MacBook Pro 14” 2021 PWM screen flickering?

[ignaciobarrena]

It's astonishing that my 2020 MBP 13" has PWM of:

113600 Hz

≤ 75 % brightness setting

To call the new screen a downgrade would be putting this lightly. I haven't noticed issues at 113khz, but 14.8 kHz? That's close to 10 times worse.

Don't buy into the reviews saying that it's the best screen ever. It's clearly not. It might look good, but extremely slow response time and such intense PWM levels are far, far away from being anything close to even good, not to mention "best".

Stay tuned for the full notebookcheck review. I assure you, that will be the first real review. Don't trust these technically illiterate youtubers who see fast export times and faint from excitement, ignoring any kind of real issues the machines actually have.

Look around. You can already see threads about temperatures too, the CPU hitting 90C instantly underload. 50 C idle temps with a plugged monitor, etc. That's no different than Intel. Actually, my 13" Intel is cooler than that since I have set manual curves. ARM was supposed to be cooler, not the same.

I’m with you in all you have said about the display, but I highly doubt your points about the CPU and GPU performance/temps.

This thing smokes intel in every way.

 

[Broko Fankone]

I’m with you in all you have said about the display, but I highly doubt your points about the CPU and GPU performance/temps.

This thing smokes intel in every way.

I am basing those comments on what users have reported here, in these forums. If you look around for threads about temps, such comments can be found.

Since I have no real data and youtube reviews are on the verge of being useless, I'm waiting for the full Notebookcheck review - which should arrive this weekend, so in the next couple of days. MaxTech did a temp review, but quite frankly those results seemed shady and their testing is nowhere near as rigorous as it should be. According to that review, they claimed the cpu goes into a 50C range under heavy load and that simply does not sound realistic, especially considering what users are already reporting here. Of course, thermals is something you can correct with custom fan curves. But those complaints are not in line with the first M1 laptops from 2020. If you buy an M1 Pro/Max, and it gets warm and stays warm just by having a monitor plugged to it, then it's not really different than Intel, is it?? I'm not talking performance. Just thermals.

As for the screens, the notebookcheck review will reveal the response times as well. And I can tell you even now, they will not be pretty. Expect 30-40 ms times, or worse. Which is really not good by today's standards.

 

[Sanpete]

Keep in mind that 14.8KHz is almost 15,000Hz, or pulse modulations per second, way above what has been suspected or shown to cause trouble. NotebookCheck has an article about it:

"As laid out in both studies by Retro-PC-Mania and Dial GambH linked above, PWM LED frequencies of 3000Hz or above would eliminate chances of users having issues, as no evidence has been found of effects on humans at these frequencies."

Why Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM) is such a headache

Explanation of PWM, when and why it is bad, and possible solutions

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[Broko Fankone]

I'd say it's high enough for most people, but obviously some are super-sensitive to flickering and thus you get these threads about heads hurting from watching the screens.

 

[vannix]

Guys......... can't believe. I waited 9 years to swap my rMBP, ordered a 4k euros MacBook Pro 16 MAX a week ago.
I thought: no way it could have PWM, a screen like that!

Today (still waiting for my order..) I tried the new 16 at a store, and I quickly noticed eyestrain, I googled notebookcheck (few days ago they didn't have any news) and.. here you have it, PWM.

 

[Sanpete]

I'd say it's high enough for most people, but obviously some are super-sensitive to flickering and thus you get these threads about heads hurting from watching the screens.

The article explains why that's highly unlikely to be the cause, and that there's no evidence for it, so it's not a good idea to treat it as obvious or even likely at that frequency.

 

[ignaciobarrena]

Guys......... can't believe. I waited 9 years to swap my rMBP, ordered a 4k euros MacBook Pro 16 MAX a week ago.
I thought: no way it could have PWM, a screen like that!

Today (still waiting for my order..) I tried the new 16 at a store, and I quickly noticed eyestrain, I googled notebookcheck (few days ago they didn't have any news) and.. here you have it, PWM.

It's better to try the computer at home. The computers are at max brightness (which I rarely use), there a also a lot of light, people, noise... Not the best environment to try and test a computer haha. You have 14 days to try it and see if it really bother your eyes or you have to get used to the new screen (remember, they are brighter, with higher contrast, richer color gamut, promotion).

15kHz is a high flicker rate compared to OLED screens, and according to those articles it shouldn't be a problem for most people. The iPad Pro M1 12,9 screen is basically the same as the one in this MacBooks, and reports about eye strain/headaches beacuse of PWM are much lower than with OLED phones.

Also, I think that we tend to get obsessed with PWM sensitivity. Getting a little bit of eye strain/headaches from using computers, phones or looking at screens is quite standard in this time and age. When I was in college I used to have tired sight during exams season. The eyes "are muscles", and like those you just need to take a break from time to time if you don't want to get injured.

What I'm trying to say, don't panic yet and whenever the computer arrives, use it normally and you'll know if it isn't for you.

 

[rid]

You have 14 days to try it

There might be an issue here if you order a custom version instead of a base, stock model. If it's custom, you might not be able to return it, in which case if the screen doesn't work for you, you're left with a very expensive unusable brick if you can't find anyone to sell your custom configuration to.

It's a good idea to check the return policy of wherever you buy it from.

 

[ignaciobarrena]

There might be an issue here if you order a custom version instead of a base, stock model. If it's custom, you might not be able to return it, in which case if the screen doesn't work for you, you're left with a very expensive unusable brick if you can't find anyone to sell your custom configuration to.

It's a good idea to check the return policy of wherever you buy it from.

That’s not true.

You can return any MacBook within 14 days if you buy them from Apple directly. It doesn’t matter if they are custom ordered or base/stock configurations.

You can’t return engraved devices though. It’s different.

 

[rid]

That’s not true.

You can return any MacBook within 14 days if you buy them from Apple directly. It doesn’t matter if they are custom ordered or base/stock configurations.

You can’t return engraved devices though. It’s different.

That might be so for Apple in the United States, but not every country and every store has the same policy. For example, the Apple reseller in my country does not return custom products, and the law does not force them to either.

 

[ignaciobarrena]

That might be so for Apple in the United States, but not every country and every store has the same policy. For example, the Apple reseller in my country does not return custom products, and the law does not force them to either.

Well, that’s why I said that this applies if you buy from Apple directly.

Apple resellers only take unopened apple products for returns.

 

[rid]

Well, that’s why I said that this applies if you buy from Apple directly.

Apple resellers only take unopened apple products for returns.

Again, depends on the store and country. The same reseller I was talking about does accept stock products, even if you open them and use them, because they're required by law.

In any case, since it's a real investment, it never hurts to check the return policy.

 

[Broko Fankone]

The article explains why that's highly unlikely to be the cause, and that there's no evidence for it, so it's not a good idea to treat it as obvious or even likely at that frequency.

Aha, and did you read the actual pre-review from the exact same website?

Like the Mini-LED screen on the current Ipad Pro, we can once again detect constant PWM flickering at 14.8 kHz at all brightness levels. The frequency is very high, but it might still cause problems when you are sensitive to the flickering. We are still testing the brightness, because our first results showed that the luminance is capped at just 500 nits for SDR content

Looks like that's what they are saying about it, then?

 

[Sanpete]

Aha, and did you read the actual pre-review from the exact same website?

Yes, if you mean their news article about the screen brightness. It appears to be written by someone not familiar with the evidence discussed in the article above. It certainly doesn't say it's obvious PWM is an issue here.

 

[eret9616]

pad pro 2020 12.9 = 58,820hz
ipad pro 2021 12.9 miniled = 19,190hz
macbook pro 16inch 2019 = 131,700hz

macbook pro 14inch 2021 miniled = 14,800hz

 

[Broko Fankone]

Yes, if you mean their news article about the screen brightness. It appears to be written by someone not familiar with the evidence discussed in the article above. It certainly doesn't say it's obvious PWM is an issue here.

Yeah, you must be right, it's definitely not the screen that causes these headaches which people complain from. They are looking at the screen wrong. It's impossible that someone might still be sensitive to this frequency of modulation.

It's like they said about 30fps. It's more than enough! The human eye can't see past 30fps.

Lmao.

 

[Sanpete]

Yeah, you must be right, it's definitely not the screen that causes these headaches which people complain from. They are looking at the screen wrong. It's impossible that someone might still be sensitive to this frequency of modulation.

It's like they said about 30fps. It's more than enough! The human eye can't see past 30fps.

Lmao.

Ha, glad you find yourself funny. Yes, it's highly unlikely given what we know about physics and biology, as well as tests in real life, that flickering at such a high frequency can cause a problem. But as with so many other things, people will believe whatever suits them.

 

[engseng]

Last time I used a Thinkpad T410 laptop that had a PWM frequency of 220Hz. At the end of the day, my eyes became very tired and my head didn't feel so good. Then I installed the IntelPWMControl app that increased the PWM to 700Hz. The screen actually looked better after that.

I am using the 16" MacBook Pro now that has PWM @ 131kHz. Thankfully, the display is agreeable to me. I am reading that the new 16" M1 MacBook Pro is having PWM @ 14kHz so hopefully this display will be agreeable to me too.

Seems to me that there are technological challenges to implementing DC dimming in displays. Especially for mini-LED displays since there are now thousands of LEDs serving as the backlight now.

What is DC Dimming? How to enable on Xiaomi, OnePlus, Realme Phones

OnePlus 7 Pro (Review) has got a new software update that adds a very interesting feature: DC Dimming. This isn’t completely out of the blue because OnePlus CEO Pete Lau had earlier confirmed on Weibo that DC Dimming was coming to OnePlus phones as a test feature in Laboratory. If you are...

www.smartprix.com

 

[esaelias187]

I got the 14 inch and I suffer from pwm I got quite dry eyes however once I disabled promotion it felt fine

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Our brain is slow and we do not perceive this in real time

The visual cortex processes imagery in real time otherwise professional sports relying on speed and reflexes would be impossible to perform.

There's no reason to film a display at 240fps if the display isn't running at 240fps. That's just forging evidence to support a weak hypothesis.

 

[Broko Fankone]

Ha, glad you find yourself funny. Yes, it's highly unlikely given what we know about physics and biology, as well as tests in real life, that flickering at such a high frequency can cause a problem. But as with so many other things, people will believe whatever suits them.

I think you are confusing "unlikely" with "impossible". And from what you've written so far, your argument seems to be that it's impossible for users to be experiencing problems at this frequency of modulation. So is it unlikely, or impossible? Exactly how much do you believe that "unlikely" equals "impossible" is up to you. Personally, I make a massive distinction between the two. And as written already above, my argument is that it is possible for some users to actually experience negative issues from such a low frequency of flickering. And up to 2021 standards, it is actually low. Based on studies done with ambient fluorescent lighting in the 80s, maybe it's high. Today's high quality standards equal flicker-free monitors. Meaning no flicker whatsoever.

 

[rid]

I got the chance to test the new screens and I'm happy to report that I can't see any problem with them.

Both the 14" and the 16" screens look identical, and I don't feel anything at any brightness level with small or large text, white on black or black on white, neither close to the screen nor far away.

So, at least for me, the entire Apple laptop lineup as it is today is still safe to buy.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

I got the chance to test the new screens and I'm happy to report that I can't see any problem with them.

He filmed a variable 60-120hz refresh rate screen at 240fps. It has been known for decades that if you film a monitor or TV your camera should be in sync with the screen. Remember when people first starting using digital cameras to film television screens and they wondered what all those lines were?

 

[ahrian]

Yeah, you must be right, it's definitely not the screen that causes these headaches which people complain from. They are looking at the screen wrong. It's impossible that someone might still be sensitive to this frequency of modulation.

It's like they said about 30fps. It's more than enough! The human eye can't see past 30fps.

Lmao.

"The human eye can't see past 30fps."
LMAO

 

[Broko Fankone]

"The human eye can't see past 30fps."
LMAO

I think you didn't detect the sarcasm in that post