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MacRumors Giveaways... Why are they only open to U.S. residents?
- Thread starter Fabian90
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So if the cost is so insignificant would you be willing to foot the bill on their behalf? I believe the quote from MR was that the legal bill just for Canada was significant enough.
Seems reasonable and straight forward enough.
Your site that willingly hosts illegal international giveaways is what/where? I find it interesting that you would have so little regard for the legal and financial future of yourself, your family and/or employees if you have any so that you can give everyone on the planet the chance to win something that probably costs less than the shipping cost to send it around the planet.
Again, why waste your time challenging a persons or entities desire to FOLLOW THE LAW? Why would they risk anything so that someone can win a $25 USBC hub in a country with f'd up laws? Doesn't make any sense.
Can you both please detail for the group your sources of expertise in international shipping and giveaway laws or are you both common keyboard warriors/professional complainers?
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I don't have such a site, because I don't profess to run a Mac community site which 'loves its international users'. Although I have actually done an international give-away of a T-shirt on a community site I used to run. What were the repercussions of that? Zilch.
I'm a lawyer but I have not read every international law on giveaways, so I don't have a 'source'.
My point is not that there are legal concerns, my point is that legal concerns have to be balanced with the commercial reality. There are plenty of weird laws which are never enforced but which are technically on the books. This is the concept of the boogeyman. The law has a filtration process. What's technically in a statute as being illegal, then you have what's something the relevant authority is actually going to care about or have the capacity to deal with, and then you have the likelihood that someone actually makes a complaint to said authority. These steps are very far removed from each other, the odds are very low. That's something which Android Authority et al have obviously realised. And ultimately - there's the liability. What are you liable for? It costs nothing to enter a giveaway. You haven't taken any money from anyone - there's nothing to repay. If you did this, somehow, contrary to UK law, the worst you'd get is a slap on the wrist from the ASA. And remember, that's after all the other steps - technically illegal, bothersome enough to deal with, and for someone to actually complain.
From the power of deduction, we know that Android Authority and hundreds of YouTubers obviously have not concerned themselves with the legalities, because there is no way that they have drafted the necessary legal documents for all the countries in the world. That means that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals (who have unlimited personal liability) as well as companies (who have limited liability) running international giveaways and not breaking a sweat.
A good point was raised in that Verizon-owned news sites like Engadget don't do international giveaways. That is because their legal departments can't be bothered with anything, so they have a blanket ban. It's what you have to do when you're a large corporate entity - you have to apply macro rules to micro situations. MacRumors isn't a big company - that's been admitted in this thread as well. They therefore have the freedom to be agile.
Ultimately, you're right - we can't be choosy beggars. Free is free, and if you're not getting that free thing, you ultimately don't lose out. But when MacRumors claims to like their international users, I'm suggesting that's nonsense. At least admit that you don't care.
My point, ultimately, is the legal boogeyman that MacRumors seems to be afraid of. You are already so well protected - being an LLC in the US (where you _are_ following the laws on giveaways properly) and the risk of something happening is so remote, and also the likely ramification is so small - this is like a kid being afraid it will get eaten by a fly.
I'm not speaking for the site owner or the editors, just to be clear.
But I have been following this thread for a long time, and I have an opinion. The owner has chosen not to tempt fate and to stay within the letter of the law. That's his perogative, and in my opinion is deservering of respect. No one has to agree with him, but everyone should be able to see that he has the right to make that choice.
The point of MacRumors is not to give away free stuff. And giving away free stuff is not a measure of how the site values its users from outside the US. The point of this site is rumors, news, and forum discussions among users.
If users from outside the US are looking for free stuff and feel that being allowed to compete for free stuff is necessary for being a member of said site, then this site is obviously not a good match. We never like to lose members, but sometimes that's just the way the chips fall.
I understand the frustration (I am American but live abroad, and as such am not eligible). But the powers that be have made a choice that they have the right to make, and have explained that choice muliple times in this thread.
But I have been following this thread for a long time, and I have an opinion. The owner has chosen not to tempt fate and to stay within the letter of the law. That's his perogative, and in my opinion is deservering of respect. No one has to agree with him, but everyone should be able to see that he has the right to make that choice.
The point of MacRumors is not to give away free stuff. And giving away free stuff is not a measure of how the site values its users from outside the US. The point of this site is rumors, news, and forum discussions among users.
If users from outside the US are looking for free stuff and feel that being allowed to compete for free stuff is necessary for being a member of said site, then this site is obviously not a good match. We never like to lose members, but sometimes that's just the way the chips fall.
I understand the frustration (I am American but live abroad, and as such am not eligible). But the powers that be have made a choice that they have the right to make, and have explained that choice muliple times in this thread.
When did I say that? I sincerely wish that something as simple as a free product giveaway wasn't so mired in international laws but that isn't reality. I would never ask anyone to break laws, regardless of how small the chances of getting caught for my benefit or for a stupid giveaway.
Again, I won't ever fault someone for adhering to the law, nor would I ask them to break the law for my benefit, to do so is simply selfish.
Even if the law wasn't a concern, shipping costs and import fees/taxes are 100% real. Imagine the following:
Increased shipping costs, plus insurance, plus any import/gift taxes which would be paid by the winner of the giveaway, ends up being more than the cost of the item or a significant % and now the winner doesn't want it, or can't afford it, what happens then? It is not fantasy to imagine that someone from MR needs to calculate all of these things as they apply to each individual item and each individual country. This can only happen after notifying the winner as only then will they receive a shipping address. Now the winner doesn't want the item and someone at MR needs to go through the entire process again with the next person.
Take the current $400 bag giveaway, someone from the exact furthest point from the USA shipping location wins the bag and now has to pay $X in shipping/insurance charges and their home country also charges a X% import tax.... imagine that they cannot afford that amount, or don't want to pay it, they entered a giveaway they believed would be for a free item. Please don't suggest that the manufacturers or MR should eat those costs or the giveaways will simply end.
Some things are just too costly or logistically difficult to deal with, regardless of how much you appreciate your users from other countries.
As a lawyer would you ever advise your client to break/ignore laws?
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You didn't say that, I was addressing the site admins.
The problem here is that you're assuming that an international giveaway is de facto illegal. When in reality MacRumors have admitted that it is just that the effort of working it all out is too great. There's a difference.
The rest of your post is irrelevant because it discusses shipping and import taxes, which MacRumors have said is not the point.
Again, there's a difference between knowing something is illegal, and knowing that there is a grey area. Lawyers have to be commercial - if we mandated to our clients that we couldn't work for them unless they followed the exact letter of the law (and had to find out what that letter was for every single country they do business in, for all areas of their business), businesses wouldn't function properly.
The very fact that Android Authority, MKBHD, and countless others have not gotten intro trouble to date is evidence of the fact that this is a grey / highly unregulated area. Enter the 'legal boogeyman'. It might cause problems, but the chances and the stake are very low, as I set out in my earlier post.
So your legal advice, if asked, to MR on this topic would be "android authority hasn't been caught so have a blast"?
Then when they do get caught you swoop in with a thousand billable hours to get a settlement, is that about right?
Then when they do get caught you swoop in with a thousand billable hours to get a settlement, is that about right?
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The reality is that there are onerous regulations all around the world. For instance, in Quebec you're required to provide a copy of the rules in French. Many other rules are enumerated there. And the penalties for violating the rules are up to $10,000,000. And that's just one country -- one Province of one country.
The reality is that one PO'd member of MR in the world could file a complaint with their local government.
No. It's a distinction without a difference.
It's evidence those organizations are flying without a net. Did they include the PQ in their contests? Did they provide a copy of their rules in French? If not, those individuals/organizations are acting in a stupid fashion.
$10,000,000 (even $C) is hardly "very low". All it takes is one Québécois PO'd member who complains to his local government.
Why you label this a "boogeyman" is rather bizarre. It's not some imaginary threat.
If you want to host a giveaway, feel free to be as inclusive as you like. Bonne chance!
What you’ve done is provided a specific example of a law in a specific country.
‘if’ a member filed a complaint and ‘if’ the authorities were concerned over a small free giveaway on a website and ‘if’ there was enough evidence and ‘if’ they had jurisdiction and ‘if’ the judge decided to impose the maximum fine over, again, a small free giveaway. That’s a lot of ‘if’ and not a lot of certainty. That’s the boogeyman.
Now, the commercial reality. How many businesses are fined at all for breaches of the rule? What’s the % charge rate? How many of those companies are outside Canadian jurisdiction? How many of those are fined anywhere near the full amount written in statute?
In the UK, possession of cannabis is carries a maximum sentence of 5 years in prison. And yet, some police forces have a policy of not even searching for cannabis. Some have policies of disposal of the cannabis. Some give written warnings. Some make people go on educational courses. Do you know what never happens? They never get arrested, charged, and thrown in jail for 5 years. No matter what the statute says.
Your post starts with a very large fine. But it falls away to my argument about the commercial reality of the situation. Which is my point.
Exactly. That's all that's required: one example in one country showing that an international contest is illegal. This Android Authority international contest doesn't include rules in French; it is de facto illegal. This contradicts what you said earlier:
The actual problem is that you were assuming that the international giveaways you mentioned were legal. It's trivial to show they are not.
If you thing there's some commercial reality that no country anywhere enforces its contest laws, then prove it. Give us an evidence-based argument that MacRumors would be safe to not even bother to research the contest laws around the world. You already made one error: you assumed that international contests are de facto legal.
I didn’t say they were de facto legal, I said they were not de facto illegal. The earlier posts in this recent chain were very quick to assume that, just because the research into giveaway laws in every country had not been carried out, meant that doing a giveaway in any of those countries was automatically illegal. That’s not the case. You’ve identified one country in which there would have to be some changes to their process. The others are still unknown, grey areas. And that’s where the commercial reality kicks in.
Okay, the evidence: no YouTuber nor Android Authority have been fined thousands of Canadian dollars for not having the rules in French. You... pretty much said it yourself.
Let’s be clear: contest rules do get enforced. Some times. For some things. I’m sure that, if you carry out a paid raffle on national television and there are discrepancies in the winner selection process, there will be an investigation and, if rules were broken, likely a fine.
But that’s plainly not what’s going on here. The contest is free. It’s for a very low value item. It’s on a website which most of the public don’t know exist. The issues identified so far stem from technicalities (language of rules), not issues which run to the core of the giveaway (integrity of the selection process). Also, in my example, it’s a national broadcaster breaking the rules of their own country. This is a US-based site. Going after them outside jurisdiction is often more trouble than it’s worth. Another layer of ‘maybe’, another weakening of the boogeyman.
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As a lawyer, I can't advise MR or give a legal opinion because that would be inappropriate. However for your insight...
1. I regularly advise clients on engaging with risks (that's my job!) It's not as if 'the law' is just a single list of rules to follow and very often a good piece of legal advice is along the lines of 'who is gonna sue you and what's the most they'd get outta it? Worst case scenario you get a little tap on the shoulder but I doubt the recipient of the benefit is gonna complain that you broke a small letter of the law while helping them out... it's not in their best interests to do so...'
2. What I can do is question why MR can't do international give-aways when other sites can. And also, what benefit their canned disclaimer provides.
3. Finally, I can't advise but I can recommend that MR seek a second opinion if they've indeed been told that running a giveaway would require separate, costly contracts for EVERY country out there. MR has various contracts on its website and one could argue that the law of contracts is different in every jurisdiction. Does this mean they should implement a geo-block so that the site's only accessible in the USA? Back to my first point, good law is actually quite practical/commonsense... who in their right mind is gonna sue them over a forum rego contract being invalid in their jurisdiction (hint - don't sign-up if you don't agree with the rules), what would be the quantum of their damages (probably not a lot, if anything) and would the US government deport Arnold Kim to the said country to be subjected to such a farcical dispute?
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Bingo!!!
The legal boogeyman always frustrates me because it's a lazy assumption that you can't do something simple due to 'international law' coming to get you.
@macrumors.com
I guess USA laws are too complicated to organise international giveaways (even for software), while most other countries can.
Forget about it, just let us all non-US registered users have the option to hide these geo-blocked giveaways from the main page, since we can not even apply.
I guess USA laws are too complicated to organise international giveaways (even for software), while most other countries can.
Forget about it, just let us all non-US registered users have the option to hide these geo-blocked giveaways from the main page, since we can not even apply.
The best advice I can provide is just scroll on by when you see it. I'm not trying to be coy, but rather if you don't like something or it doesn't pertain to you, then ignore it.
Yes, and the site owner seemed to make it clear that he considered the risks and chose to avoid such things.
I don't understand people being so upset about not being able to win an item in a contest that doesn't cost them anything? Not eligible, move along. It seems like people are always looking for something to be mad about.
Full disclaimer: I have been a MacRumors member for over 8 years and am in the U.S. and have never entered in any of these MacRumor giveaways.
Full disclaimer: I have been a MacRumors member for over 8 years and am in the U.S. and have never entered in any of these MacRumor giveaways.
Same here, and I've been to sites where I was excluded for one reason or another, I just shrugged my shoulders and moved on. The amount of time, energy and frustration over some silly little contests seems absurd to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't understand people who get this mad about a person/entity choosing not to temp fate by ignoring international law. It is not that MR CANNOT do an international giveaway, it is they CHOOSE not to because they CHOOSE to abide by international laws, known and unknown. You may argue that point but ultimately I cannot argue erring on the side of caution. If other sites/entities feel secure ignoring international law and roll the dice that they don't get caught, good for them but I wouldn't expect everyone to follow suit.
Some here, claiming to be lawyers, have expressed the opinion that the chance of getting caught is small so just ignore it and deal with the consequences should they arise. I get that part of legal counsels job is to advise on risk/reward but it strikes me as conflict when they take such a cavalier approach to the risks knowing full well that if something goes wrong that they get to swoop in with billable hours to fix the problem and say "well I told you the chance was small, guess you lost the lottery". Several other, much larger, entities have been listed in this thread as also doing only US residents giveaways and they certainly have much deeper legal pockets, obviously they are on to something.
It is also interesting the number of keyboard warrior/professional complainers who only seem to value the occasional giveaway by MR and not the overwhelming reporting content and forum content. Giveaways are 1 weekly post, if that, they act like it overpowers the main page every single day. If you need giveaway posts to be geoblocked in order to not be triggered when you visit MR then indeed maybe it is time to find another site.
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There is no comparison between these contests and someone possessing cannabis. The person possessing cannabis is taking the risk for their own reward. With these contests, MacRumors is taking the risk for someone else's reward. I wouldn't do it either. Not worth the hassle.
THIS!
Unless you have really deep legal budget pockets and running international contests is your main focus then simply ignoring international law is playing Russian roulette. Doing all the research for 196 countries is expensive so I can understand when a site like MR does basic due diligence and decides where they will draw the line.
That does not mean it is not annoying. There is no need for the keyboard wearrior/professional apologists to make excuses. I don't see how hiding giveaways from readers who do not apply makes the site worse, it is rather the opposite.
Yeah, but it seems kind of extreme to have to go out of the way to hide something just because some people are offended. We seem to forget that its easy to avoid the annoyance without having the site owner making customizations to appease a small group of people - that is, just scroll on by. See a contest at MR, why purposely enter the thread and get aggravated. Its like seeing dog crap on the ground and purposely stepping in it and getting mad
There's been so many excuses for and against in this thread, but for me, the bottom line is that the leadership decided its not worth it. Case closed.
Again my point is taking some personal ownership of things that annoy you and just avoid
1. I am not mad, I'm discussing ways to better MR.
2. It's not a matter of 'there is an international law and they are obeying it to the letter'. As discussed, the concern is that the fear of a fictitious legal boogie man is leading to a blanket ban.
This applies more to you TBH. A select group of people wish to discuss this topic because we enjoy the content.
If you don't and the content irritates you (or makes you think people are getting worked up over nothing when they are actually enjoying the discussion), then maybe you should ignore the thread?
You may notice I'm not participating in a lot of other threads. This is one special interest topic that I've committed to while ignoring most of the others.
IMO it's not that difficult to understand that we all have our niche areas of interest. This is one of mine and I'm enjoying this discussion. If you're not then I'm not the problem... participation is voluntary.
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