousand MacPro buyers each year, but did you really expect anything else than what we got?

 

[Stevenyo]

Yes. These prices are completely nonsensical.

What on earth was the point of the Apple Silicon transition if Apple is going to release a far worse machine for far more money?

How is it worse? Seriously asking. If you still in 2023 use software that relies on a dedicated GPU, please stop hurting yourself by sticking with the Mac. That ship sailed. long ago. Same if you use lots of RAM, apple's pricing and soldering have made heavy users find other platforms years ago. So for Mac users -- people who maybe edit wedding or youtube videos, or write iPhone apps, or maybe do some audio or photo work -- how is this Mac Pro worse than the 7,1? Price is stupid, I'll give you that, definitely should be 500-1000 over the studio, not 3000+, but the 7,1 was even more stupidly priced. Beyond that. it's an Apple Silicon mac I can put extra hardware inside. That's all I really want from a mac pro. Something powerful enough for the limited use cases Macs are viable for and that doesn't look like a rats nest of wires and multiple boxes just to have basic functions like multiple storage devices.

 

[mattspace]

What would make a Mac Pro "Like the 7,1" if it had to be on Apple Silicon. Not saying I think the 8,1 is great or anything, but living in reality, what more could you possibly expect from it? Compute PCIe cards/GPUs would be great. Extra DDR5 to have a huge, super fast swap file would be nice. Lower prices of course. But fundamentally, any apple silicon mac pro was going to be a giant SoC plus some PCIe and sata expansion, right? It's kinda a bummer that there isn't some totally different hardware for the couple thousand MacPro buyers each year, but did you really expect anything else than what we got?

Exactly the same paradigm as the 7,1 - slotted RAM, of-the-shelf GPUs etc, but with a different processor. That's what would make it better than it is.

None of the compromises this machine imposes are bought with an advantage over a Mac Studio, unless you acknowledge that Thunderbolt isn't actually up to its task of "stable PCI on a wire", and that you actually have to have slots.