iPad Pro macOS on iPad... how feasible is it?

[Digitalguy]

It wouldn’t necessarily be a iPad Pro enthusiast type of device… it would be those who want to consolidate and have the best of both worlds. And of course, Mac Mini will be in the discussion… given I’ll be able to plug my iPad/Mac into a monitor and get desktop experience.

You bring up iPod to the iPhone.. and look where that went?


Again, I’m not denying the product is a cool idea. But there’s no doubt that it will take some of the Mac sales… let me propose a question to you.

Imagine bringing iPad-specific features to the Mac (touch support, Apple Pencil and cellular support)… you think that would take some sales away from the iPad?

To answer the last question, of course it would, especially the pencil support iMO, that why Apple won't do it...
But was the iPod death a bad thing in the great scheme of things. Not really. Apple is clearly making much more with iPhone. So some forms of cannibalization can make financial sense.
If this device had to replace the entry level Mac Mini, so be it, it would cost $300 more. This would definitely not replace a much lighter MacBook air or a much more powerful MacBook pro 14. It might take some Mac sales but it could still make financial sense given the price, especially if paired with large iPads only, incetivizing their sales.
I don't think the Mac Mini is a consideration for on the go users at this point. You need a powerbank with AC support, use of iPad as a monitor is possible but not seamless and you still need keyboard, trackpad/mouse and stand, not a good solution for on the go at all...

 

[Ludatyk]

It might take some Mac sales but it could still make financial sense given the price, especially if paired with large iPads only, incetivizing their sales.

But Apple cares deeply about losing ANY potential sales... that's my point. Especially from within their product line... it's perfectly understandable when a consumer comes in trying to buy either a Mac or iPad. As long as they are buying one of their products.

But it's an entirely different story when the iPad has the capability to have macOS on it... then the consumer will not consider the Mac at all (even for future purchases). And as more consumers do this... it will gradually eat into the Mac sales.

To answer the last question, of course it would, especially the pencil support iMO, that why Apple won't do it...

And that's what annoys me the most about the whole "add macOS onto the iPad" discussions. Because when the tables are turned... it makes more sense.

 

[Digitalguy]

But Apple cares deeply about losing ANY potential sales... that's my point. Especially from within their product line... it's perfectly understandable when a consumer comes in trying to buy either a Mac or iPad. As long as they are buying one of their products.

But it's an entirely different story when the iPad has the capability to have macOS on it... then the consumer will not consider the Mac at all (even for future purchases). And as more consumers do this... it will gradually eat into the Mac sales.


And that's what annoys me the most about the whole "add macOS onto the iPad" discussions. Because when the tables are turned... it makes more sense.

Your argument applies to Apple allowing the iPad to run MacOS. What I am saying is different, it's buying an additional Mac in order to run MacOS via the iPad (as a screen) on the go. So it's buying 2 devices, not one, and 2 expensive ones. This is strenghtening the ecosystem and the interaction among Apple devices (like Sidecar was) rather than losing sales overall in my opinion.

 

[Ludatyk]

Your argument applies to Apple allowing the iPad to run MacOS. What I am saying is different, it's buying an additional Mac in order to run MacOS via the iPad (as a screen) on the go. So it's buying 2 devices, not one, and 2 expensive ones. This is strenghtening the ecosystem and the interaction among Apple devices (like Sidecar was) rather than losing sales overall in my opinion.

Yeah, but if I'm not mistaken... your proposed iPad/Mac product is a Magic Keyboard-like dock. Albeit the consumer is buying two devices. But in essence, you are running macOS onto an iPad...

 

[subjonas]

I don't think people see things this way. People want a versitile device, they don't want to do all the typing on the Mac and use the tablet only as Jobs intended. This is a solution for enthusiasts not for the average person. Just like the pro iPads (especially the large ones, or even future ultra ones) are more targeted to enthusiasts. I can see a lot of entusiasts preferring this to having a Mac + a naked iPad. Let alone the large number of people that don't even have Macs and use Windows PCs, this could push some of them to Macs.

I think you’re saying the iPad-enthusiast still wants a keyboard for the iPad. Is the Universal Control feature not sufficient? Except iPad would just need some kind of stand. The downside is it would take up more table space, unless you somehow put the iPad over the MacBook display.

But bottom line for me is I just don’t think Apple would make a portable computer without a display. I see too much disadvantage without enough advantage for the wider audience (I don’t think iPad Pro is only for the iPad enthusiast).

 

[darngooddesign]

I think you’re saying the iPad-enthusiast still wants a keyboard for the iPad. Is the Universal Control feature not sufficient? Except iPad would just need some kind of stand. The downside is it would take up more table space, unless you somehow put the iPad over the MacBook display.

But bottom line for me is I just don’t think Apple would make a portable computer without a display. I see too much disadvantage without enough advantage for the wider audience (I don’t think iPad Pro is only for the iPad enthusiast).

The Mac Mini is a portable computer without a display. Plug it in where your display, keyboard, and mouse are.

 

[subjonas]

The Mac Mini is a portable computer without a display. Plug it in where your display, keyboard, and mouse are.

Apple and most people do not consider the Mac Mini a portable computer. If you want to use the word that loosely, then the Mac studio and all computers are technically portable.

 

[darngooddesign]

Apple and most people do not consider the Mac Mini a portable computer.

Those people are stuck in the mindset of portable computers needing to look like laptops or tablets.

If you want to use the word that loosely, then the Mac studio and all computers are technically portable.

Whether a MacPro is as easily portable as a Mac Mini is a different discussion. How does the Mac Mini not meet the requirements of a portable, screenless computer? It doesn’t have a battery, but if you are going between two desks does that matter?

 

[subjonas]

Those people are stuck in the mindset of portable computers needing to look like laptops or tablets.

Whether a MacPro is as easily portable as a Mac Mini is a different discussion. How does the Mac Mini not meet the requirements of a portable, screenless computer? It doesn’t have a battery, but if you are going between two desks does that matter?

You’re interjecting with a different discussion. I wasn’t using the word portable in the subjective, open to interpretation sense. I meant something very specific in the context of our conversation—referring to a computer that Apple designed to be used on the go.

 

[Digitalguy]

I think you’re saying the iPad-enthusiast still wants a keyboard for the iPad. Is the Universal Control feature not sufficient? Except iPad would just need some kind of stand. The downside is it would take up more table space, unless you somehow put the iPad over the MacBook display.

But bottom line for me is I just don’t think Apple would make a portable computer without a display. I see too much disadvantage without enough advantage for the wider audience (I don’t think iPad Pro is only for the iPad enthusiast).

No I am saying that the iPad enthusiast wants more than iPadOS and its apps. Ideally MacOS in dual boot / virtual machine, but Apple is never going to make this because it makes no financial sense for them.
So I had suggested (for years) a solution that makes sense for Apple based on Sidecar, not Universal control.
A desktop Mac that would look something like a headless MacBook, with a battery, that can be used a standalone Mac (like a Mac Mini) or as a dock for iPad, turning it into a MacBook by activating Sidecar automatically when docked.
Headless Macbooks exist and they have the advantage of being able to stay on while moving them between displays and not needing a keyboard and mouse. Apple would need to make a docking mechanism (in both a future, large enough iPad and on this new Mac) with seamless connection. Whether Apple thinks it's a good idea or not is a different story.
I just think it could make financial sense and lead to more sales, not less.

 

[Ludatyk]

A desktop Mac that would look something like a headless MacBook, with a battery, that can be used a standalone Mac (like a Mac Mini) or as a dock for iPad, turning it into a MacBook by activating Sidecar automatically when docked.

As much as I wouldn’t mind seeing macOS onto an iPad… the more and more I think about it, the redundancy.

I think of the time I ran DeX on top of Windows... the experience seemed odd. That’s why I opted to use a monitor for DeX instead… since Windows is an operating system in itself. And I know, DeX isn‘t technically an operating system.. but the way it’s designed as a desktop (mimicking Windows).

Perhaps, that’s why Apple has repeatedly stated how they are two different operating system and don’t care to mix the two.

 

[Digitalguy]

As much as I wouldn’t mind seeing macOS onto an iPad… the more and more I think about it, the redundancy.

I think of the time I ran DeX on top of Windows... the experience seemed odd. That’s why I opted to use a monitor for DeX instead… since Windows is an operating system in itself. And I know, DeX isn‘t technically an operating system.. but the way it’s designed as a desktop (mimicking Windows).

Perhaps, that’s why Apple has repeatedly stated how they are two different operating system and don’t care to mix the two.

Apple has already done it, it's called Sidecar... This would just push the concept forward

 

[Ludatyk]

Apple has already done it, it's called Sidecar... This would just push the concept forward

I completely get that... but Sidecar is a feature that's designed for the iPad to be a monitor. When I plug my Galaxy phone to a Windows PC... it displays an interface entirely different from my phone.

This Magic Keyboard-like dock that can be used for the iPad to display macOS... is a good idea, I'm not arguing how awesome it is. My argument is that... you are running macOS natively onto an iPad and I personally cannot see Apple doing it. I'll love to be wrong though...

 

[Digitalguy]

I completely get that... but Sidecar is a feature that's designed for the iPad to be a monitor. When I plug my Galaxy phone to a Windows PC... it displays an interface entirely different from my phone.

This Magic Keyboard-like dock that can be used for the iPad to display macOS... is a good idea, I'm not arguing how awesome it is. My argument is that... you are running macOS natively onto an iPad and I personally cannot see Apple doing it. I'll love to be wrong though...

I think you misunderstood me, you are not running natively. MacOS is running via the M-series Mac in the dock, not via the SOC in the iPad. The iPad is just running Sidecar. This is very different from Dex.

 

[subjonas]

No I am saying that the iPad enthusiast wants more than iPadOS and its apps. Ideally MacOS in dual boot / virtual machine, but Apple is never going to make this because it makes no financial sense for them.
So I had suggested (for years) a solution that makes sense for Apple based on Sidecar, not Universal control.
A desktop Mac that would look something like a headless MacBook, with a battery, that can be used a standalone Mac (like a Mac Mini) or as a dock for iPad, turning it into a MacBook by activating Sidecar automatically when docked.
Headless Macbooks exist and they have the advantage of being able to stay on while moving them between displays and not needing a keyboard and mouse. Apple would need to make a docking mechanism (in both a future, large enough iPad and on this new Mac) with seamless connection. Whether Apple thinks it's a good idea or not is a different story.
I just think it could make financial sense and lead to more sales, not less.

Yes I did understand all that from what you have said previously in this conversation. My “I think you’re saying” comment was me trying to specifically tie in your last post which was in response to my post about the the Magic Keyboard being redundant if you have a MacBook. If we trace back, we were talking about the main advantage of the headless MacBook, and my argument was that it doesn’t save any significant weight, and you said it does if you count the MK weight, and I said the MK weight doesn’t count because it would be redundant with a MacBook handy—all of which led up to that post you made which I was trying to tie into that specific line of discussion. So I thought you were saying the MK may or may not be redundant to non-enthusiasts, but [iPad] enthusiasts always want a keyboard for their iPad handy (because they want an iPad-centric UX) so the MK is necessary for them even if they theoretically had a MacBook handy. That led to me asking why Universal Control wouldn't be the solution to that—because (unlike Sidecar) UC doesn't need any setup, it just immediately works. But presumably that wouldn’t be satisfactory because it takes up more table space.
So did I not interpret that post correctly? I’m pretty sure you don’t agree that the MK is redundant with a MacBook handy though, right?

A question I just thought of—you said the headless MacBook would automatically start Sidecar when the iPad is docked. What if you just want to dock so you can type on the iPad? Is it better for Sidecar to automatically start and you have to manually stop it to type on the iPad? Or is it better for docking to first just work as a normal keyboard for the iPad and you have to initiate Sidecar manually?

 

[Digitalguy]

Yes I did understand all that from what you have said previously in this conversation. My “I think you’re saying” comment was me trying to specifically tie in your last post which was in response to my post about the the Magic Keyboard being redundant if you have a MacBook. If we trace back, we were talking about the main advantage of the headless MacBook, and my argument was that it doesn’t save any significant weight, and you said it does if you count the MK weight, and I said the MK weight doesn’t count because it would be redundant with a MacBook handy—all of which led up to that post you made which I was trying to tie into that specific line of discussion. So I thought you were saying the MK may or may not be redundant to non-enthusiasts, but [iPad] enthusiasts always want a keyboard for their iPad handy (because they want an iPad-centric UX) so the MK is necessary for them even if they theoretically had a MacBook handy. That led to me asking why Universal Control wouldn't be the solution to that—because (unlike Sidecar) UC doesn't need any setup, it just immediately works. But presumably that wouldn’t be satisfactory because it takes up more table space.
So did I not interpret that post correctly? I’m pretty sure you don’t agree that the MK is redundant with a MacBook handy though, right?

A question I just thought of—you said the headless MacBook would automatically start Sidecar when the iPad is docked. What if you just want to dock so you can type on the iPad? Is it better for Sidecar to automatically start and you have to manually stop it to type on the iPad? Or is it better for docking to first just work as a normal keyboard for the iPad and you have to initiate Sidecar manually?

If you use Sidecar, you know it's an app (almost) like any other, just a trackpad gesture and you are back to your iPad, in that case the dock could serve ad a Magic Keyobard. The difference with other apps is that Sidecar has no icon to start it from the iPad, as it's started from the Mac. That's what the dock would do, trigger Sidecar. Moving to iPad is just a gesture away. And I guess it's more than easy enough, there is no manully stopping it, it would stay in the background.
As for space on the table, the idea is that you can use this on the go, on your lap, on a train, plane etc. So having 2 devices at the same time there with either Sidecar or Universal control (vs this solution) is not really an option, even without considering the 1kg less in weight...

 

[Joe Dohn]

Didn't think about this angle. iPads can run iPhone apps, but the iPhone cannot run iPad apps.

That's bull. A jailbroken iPhone can run full-blown WINDOWS 7.
Here is it running on iPhone XR, which is ancient by today's standards:

Yes, it'll be slow, but it's mostly because Apple doesn't allow for hypervisor access on the iPhone and the iPad.

The reason is mostly economical: if you COULD run full-blown MacOS on your iPhone, would you feel as tempted to buy a Macbook? Maybe for running games, but Macs aren't known for running games well anyway.

 

[Joe Dohn]

So, regarding my vote: I chose "other" because running macOS on the iPad won't be feasible IN THE FUTURE.
IT WAS ALREADY FEASIBLE IN 2018, from a technological point of view. The only thing preventing the iPad or even the iPhone from running a full-blown desktop OS at this point are economic reasons.

But will Apple be able to resist the pressure as devices get smaller and smaller?
I mean, just look at GPD Mini. Can you tell me with a straight face you WON'T be able to use Office, Photoshop and browse the Internet with full-blown Windows with this thing?

And that's not even your only option. There are MANY good options nowadays which are full-blown PCs in the size of a small cellphone, tablet or console form factor. There's the Asus ROG ally (console form factor), Legion Go, even the Steam Deck itself.

Apple has A LOT to lose if they don't offer a very compact device that runs MacOS REAL soon...

 

[Digitalguy]

So, regarding my vote: I chose "other" because running macOS on the iPad won't be feasible IN THE FUTURE.
IT WAS ALREADY FEASIBLE IN 2018, from a technological point of view. The only thing preventing the iPad or even the iPhone from running a full-blown desktop OS at this point are economic reasons.

But will Apple be able to resist the pressure as devices get smaller and smaller?
I mean, just look at GPD Mini. Can you tell me with a straight face you WON'T be able to use Office, Photoshop and browse the Internet with full-blown Windows with this thing?

And that's not even your only option. There are MANY good options nowadays which are full-blown PCs in the size of a small cellphone, tablet or console form factor. There's the Asus ROG ally (console form factor), Legion Go, even the Steam Deck itself.

Apple has A LOT to lose if they don't offer a very compact device that runs MacOS REAL soon...

Nobody is questioning the technical feasibility of an iPad running MacOS with a Magic Keyboard.
What I question is the fact that Apple feels pressured by things like UMPCs or Windows 2-in-1s to make it possible...
Apple knows that their customors tend to prefer MacOS to Windows and thanks to Apple Silicon they have the advantage of battery life and quiet operation, at least for now. So they can keep on maximizing profits by selling MacBooks and iPads to the same customers instead of an iPad running MacOS...
I don't know how much the new Nuvia chips will change things but at best it will take years.
What could maybe push Apple to even consider this is if Samsung replaces Dex in their ultra tablet with full Windows thanks to these new chips. But even Samsung has not much incentive to do that, since they also sell laptops.... So unlikely...

 

[Joe Dohn]

Apple knows that their customors tend to prefer MacOS to Windows and thanks to Apple Silicon they have the advantage of battery life and quiet operation, at least for now.

Those are the key words: FOR NOW.

Apple's advantage is running thin. I have an ASUS ROG Ally here that runs dead cold and quiet at 15W – so much so I can't hear a single noise. It's almost as if it were turned off.

I can only hear something that bothers me at 25W, but I only use that mode SOMETIMES when gaming, and that's masked by the sound.

Now, the ROG Ally is not too energy efficient, but if you are doing office tasks and cut the bells & whistles, it can have up to 5 hours battery life. It's not as good as a Macbook, but we're talking about something that's MORE powerful than a Core i9 9th generation, and has all the versatility a PC has.

If AMD keeps heading at this direction, I really don't see how they WOULDN'T be able to reach 8+ hours batery life on a thin device real soon. It might already be possible if you're willing to use a slightly thicker device and/or use it for productivity only.

In my particular scenario, I'm surely happy to sacrifice a few hours of battery life for this versatility, but I'm sure I'd be able to get a few extra hours with a small battery bank should the need arise.

 

[Digitalguy]

Those are the key words: FOR NOW.

Apple's advantage is running thin. I have an ASUS ROG Ally here that runs dead cold and quiet at 15W – so much so I can't hear a single noise. It's almost as if it were turned off.

I can only hear something that bothers me at 25W, but I only use that mode SOMETIMES when gaming, and that's masked by the sound.

Now, the ROG Ally is not too energy efficient, but if you are doing office tasks and cut the bells & whistles, it can have up to 5 hours battery life. It's not as good as a Macbook, but we're talking about something that's MORE powerful than a Core i9 9th generation, and has all the versatility a PC has.

If AMD keeps heading at this direction, I really don't see how they WOULDN'T be able to reach 8+ hours batery life on a thin device real soon. It might already be possible if you're willing to use a slightly thicker device and/or use it for productivity only.

In my particular scenario, I'm surely happy to sacrifice a few hours of battery life for this versatility, but I'm sure I'd be able to get a few extra hours with a small battery bank should the need arise.

I think that is a very different device from an hypotethical iPad with MacOS. As a productivity device, it still needs a separate keyboard and mouse and the monitor is way too small. This basically works as desktop at home (not much different from a Mac Mini) and as console on the go. But this is no laptop / tablet on the go. And the GPD Win Mini is not much different, as the keyboard is barely usable. So I don't think these devices are comparable or target a similar market. These are more for desktop gaming on the go, I don't know if Apple is interested in that, but that's a different story and before they evec consider this in relation to the iPad they should push much more MacOS as a gaming platform.

 

[Joe Dohn]

I think that is a very different device from an hypotethical iPad with MacOS. As a productivity device, it still needs a separate keyboard and mouse and the monitor is way too small. This basically works as desktop at home (not much different from a Mac Mini) and as console on the go. But this is no laptop / tablet on the go. And the GPD Win Mini is not much different, as the keyboard is barely usable. So I don't think these devices are comparable or target a similar market. These are more for desktop gaming on the go, I don't know if Apple is interested in that, but that's a different story and before they evec consider this in relation to the iPad they should push much more MacOS as a gaming platform.

The ROG Ally triggers the virtual keyboard if you need to. IMHO it's very uncomfortable, but definitely usable if you need it. And of course, there are ways around Windows' awkwardness, from activating the touch interface to using a special one (e.g, Armory Crate or Steam Deck).

To be honest, however, I do work typing, and I wouldn't see myself relying even on the iPadOS virtual keyboard for productivity. It's simply NOT comfortable. If you spend long hours on a mobile device, you'll be better off with a separate keyboard anyway.

 

[Digitalguy]

The ROG Ally triggers the virtual keyboard if you need to. IMHO it's very uncomfortable, but definitely usable if you need it. And of course, there are ways around Windows' awkwardness, from activating the touch interface to using a special one (e.g, Armory Crate or Steam Deck).

To be honest, however, I do work typing, and I wouldn't see myself relying even on the iPadOS virtual keyboard for productivity. It's simply NOT comfortable. If you spend long hours on a mobile device, you'll be better off with a separate keyboard anyway.

I hate screen keyboards, on any device. And even those who don't, I don't see them doing long typing sessions on a screen keyboard (I know young people type a ton on smartphones, but I am talking productivity and work).
So, to be clear, when I say iPad, I mean iPad + Magic keyboard (not even an external bluetooth keyboard). Which is something that allows you to type on your lap, on a tray tablet (plane, train etc.).
Using an external bluetooth keyboard (like you would on the ROG Ally) is NOT the same thing, all all. And even if you used the cluncky solution of propping up the Ally with some case with kickstand (which is not lappable by the way), the screen would still be unconfortably small for serious work. 7" is too small to use Windows without having to squint. I realized that when I bought a GDP pocket years ago, the idea sounds great, but in practice you quickly have a headache.
For me the smallest for Windows without it being unconfortable is 10.5 with a 3.2 display (my surface go 2). And I am sure some people will say it's too small.
Even my Surface pro 2 (10.6" at 16.9) can get tyring relatively quickly, since you have less space because of the aspect ratio.
Of course if I had no choice I could use a 7" device (but even my GDP pocket would be better than the Ally for that), but for a long working session it's a nightmare...

 

[Joe Dohn]

I hate screen keyboards, on any device. And even those who don't, I don't see them doing long typing sessions on a screen keyboard (I know young people type a ton on smartphones, but I am talking productivity and work).
So, to be clear, when I say iPad, I mean iPad + Magic keyboard (not even an external bluetooth keyboard). Which is something that allows you to type on your lap, on a tray tablet (plane, train etc.).
Using an external bluetooth keyboard (like you would on the ROG Ally) is NOT the same thing, all all. And even if you used the cluncky solution of propping up the Ally with some case with kickstand (which is not lappable by the way), the screen would still be unconfortably small for serious work. 7" is too small to use Windows without having to squint.

You realize that the Magic Keyboard IS an external Bluetooth keyboard, right?

Here, have a look: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2...d, Magic Keyboard with,you turn on the device.

Magic Keyboard, Magic Keyboard with Touch ID, Magic Mouse, and Magic Trackpad work wirelessly via Bluetooth when turned on and paired with your Mac.

If the device came in the box of your new Mac, it should already be paired with that Mac, and it automatically connects when you turn on the device. It's turned on when you see green under its power switch.

So, even if it's not the perfect experience, you can still hook it to a larger screen while bringing it with you and loading an interface that is better adapted to its small screen for e.g, gaming. Seems great to me.

 

[XboxEvolved]

Its technically possible just bot going to happen