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MapleBeercules

Cancelled
Nov 9, 2023
127
157
The release of M3, M3 Pro and M3 Max are nearly 5 months behind, they were slated for July 2023, we know this by the fact they had previous operating systems on them and were locked from updated to the current. This is due to the 3nm process, which is coming in multiple forms including N3B, N3E and N3P etc... N3B is basically the first go at making 3nm chips and its terrible production quality and rates, hence the large % of binned processors, this is part of the manufacturing process, if the process fails because of 1 bad core, they can disable the core and sell it as the lower model. TSMC failed to make N3B or N3 Baseline anywhere near as good as apple required so apple had to hold up because of lack of production.

Its highly likely we will see M4 chips in the next revision vs m3 for the studio just because its a new type of manufacturing process so it carries generations improvements such as lower power consumption or high clock speeds.

Either way this release was 100% driven by TSMC and not by apple.



a great video explain what I talked about above.
 
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Harry Haller

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2023
545
1,203
Maybe Apple discontinues Mac Studio because it flopped and thats why it didn’t receive M3. Thoughts?
I believe the AS Mac Pro will turn out to be the flop and end up abandonware like the Trashcan and iMac pro. Looks like the Studio Ultra and hopefully Exteme versions are the future of Apple high performance desktops.
 

MapleBeercules

Cancelled
Nov 9, 2023
127
157
Seems like that there is significant market overlap (for a relatively limited market) between the Ultra Studio and the Mac Pro.
I would hope that the differences between the studio and pro would be customization or upgradability on the pro.
But understand everything now is being driven by apple keeping a positive revenue stream, they had a 34% drop in macbook sales, gotta cut somewhere.
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,159
10,925
Seattle, WA
Unless they go to an "all one day" release strategy, in which the Ultra comes out in October alongside the other three chips, they have a problem. There will be a time when the Mac Studio (and Mac Pro if they bother) are a year behind the laptops. Even in a year where the performance increase is only 10 or 15%, that's not great - and in a year like this one, when they added a bunch of performance cores and GPU features to the Max, they could be in the embarrassing situation where their fastest machine is a laptop.

Apple sells multiples times more laptops than they do desktops, so I am sure they feel no shame if the MacBook Pro is the fastest machine on offer for a period of time.

It is also possible that when the Studio and Pro move to M3, they will be using N3P or N3X which will allow higher clock speeds both due to the process enhancements and the better cooling.
 
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CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,159
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Seattle, WA
Seems like that there is significant market overlap (for a relatively limited market) between the Ultra Studio and the Mac Pro.

There is. The only reason to buy a Mac Pro now is because you require internal PCIe expansion for storage or audio/video capture.
 

tothemoonsands

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2018
530
1,138
I hope the M3 Studio comes out in the first half of 2024. If the Ultra isn’t quite ready, they should just release the Max. Seems like M2 Max Studio sales are cannibalized now, so why not?
 
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Harry Haller

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2023
545
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Studio M3 32/80 Ultra announced at WWDC.

One more thing…
Mac Pro M3 64/160 Extreme announced in October.
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,159
10,925
Seattle, WA
I believe it is arguably too early in the cycle to release the MAX Studio before WWDC. A WWDC launch could also allow the MAX to move to the cheaper N3E process and that should allow the base studio to keep its $1999 price (otherwise I expect it to rise to $2199).
 

fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
1,789
1,487
I believe it is arguably too early in the cycle to release the MAX Studio before WWDC. A WWDC launch could also allow the MAX to move to the cheaper N3E process and that should allow the base studio to keep its $1999 price (otherwise I expect it to rise to $2199).


Yeah I would surprised we see it before then. Apple is gonna want to make a big deal out of the event with the Ultra.

Max Tech video also brings up the Apple Vision Pro will be the big release early next year so focus on that(though to be fair that isn't worldwide release).
 

Pezimak

macrumors 68040
May 1, 2021
3,055
3,382
I hope the M3 Studio comes out in the first half of 2024. If the Ultra isn’t quite ready, they should just release the Max. Seems like M2 Max Studio sales are cannibalized now, so why not?

I guess you need to think when did they upgrade it to the M2? It’s possible though. They’ll probably upgrade the Pro at the same time I imagine.
 

danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
616
They're going to have a hard time selling leftover M2 Ultra Studios (even now, and especially once the M3 versions come out). The only performance advantage over the M3 Max is that the 76 core GPU is significantly faster than the 40 core in the full-throttle M3 Max (the 60 core is only marginally faster, but the 76 core is significant). Two of the three RAM options are the same (there's another advantage for the M2 Ultra if you need 192 GB - but a lot of users who want 192 GB will also want the M3 Ultra).

Yes, the $1999 M3 Max Mac Studio will use the binned CPU, and the full-throttle version will be around $2499-$2699, depending on what upgrades it comes with - but it'll be awfully darned close to a $4999 machine in performance. I wouldn't pay much more for an M2 Ultra than for a comparably specced M3 Max - you get about about 30% extra GPU performance (with the 76-core) and turn two USB ports on the front into Thunderbolt, but you pay for it with double the power consumption and double the (modest in any case) room heating. The 76-core M2 Ultra will have to take a two thousand-dollar plus price cut to be attractive - it's a $500 upgrade at most over a M3 Max... Leftover 60-core M2 Ultras will probably have to sell BELOW the price of a full-throttle M3 Max.

The M3 Ultra will, of course, be a beast. - especially the full-throttle version. There is a problem, though - rapidly multiplying Mac Studio SKUs. Since there are two significantly different M3 Max chips (not a simple difference in GPU cores only like the M1 and M2, but also memory capacity, memory bandwidth and CPU P-cores). Perhaps the most telling example of this problem is the memory configurations (the M3 Max memory configurations are confusing enough, and the Studio will double it). If Apple follows their usual practice, one model or another will have RAM configurations of 36, 48, 64, 72, 96 (2x), 128 (2x), 192 and 256 gigabytes. All except 96 and 128 GB will be reachable only with a single processor choice, and even those options can only be reached on two of four choices.

One possible simplification would be to offer only two (or maybe three) CPU choices. Binned M3 Max is essential, because it offers the entry level price point (unless they can get the binned M3 Max into a Mac Mini). I could see them getting the binned M3 Max into a Mini, and moving up the price on the entry level Studio (the Studio's extra ports, card reader and 10 Gb Ethernet only come with a more expensive CPU), but I can't see them jumping from the M3 Pro Mini to a full-throttle M3 Max Studio that will come in over $2500. They have to have a $2000 desktop using the binned M3 Max, especially given the repositioning of the M3 Pro (an M3 Pro Mini is a less viable replacement for an M3 Max Studio than in the last generation), but it could be a Mac Mini if the thermals fit?

The other essential configuration is probably full-throttle M3 Ultra. There are users in the creative arts and in science (among other fields), who need the very best, and will pay for it. There are also people who will buy it for the Ultimate Safari Experience, where any MacBook Air with 16 GB of RAM would have worked just fine, but they want the Best - they also drive S-class Mercedes to the grocery store.

Do they need a full-throttle M3 Max configuration (if the binned model is a Mac Studio rather than a Mini)? Do they need a binned M3 Ultra (unless the chips are lying around because of yields)? They certainly need a Mac Studio less expensive than the big one, and just a Mini won't do, even if they get the M3 Max into the Mini chassis. The full-throttle M3 Max is probably more appealing than the binned M3 Ultra, assuming that the price difference is significant. If yields mean that the binned M3 Ultra could be similarly priced, then it is the more appealing of the two.
 
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Chuckeee

macrumors 68000
Aug 18, 2023
1,987
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Southern California
The other essential configuration is probably full-throttle M3 Ultra. There are users in the creative arts and in science (among other fields), who need the very best, and will pay for it. There are also people who will buy it for the Ultimate Safari Experience, where any MacBook Air with 16 GB of RAM would have worked just fine, but they want the Best - they also drive S-class Mercedes to the grocery store.

Maybe the full-throttle M3 will only be available on the Mac Pro?
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,159
10,925
Seattle, WA
Maybe the full-throttle M3 will only be available on the Mac Pro?

Extremely unlikely, IMO.

The Mac Pro is only there for people who require internal PCIe expansion for niche applications. The overwhelming majority of Ultra sales will be in Mac Studios and Apple is not going to want to lose those sales by (trying to) force(ing) people to spend significantly more for a Mac Pro to get the "best" Ultra configuration.
 

danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
616
I think the most likely Mac Pro only configuration (and the only one that can save the Mac Pro) is a quad-Max "M3 Extreme" (or maybe it's an M4 Extreme, if it takes them another generation). There's a legitimate need for the Mac Pro case there, because that theoretical chip could dissipate as much as 400 watts or more. A full-throttle M3 Max can dissipate 140 watts for a brief period, and can run the battery down in 1 hour and 11 minutes under an artificial load test, which suggests that it can sustain 75-80 watts. A Razer Blade 16, which is quite a bit slower overall than the Mac (although its GPU is modestly faster in creative tests and quite a bit faster in gaming tests) can easily double both of those power consumption figures, sustaining about 150 watts and bursting as high as 300 or so.

Apple says that the maximum full-system draw for a Mac Studio M2 Ultra is 295 watts - right around double the burst draw of the M3 Max, which suggests that these ballpark figures are actually in the ballpark.

Multiply the draws of the M3 Max by four for a hypothetical M3 Extreme... I'd be surprised if a Mac Studio case could cool 320ish watts sustained with a peak near 600 watts? Even that power dissipation (which is MUCH higher than I've seen under real-world load testing - it's furmark or something equivalent) is NOTHING compared to a PC workstation of similar power.

A PC that powerful would have a CPU alone with a ~350 watt TDP figure (a big Xeon or Threadripper) if not dual CPUs, with higher burst consumption. It would probably have dual GPUs, each rated over 300 watts. It would sustain a kilowatt or so, bursting quite a bit higher than that. If it were dual CPU, it could easily run over 1.25 KW under sustained load.

Even though the Mac is massively more efficient, an M3 Extreme would still probably push the limits of the Mac Studio chassis in a couple of ways. One is whether even the big copper heat sink used on the Ultra would cool that chip, especially with an Apple-acceptable level of fan noise. The second is that the package size might be pushing it even in terms of physically fitting in the Studio chassis. The M2 Ultra package is larger than a Sapphire Rapids Xeon that measures 82x62 mm (I looked all over the place, and couldn't find the actual package size of the Ultra anywhere - but it looks close to 100x100mm including the on-package DRAM). )An M3 Extreme package would be considerably larger - say 100x150mm or more???). That would fit in a Studio case, which is about 20 cm on a side, but with VERY little clearance - probably not enough clearance to accommodate extra logic chips, ports, etc.

The Mac Pro case solves both of those problems, and it gives the Mac Pro a special chip. I don't know whether Apple's interposer technology would let them do interposers on multiple sides.
 
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CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,159
10,925
Seattle, WA
Apple couldn't make the "M1 Extreme" work so not sure if they will be able to do so with a future generation.

And even if they could, it should be in the Mac Studio, as well, because it is a more reasonable desktop for almost every "pro power user" in the Apple Silicon era.
 
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