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jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
How is it worse? Seriously asking. If you still in 2023 use software that relies on a dedicated GPU, please stop hurting yourself by sticking with the Mac.
It's worse, I'm writing software that relies on a *dedicated GPU (*or at very least as much GPU power as I can get).

I'm very close to ditching Apple, but that will likely involve switching programming languages, throwing 10 years of experience with various Apple APIs down the toilet and switching jobs.

The issue here is that in many of their endeavours Apple understands that people are different and they have different needs, so they will give themselves props for measuring "thousands of heads" for their headsets and making hundreds of different watch bands, but when it comes to their Pro computers the 8,1 is a completely one-size-fits-all computer in the way that the 7,1 wasn't due to its ability to have anywhere from almost no GPU power to an absolute monster amount.

Also I struggle to see how Apple justifies the prices for these higher end systems as anything other than "Hey we spent a lot of money on R&D and you guys have money so if you could just give it to us that would be great".
 

Stevenyo

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2020
310
478
Exactly the same paradigm as the 7,1 - slotted RAM, of-the-shelf GPUs etc, but with a different processor. That's what would make it better than it is.

None of the compromises this machine imposes are bought with an advantage over a Mac Studio, unless you acknowledge that Thunderbolt isn't actually up to its task of "stable PCI on a wire", and that you actually have to have slots.
No one thinks thunderbolt is PCIe on a wire. Its PCIe 3.0x4 bandwidth with more overhead. Just one of the MacPro's x16 slots has more bandwidth than all the TB on a mac studio.

Slotted DDR5 in dual channel mode has about the bandwidth ofspending $1600 to get 16TB of NVMe across two x16 PCIe slots. Use that all as swap/RAM at up to 64GB/s and your giant 192GB of 800GB/s "Cache" isn't so puny anymore.

I'm not saying that we can't list magical specs we'd all prefer, but in the reality of what Apple Silicon is, there is nothing else we could have expected from this. I do hope there are compute PCIe cards for this or later Mac Pros, to expand capabilities, but realistically anyone who needs to do more than make a wedding video in Final Cut or help record a song in Logic left the Mac over the last decade, and it's not worth it to Apple to spend billions trying to chase back a few thousand customers who are happier on linux anyway.
 

randy85

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
150
136
Here's a question - if they did manage to make an Extreme chip (46 core CPU, 152 core GPU, 384GB RAM) would people be more positive about the future of the Mac Pro? Everyone seems to be screaming out for AMD GPUs, but would a beefier Apple Silicon GPU do it for any of you?
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
Here's a question - if they did manage to make an Extreme chip (46 core CPU, 152 core GPU, 384GB RAM) would people be more positive about the future of the Mac Pro? Everyone seems to be screaming out for AMD GPUs, but would a beefier Apple Silicon GPU do it for any of you?
Absolutely. I'd much prefer it.

The CPU side of Apple silicon is absolutely fantastic. I think most of us assumed that when the M1 came out, with its incredible CPU and rather weak GPU, that the GPU would be coming soon - that Apple would do everything in its power to do for the GPU what they had just done for the CPU.

Instead, the Mac Pro has just launched with essentially the same GPU family that came out almost 3 years ago in the M1, except it's bigger and I think it's starting to dawn on a lot of us that the GPU power and features we've been waiting for is never coming.
 

Stevenyo

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2020
310
478
Absolutely. I'd much prefer it.

The CPU side of Apple silicon is absolutely fantastic. I think most of us assumed that when the M1 came out, with its incredible CPU and rather weak GPU, that the GPU would be coming soon - that Apple would do everything in its power to do for the GPU what they had just done for the CPU.

Instead, the Mac Pro has just launched with essentially the same GPU family that came out almost 3 years ago in the M1, except it's bigger and I think it's starting to dawn on a lot of us that the GPU power and features we've been waiting for is never coming.
Never is a long time, and there are many features of an M series SoC that rival or beat even high end dGPUs, but yeah, I wouldn't bet on there ever being a 400W Apple silicon 4090 rival, they seem more than happy to cede the tiny fraction of the gaming/workstation market that needs hardware like that to companies that make datacenter/server hardware like nVidia. Consumer gaming and workstation is in a really bad spot these days, the GPU development can be better spent on everything else. SoCs for everything from phones to consoles to macs, data center ML or other compute accelerators, etc. Most of what kept consumer GPU development alive the last ~5 years was the boom-bust crypto market, with consumers winning in the busts and getting shafted in the booms. But crypto seems at best to be in super deep hibernation (good riddance!) while the next boom is in AI/ML accelerators, which don't translate as easily into consumer GPUs. Point being, I doubt it's just apple that won't give you the dGPU of your dreams soon. There's just not enough market to make dGPU development feasible at a price consumers can/will pay. Unless something changes I bet even PCs start to lose dGPU options over the next 5 years.
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
there are many features of an M series SoC that rival or beat even high end dGPUs
The GPU in the brand new Mac Pro is identical feature-wise to the GPU in the almost 2 year old iPhone 13 mini (both are metal Apple8 family).

I guess there are some features related to the architecture itself like memoryless targets and tile memory, but on the whole these are GPUs that are playing catchup (and are doing it very very slowly) and don't have any of the exciting new features available on current-gen windows dGPU.

You could be correct that dGPUs will eventually go the way of the dinosaur, but that's a problem for the future.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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No one thinks thunderbolt is PCIe on a wire. Its PCIe 3.0x4 bandwidth with more overhead. Just one of the MacPro's x16 slots has more bandwidth than all the TB on a mac studio.

Slotted DDR5 in dual channel mode has about the bandwidth ofspending $1600 to get 16TB of NVMe across two x16 PCIe slots. Use that all as swap/RAM at up to 64GB/s and your giant 192GB of 800GB/s "Cache" isn't so puny anymore.

I'm not saying that we can't list magical specs we'd all prefer, but in the reality of what Apple Silicon is, there is nothing else we could have expected from this. I do hope there are compute PCIe cards for this or later Mac Pros, to expand capabilities, but realistically anyone who needs to do more than make a wedding video in Final Cut or help record a song in Logic left the Mac over the last decade, and it's not worth it to Apple to spend billions trying to chase back a few thousand customers who are happier on linux anyway.
Please tell me why it’s impossible to have drivers for 3rd party GPUs. There is no technical limitation.

Sorry, Ssd is not a replacement for ram. They could include ram. Other providers included both a soc and ram in their implementatio. Nothing stops either of those things technically.

Note is it also possible to get pci5 or an m3 extreme.

If enough people rage their displeasure at the 8,1, and call it the dud non-Mac pro it is, like they did at the trashcan, we can get apple to do these things. However, if everyone becomes an apologist, all hope is lost.
 

singhs.apps

macrumors 6502a
Oct 27, 2016
660
400
Here's a question - if they did manage to make an Extreme chip (46 core CPU, 152 core GPU, 384GB RAM) would people be more positive about the future of the Mac Pro? Everyone seems to be screaming out for AMD GPUs, but would a beefier Apple Silicon GPU do it for any of you?
Yes please.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,341
2,975
Australia
Here's a question - if they did manage to make an Extreme chip (46 core CPU, 152 core GPU, 384GB RAM) would people be more positive about the future of the Mac Pro? Everyone seems to be screaming out for AMD GPUs, but would a beefier Apple Silicon GPU do it for any of you?

I'm not going to buy a 5-figure piece of capital plant that is a soldered appliance, when it relies on continued software, especially security software suport to remain in service.

Doesn't matter how "good" AS GPUs are.

Appliances are cheap and disposable - I don't are about my XBox having fixed ram, because it only costs AU$800, but when Apple wants me to spend AU$8000 on a Mac Studio, which will no doubt have a much shorter supported software life, nope.

Wrong paradigm.
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
I'm not going to buy a 5-figure piece of capital plant that is a soldered appliance, when it relies on continued software, especially security software suport to remain in service.

Doesn't matter how "good" AS GPUs are.

Appliances are cheap and disposable - I don't are about my XBox having fixed ram, because it only costs AU$800, but when Apple wants me to spend AU$8000 on a Mac Studio, which will no doubt have a much shorter supported software life, nope.

Wrong paradigm.
I feel like Apple were presented with a trilemma:

The Mac Pro can be: (pick at most 2 of 3)

* Expensive
* Slow
* Non-upgradeable

Unfortunately they picked all 3.

I'd have been fine with expensive and non-upgradeable if it was incredibly fast. Or expensive and slow if it could be upgraded. Or slow and non-upgradeable if it was cheap...
 

randy85

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
150
136
I'm not going to buy a 5-figure piece of capital plant that is a soldered appliance, when it relies on continued software, especially security software suport to remain in service.

Doesn't matter how "good" AS GPUs are.

Appliances are cheap and disposable - I don't are about my XBox having fixed ram, because it only costs AU$800, but when Apple wants me to spend AU$8000 on a Mac Studio, which will no doubt have a much shorter supported software life, nope.

Wrong paradigm.
I get the peace of mind of being able to swap out bad RAM or whatever.

Why do you think a Mac Studio will have a shorter supported software life though? What sort of lifespan are you after?

I'd personally say that ~7 years is a very good lifespan for a computer, as after this you'll likely be missing out on things like faster ports, wifi standards etc.

I have noticed that some Mac Pro enthusiasts keep their machine going for a ridiculously long time. like 15+ years. Which is both impressive and crazy to me.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,422
2,108
Berlin
I feel like Apple were presented with a trilemma:

The Mac Pro can be: (pick at most 2 of 3)

* Expensive
* Slow
* Non-upgradeable

Unfortunately they picked all 3.

I'd have been fine with expensive and non-upgradeable if it was incredibly fast. Or expensive and slow if it could be upgraded. Or slow and non-upgradeable if it was cheap...
I think it‘s super obvious that they engineered themselves into a dead end once again. NO WAY they INTENDED to release THIS Mac Pro. This could have never taken them that long to develop. The question nis, do they continue to develop A more extreme version of this chip, or is this the end?
 
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orionquest

Suspended
Mar 16, 2022
871
791
The Great White North
Here's a question - if they did manage to make an Extreme chip (46 core CPU, 152 core GPU, 384GB RAM) would people be more positive about the future of the Mac Pro? Everyone seems to be screaming out for AMD GPUs, but would a beefier Apple Silicon GPU do it for any of you?
No, it's not just about the chip speeds but the flexibility of expansion.

Say this hot new GPU comes out a year or 2 after you purchase it, and it literally blows the doors off everything, or it includes some new thing.
What do you do with a MacPro, nothing it's now a great paper weight.

I'm sure there are plenty of other situations where the MacPro will fall short, and well the competition doesn't have this problem. It's a Pro Mac you should be allowed to do what you want with it, especially at that price.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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I think it‘s super obvious that they engineered themselves into a dead end once again. NO WAY they INTENDED to release THIS Mac Pro. This could have never taken them that long to develop. The question nis, do they continue to develop A more extreme version of this chip, or is this the end?
This machine is so bad i refuse to call it a Mac Pro. If you can’t add 3rd party GPUs it’s not a real Mac Pro. Ala Homer Simpson, I crown thee, the Mac ‘Doh!

All they need to do to turn this around are these 3 things:

1) Add support for GPUs
2) Add the ability to upgrade additional ram (and either extend the SOC ram or treat it like cache like we’ve seen elsewhere). And make the ram ECC.
3) Add the ability to replace/upgrade the SOC itself
 
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orionquest

Suspended
Mar 16, 2022
871
791
The Great White North
I think it‘s super obvious that they engineered themselves into a dead end once again. NO WAY they INTENDED to release THIS Mac Pro. This could have never taken them that long to develop. The question nis, do they continue to develop A more extreme version of this chip, or is this the end?
There are some thoughts going around (elsewhere, maybe mentioned here) this is a interim product meant only to complete the transition to all AS lineup.

Eitherway I think this product is even though seems very capable, is a disappointment.
 
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randy85

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
150
136
No, it's not just about the chip speeds but the flexibility of expansion.

Say this hot new GPU comes out a year or 2 after you purchase it, and it literally blows the doors off everything, or it includes some new thing.
What do you do with a MacPro, nothing it's now a great paper weight.

I'm sure there are plenty of other situations where the MacPro will fall short, and well the competition doesn't have this problem. It's a Pro Mac you should be allowed to do what you want with it, especially at that price.

It does feel like a refresh service you you could send it in and have the new chip (and motherboard if required) swapped would be meeting people half-way and tackle e-waste. The case is extremely high quality and should have a long service life.

When it comes to adding stuff in yourself - I just really think people are having a hard time letting go of the fact these aren't PCs and they'll never take off the shelf RAM and gaming cards.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,341
2,975
Australia
I get the peace of mind of being able to swap out bad RAM or whatever.

It's not just that, it's being able to buy into a system, and then grow it as your needs (and budget) grows over its life.

Frontloading the entire cost of the device when all of the components are at their newest and most expensive is less than ideal.

Why do you think a Mac Studio will have a shorter supported software life though? What sort of lifespan are you after?

My experience with iOS devices is that every software update makes them worse, until eventually you have to get rid of them, because doing the same things you were doing when they were new becomes unbearably slow.

In terms of supported lifespans, personally I think as soon as software stops receiving security updates, its sourcecode should be nationalised and made public domain.

I'd personally say that ~7 years is a very good lifespan for a computer, as after this you'll likely be missing out on things like faster ports, wifi standards etc.

unless all those components were provided through card-based hardware provisioned by slots that are significantly higher bandwidth than any of those standards offer.

I have noticed that some Mac Pro enthusiasts keep their machine going for a ridiculously long time. like 15+ years. Which is both impressive and crazy to me.

A vintage car is still capable of being just as effective as it was the day it was sold.
 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
No we don't; but on paper the W6800XDuo has better compute. But then again there are only a handful of apps that actually benefit from dual or quad GPUs.

If I had a re-do I think I would have bought the W6900X instead.
I love my W6900X. I was really hoping for W7900X. Might have to pick up the PC version for Windows.
 
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orionquest

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Mar 16, 2022
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The Great White North
When it comes to adding stuff in yourself - I just really think people are having a hard time letting go of the fact these aren't PCs and they'll never take off the shelf RAM and gaming cards.
Wow you sound like the perfect Apple customer.

In your example why even bother selling a computer with PCI slots so you can put in cards. Or should you send in your MacPro to the Apple store for them to do it for you?? :rolleyes:
 

Stevenyo

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2020
310
478
The GPU in the brand new Mac Pro is identical feature-wise to the GPU in the almost 2 year old iPhone 13 mini (both are metal Apple8 family).

I guess there are some features related to the architecture itself like memoryless targets and tile memory, but on the whole these are GPUs that are playing catchup (and are doing it very very slowly) and don't have any of the exciting new features available on current-gen windows dGPU.

You could be correct that dGPUs will eventually go the way of the dinosaur, but that's a problem for the future.
The newest GPUs supported by intel MacOS are RDNA2 based, from late 2020, so age of cores isn’t the win you seem to think it is.

And yeah, the pure “gpu” part of the “gpu” on the SoC isn’t amazing, I’d rather have RDNA 3 or Ada cores using that die space budget than apple’s cores. But things like the media engines and other specialized accelerators make an Apple SoC better at many specific tasks than even a generalized GPU with 10x the power budget. The fact that the gpu of an M1 or M2 ultra can access 100GB+ of RAM at 800GB/s without a cpu or PCIe bottleneck is something no other GPU can do.

And that’s part of why dGPUs are dead men walking — duplicating RAM in two places, plus adding system bottlenecks and overhead is not a winning strategy now that on package RAM and huge SoC dies are possible. If AMD built a consumer SoC using zen 4 and RDNA 3 using the number of transistors and die size of an M2 ultra, it would demolish their 7950x plus 7900xtx CPU plus GPU, as the m series chip has more transistors than those two combined as well as the massive improvements that lack of overhead and unified memory bring. The future is SoCs, it can’t be avoided. You could have 24+ cores of zen 4, plus at least the entirety of a 7900xtx plus all the extra accelerators apple uses, plus huge cache, plus 800+ GB/second access to 100+ GB of shared RAM. And they wouldn’t be designed to sip power like apple’s designs, AMD would tune that mother to put out a combined 500 watts with some sort of monster cooler. It’d be expensive as hell, but it’d make building your own PC from off the shelf parts feel like hooking up a horse and buggy for the Indy 500.

It’s lame for us tinkerers and upgraders, but the future is SoCs. There was a time you could build a whole state of the art computer with an article from a a magazine and access to radioshack. Then we needed a few specialized components only PC makers supplied, now building a computer has evolved into attaching about 6 proprietary, highly complex parts to a case and power supply, and soon even the RAM, CPU and GPU will merge into one part. But hey, you can still pick your cooler, “motherboard” case and powersupply!
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
The newest GPUs supported by intel MacOS are RDNA2 based, from late 2020, so age of cores isn’t the win you seem to think it is.
Yeah my point was that it has the same features as an old phone GPU.
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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And now there is hope!

Btw, I bet that Asahi Linux will provide full third party PCIe GPU support (obviously for the GPUs that already have Linux ARM drivers) with the new Mac Pro in the week that the first developer gets one.

 
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Stevenyo

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2020
310
478
Yeah my point was that it has the same features as an old phone GPU.
And I could argue that the most powerful MPX GPU has the same features as sub $330 thin and light laptop’s (Mendocino) GPU, but on an older node (7nm vs 6nm). It’s a meaningless point. All GPU designers use the same core for everything from 5w to 500w applications.
 
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