Here you can see the screen recorded at 240fps in all levels of brightness. Near 0 brightness there are some weird banding going from left to right, is this PWM?
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MacBook Pro 14” 2021 PWM screen flickering?
- Thread starter ignaciobarrena
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Here you can see the screen recorded at 240fps in all levels of brightness. Near 0 brightness there are some weird banding going from left to right, is this PWM?
Here we go already. Everyone trying to find flaws in ultra slow mo videos. Get it. Use it, don’t look for fault and if you can’t see any, don’t concern yourself with those that can.
This is not about looking for “flaws” in slo-mo videos. Some users are sensitive to PWM flickering and it’s a health concern.
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Pwm is indeed a concern but i don’t see any banding, I must be blind.
Here you can see the screen recorded at 240fps in all levels of brightness. Near 0 brightness there are some weird banding going from left to right, is this PWM?
I'm picking up the 14" later today and will contribute to this discussion and add videos- PWM affects me significantly. I also hardly ever use laptops at brightness that low, so might work for me. I'd rather have low freq pwm at low brightness levels than across all levels...
Edit, Looks like 11/16 stages without PWM- so rough math, that would be PWM at 30% and below. I can see the lines starting at the 5th increment from bottom brightness.
30% of ~450 nits is 135.5, assuming those brightness levels are proportionate.
I would say in this moderately lit office, that 50% and above is the right brightness- I would guess that its much lower than 135 nits at 30% of the brightness increments using the buttons.
Too early to tell if the other Macos factors (dithering etc) are causing me eyestrain but I will keep the discussion updated.
Edit, Looks like 11/16 stages without PWM- so rough math, that would be PWM at 30% and below. I can see the lines starting at the 5th increment from bottom brightness.
30% of ~450 nits is 135.5, assuming those brightness levels are proportionate.
I would say in this moderately lit office, that 50% and above is the right brightness- I would guess that its much lower than 135 nits at 30% of the brightness increments using the buttons.
Too early to tell if the other Macos factors (dithering etc) are causing me eyestrain but I will keep the discussion updated.
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I'm very interested in this as well. I'm planning on checking this out at the store and trying to use it there for a bit, hoping I don't have issues.
Edit: looks like notebook check has confirmed PWM at all brightness levels,
www.notebookcheck.net
Edit: looks like notebook check has confirmed PWM at all brightness levels,
The Apple MacBook Pro 14 M1 has arrived and reveals some problems
The new MacBook Pro 14 with the M1 Pro SoC has finally arrived and we want to describe our first impressions of the chassis, the notch in the display as well as the speakers. Both the display as well as the performance do not really meet the high expectations though.
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The Apple MacBook Pro 14 M1 has arrived and reveals some problems
The new MacBook Pro 14 with the M1 Pro SoC has finally arrived and we want to describe our first impressions of the chassis, the notch in the display as well as the speakers. Both the display as well as the performance do not really meet the high expectations though.
www.notebookcheck.net
The Apple MacBook Pro 14 M1 has arrived and reveals some problems
The new MacBook Pro 14 with the M1 Pro SoC has finally arrived and we want to describe our first impressions of the chassis, the notch in the display as well as the speakers. Both the display as well as the performance do not really meet the high expectations though.
Display - 14-inch Mini-LED with Notch and PWM
Let's start with the camera notch, which is located in the upper area of the screen and it is obviously immediately visible. Apple basically uses a 16:10 panel with additional space next to the notch, which are used for the menu bar. When you use apps in fullscreen mode like Safari with YouTube, for example, this area disappears and you use the regular 16:10 screen. The subjective picture impression of the panel is very good and you can also notice the 120 Hz compared to the regular 60 Hz mode.Like the Mini-LED screen on the current Ipad Pro, we can once again detect constant PWM flickering at 14.8 kHz at all brightness levels. The frequency is very high, but it might still cause problems when you are sensitive to the flickering. We are still testing the brightness, because our first results showed that the luminance is capped at just 500 nits for SDR contents.
Display - 14-inch Mini-LED with Notch and PWM
Let's start with the camera notch, which is located in the upper area of the screen and it is obviously immediately visible. Apple basically uses a 16:10 panel with additional space next to the notch, which are used for the menu bar. When you use apps in fullscreen mode like Safari with YouTube, for example, this area disappears and you use the regular 16:10 screen. The subjective picture impression of the panel is very good and you can also notice the 120 Hz compared to the regular 60 Hz mode.
Like the Mini-LED screen on the current Ipad Pro, we can once again detect constant PWM flickering at 14.8 kHz at all brightness levels. The frequency is very high, but it might still cause problems when you are sensitive to the flickering. We are still testing the brightness, because our first results showed that the luminance is capped at just 500 nits for SDR contents.
I'm hoping because it's so high that maybe it wont be a problem for me, only way to know is to use it, just sucks that I can't use PWM devices.
To those that aren't aware of PWM (Pulse Width Modulation), this is literally what's happening to our eyes, which causes the migraines, headaches, nausea, eye strains and eye fatigue. Our brain is slow and we do not perceive this in real time, but our eyes are fast and our iris starts to open and close like this (look at the GIF).
eye-pwm-flicker.gif
eye-pwm-flicker.gif
I too have problems with PWM flickering, but I don't know what the lowest usable frequency is for me. I know I can comfortably use a MacBook Air 13" 2012 and a MacBook Pro 13" 2013, but the latter doesn't use PWM and I don't know the frequency of the former. I do know for sure that anything under 2 kHz is bad and I think anything above 100 kHz is OK for me.
It's unfortunate that absolutely nobody talks about this in any reviews. More than that, you're liable to find people that mock you and tell you you're looking for faults, without having the slightest clue what they're talking about. I'm almost certain that most people don't even know about this issue, and they wonder why most laptops give them headaches. They probably think it's just their eyes or it's just how LCD monitors are.
MacBooks didn't use to have this problem in the past. I can't use most non-Apple laptops these days, so I really hope I can still safely get an Apple laptop without having to think about this issue.
Apparently, the iPhone uses PWM at < 300 Hz starting with iPhone 10 up to the latest iPhone. Sure enough, people are starting to have headaches and can no longer use iPhones to read e-books comfortably. So I'm starting to get a bit concerned.
@-Shock-, please do keep us up to date about how the 14.8 kHz PWM on this laptop feels, especially at low brightness. 14.8 kHz doesn't sound bad, so I'm hopeful.
It's unfortunate that absolutely nobody talks about this in any reviews. More than that, you're liable to find people that mock you and tell you you're looking for faults, without having the slightest clue what they're talking about. I'm almost certain that most people don't even know about this issue, and they wonder why most laptops give them headaches. They probably think it's just their eyes or it's just how LCD monitors are.
MacBooks didn't use to have this problem in the past. I can't use most non-Apple laptops these days, so I really hope I can still safely get an Apple laptop without having to think about this issue.
Apparently, the iPhone uses PWM at < 300 Hz starting with iPhone 10 up to the latest iPhone. Sure enough, people are starting to have headaches and can no longer use iPhones to read e-books comfortably. So I'm starting to get a bit concerned.
@-Shock-, please do keep us up to date about how the 14.8 kHz PWM on this laptop feels, especially at low brightness. 14.8 kHz doesn't sound bad, so I'm hopeful.
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I'm on the fence about this, I played around the the 14 inch at BestBuy for about 20 minutes yesterday with the brightness pretty low and didn't seem to feel anything.
At this point I may just have to buy it and try it with how I work to see if there's any issues. I suppose that's what return polices are for right?
It sucks we're at this point with Apple, all the new iPhones use PWM at much lower frequencies and the iPad's (with exception of the Air) are heading that way as well. Going to have to hang onto my iPhone 11 as long as I can.
I don't expect Apple to make their whole lineup PWM free but at least give us one device that doesn't have it in each product family (iPhone 11/SE, iPad Air 4) looking at you Macbooks.
At this point I may just have to buy it and try it with how I work to see if there's any issues. I suppose that's what return polices are for right?
It sucks we're at this point with Apple, all the new iPhones use PWM at much lower frequencies and the iPad's (with exception of the Air) are heading that way as well. Going to have to hang onto my iPhone 11 as long as I can.
I don't expect Apple to make their whole lineup PWM free but at least give us one device that doesn't have it in each product family (iPhone 11/SE, iPad Air 4) looking at you Macbooks.
Not sure if PWM is my problem as I'm just learning about the term today. But the 16" is brutal for me, my eyes are strained and I get dizzy in minutes. Black text on white background looks like it's oscillating slowly to me. Definitively can't use the one I got and will be returning it. Back to scalding my lap with my Intel i9 MBP.
Don't enforce your method to deal with sunk cost fallacy on us. Comments like yours should be deleted. Intelligent people don't like to spend 3-4 thousand dollars on a product that has issues which it absolutely shouldn't have. Period. Not only does the screen have slow response times but it apparently has PWM at ALL BRIGHTNESS LEVELS. That's really bad and you are not even knowledgeable enough to understand why.
Chill. At the time, I didn't realise this was something people were particularly sensitive to. I understand this now and am fortunate that it doesn't affect me at all.
Maybe next time, before you come out with such a fanboy shill comment, you will do 2 seconds of research,lmao.
It's funny that I didn't even know about PWM before trying to use a non-Apple laptop a few years ago. I never had this problem in the past, I could use any CRT and LCD monitor comfortably. But apparently, to make laptops cheaper, everyone started using PWM at one point. And the lower the frequency, the more cents they save.
I tried using a Lenovo E laptop. Everything sounded amazing about it. Great specs, keyboard, screen, build, etc., just incredibly cheap and I couldn't understand why. Well, I found out why. I used it for a few hours and I was beginning to feel like my eyes were trying to escape their sockets, but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. Then I learned about PWM.
Looks like I was shielded from this PWM phenomenon by the fact that I used Apple products and never had to think about it. So I assumed that an Apple laptop is always safe to buy, and if everything looks good about it, then it's likely just as good as it looks, no one is sneakily trying to hide an inferior PWM controlled screen to make the product cheaper (or, in Apple's case, to probably make the battery last longer).
And I hope that's still true, although I'm now starting to have doubts.
I tried using a Lenovo E laptop. Everything sounded amazing about it. Great specs, keyboard, screen, build, etc., just incredibly cheap and I couldn't understand why. Well, I found out why. I used it for a few hours and I was beginning to feel like my eyes were trying to escape their sockets, but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. Then I learned about PWM.
Looks like I was shielded from this PWM phenomenon by the fact that I used Apple products and never had to think about it. So I assumed that an Apple laptop is always safe to buy, and if everything looks good about it, then it's likely just as good as it looks, no one is sneakily trying to hide an inferior PWM controlled screen to make the product cheaper (or, in Apple's case, to probably make the battery last longer).
And I hope that's still true, although I'm now starting to have doubts.
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PWM is not a technology to reduce the price. From a German page:
www.mothergrid.de
The mini led backlight contains thousands of LED's. You can't control it at the same level without PWM:
Also HUE bulbs are using PWM.
Dimming LED lights: Basics and difficulties – #mothergrid
Dimming options, what is behind the frequency that can so often be set in LED fixtures, and the influence of internal resolution on dimming behaviour.
www.mothergrid.de
The mini led backlight contains thousands of LED's. You can't control it at the same level without PWM:
Also HUE bulbs are using PWM.
The 16" is brutal for me as well. Tried it again this morning and I'm horribly dizzy and nauseous. Pretty crazy. Turning off promotion helps, but it is not enough for me. I will try the 14" next to see if it is any better, but the video in this thread does not give me high hopes. I am fine with the M1 Air and every other Mac I have owned. I also have no issue with the M1 12.9" iPad Pro.
Does anybody have a high quality external monitor recommendation that they know is PWM free?
I haven't really figured out the full details of my issue yet. But I'm thinking there's a correlation between screen size, PWM frequency and eye strain. I've never had the slightest of issues with the OLED iPhones while I've read that many others with the PWM there has driven people insane. Meanwhile this MBP 16" is *brutal* for me.
So I'm guessing that the eye strain is a function of the `total amount of light`, the `PWM magnitude`, the `PWM frequency` and `placeholder X` for all other unknowns.
Have you tried reduce the brightness? The default brightness is 100% but for me 60% is bright enough. Use dark mode may also help.
I know! Hence I was happy to buy the MacBook Pro. But it is totally different. I recorded a 240 fps video of the 16” and it was flickering like crazy. Totally different to how the iPad Pro looks. I don’t know what the explanation is, but it does not agree with me.
Which is one of the reasons why I opted for the 11” iPad Pro M1 that doesn’t suffer from pwm!
It's astonishing that my 2020 MBP 13" has PWM of:
To call the new screen a downgrade would be putting this lightly. I haven't noticed issues at 113khz, but 14.8 kHz? That's close to 10 times worse.
Don't buy into the reviews saying that it's the best screen ever. It's clearly not. It might look good, but extremely slow response time and such intense PWM levels are far, far away from being anything close to even good, not to mention "best".
Stay tuned for the full notebookcheck review. I assure you, that will be the first real review. Don't trust these technically illiterate youtubers who see fast export times and faint from excitement, ignoring any kind of real issues the machines actually have.
Look around. You can already see threads about temperatures too, the CPU hitting 90C instantly underload. 50 C idle temps with a plugged monitor, etc. That's no different than Intel. Actually, my 13" Intel is cooler than that since I have set manual curves. ARM was supposed to be cooler, not the same.
| 113600 Hz | ≤ 75 % brightness setting |
To call the new screen a downgrade would be putting this lightly. I haven't noticed issues at 113khz, but 14.8 kHz? That's close to 10 times worse.
Don't buy into the reviews saying that it's the best screen ever. It's clearly not. It might look good, but extremely slow response time and such intense PWM levels are far, far away from being anything close to even good, not to mention "best".
Stay tuned for the full notebookcheck review. I assure you, that will be the first real review. Don't trust these technically illiterate youtubers who see fast export times and faint from excitement, ignoring any kind of real issues the machines actually have.
Look around. You can already see threads about temperatures too, the CPU hitting 90C instantly underload. 50 C idle temps with a plugged monitor, etc. That's no different than Intel. Actually, my 13" Intel is cooler than that since I have set manual curves. ARM was supposed to be cooler, not the same.