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May Return Apple TV / May Not ( New PICS - TV Screen Shots )
- Thread starter harcosparky
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Well initially I was looking for answers, how can I warn someone of an issue without knowing what that issue is.
I would look really stupid by starting the post " Hey all I wanna possibly warn you of what might be a problem with the ATV on 4:3 TV's " and then find out I had a wiring issue.
Read on and you will see how we also saw this issue with downloaded content being played on the iMac ......
Keep this in mind. We first noticed this with downloaded content from ITMS playing on our TV set via the Apple TV.
Not knowing where the issue was, we then looked at the downloaded content on out brand new 24" Aluminum iMac. You'd have to agree, downloaded content from ITMS should play well on the iMac, but it did not. ( At this point I was trying to pinpoint exactly where the cropping was being done )
This show we have watched over Cable so we are aware of how the Credits are played and their position on the screen.
On the 24" iMac we also noticed a portion of the bottom of the image was cropped as well, and once could safely assume if it was cropped on the bottom the top was as well.
How did we see it on the iMac?
We replayed the show in the " Actual Size View " and stretched the iTunes window to insure we were not cropping it.
On the bottom portion of the screen on one show they have Credits.
When the Credit played on the iMac we saw the word " PRODUCER ", under the word " PRODUCER " we saw the top half of the producers Name. We looked here because when played on the TV via the ATV all we saw was the word " PRODUCER " and no part of the producers name.
Now this content was a standard TV program, in 4:3 format.
The TV Show we first saw this on is called " Clean House " it was an episode called " The Olson Family " and the credits are displayed at 0:49, 49 seconds into the video.
Now there us " no way in he!! " the iMac is gonna go anywhere, and most likely the ATV will stay as well. At least I have a better idea of where some of the issue resides, but that cropping of downloaded material on the iMac has me curious.
I think that quote from Apple's web site is supposed to be parsed as:
Widescreen (16 x 9) [enhanced-definition or high-definition] television
not
[Widescreen (16 x 9) enhanced-definition] or [high-definition] television
In other words, what I believe this means is "widescreen ED or widescreen HD" television, not "widescreen ED or (any aspect ratio) HD television". Many other Apple publications are consistent with the position that they only intended the
TV to be used with widescreen TV's, regardless of resolution. Don't ask my why they did this though. Would it have been that hard to make it work with SD aspect ratio? Doesn't seem like it to me.I think that quote from Apple's web site is supposed to be parsed as:
• Widescreen (16 x 9) [enhanced-definition or high-definition] television
not
• [Widescreen (16 x 9) enhanced-definition] or [high-definition] television
In other words, what I believe this means is "widescreen ED or widescreen HD" television, not "widescreen ED or (any aspect ratio) HD television". Many other Apple publications are consistent with the position that they only intended the
OK, I'll agree with that ... but the fact remains that on playback via iTunes on the iMac we still saw the cropping ....
See pic below.... ( when played on TV via Apple TV the Producer name is completely gone )
Attachments
Though we saw this on our TV as well, we did not check it on the computer.
I will download that show/episode you referenced to compare notes.
We love the Apple TV here, but realize there can be minor issues with older TV sets. Personally I think it would have been easy for Apple to add some capability for 'backwards compatibility " with HD TV sets in SD format.
I will download that show/episode you referenced to compare notes.
We love the Apple TV here, but realize there can be minor issues with older TV sets. Personally I think it would have been easy for Apple to add some capability for 'backwards compatibility " with HD TV sets in SD format.
It's not as simple as your tv having different video settings is it? My last few sony's have had a button that allow you to change the video from standard/zoomed standard/widescreen/zoomed widescreen so that you can alter the video to fit the whole screen? Cropping can happen depending on the setting you use as the tv tries to stretch the video.
I've had absolutely no problems with my apple tv on all 3 of my widescreen sony tvs (tube and lcd). Only time I had was when I was playing with handbrake settings to see what the effect was.
I've had absolutely no problems with my apple tv on all 3 of my widescreen sony tvs (tube and lcd). Only time I had was when I was playing with handbrake settings to see what the effect was.
If only it were that simple. I also ripped one DV in different formats under Handbrake ... results are the same.
I do believe that for the TV end, it is Sony " auto-sensing" and trying to compensate, however the pic I posted above also shows the cropping while playing the same episode on the 24" iMac, though the crop is not as severe.
I love the Apple TV, especially the 'portability' of it and my traveling a lot. It's like I can pack up an entire collection of DVD movies and the player and almost carry it in my pocket!
( this alone may make it worthwhile )Not wanting to further cloud the issue, I have previously posted that the TV does, indeed, crop graphical images in the Photos mode.
32 pixels at the top of the image.
32 pixels at the bottom of the image.
A simple test:
Look at any photo in iPhoto. Select one where the top and bottom of an image is easily identifiable. I selected a closeup of someone's face, where the forehead was near the top of the image.
Look at that same photo onTV. You will see that the top and bottom of the image has been cropped. In addition, when the photos "roll by" in the photo menu, you will see them in their entirety. But when you view an album, those very same photos are cropped.
I spent considerable time and effort with photoshop determining where the problem was. It was clear thatTV was "reserving" some buffer of pixels from the top and bottom of the image whether or not the Ken Burns effect was on or off.
I did my tests on my Samsung 57" DLP HDTV. I tested all possible outputs from theTV as well as all settings on the TV. Interestingly enough, no movies have been cropped, top or bottom. I was accused (in another forum) of having a TV with bad overscan problems. If that were the case, my movie images would be cropped, too.
TV does, indeed, crop graphical images in the Photos mode.32 pixels at the top of the image.
32 pixels at the bottom of the image.
A simple test:
Look at any photo in iPhoto. Select one where the top and bottom of an image is easily identifiable. I selected a closeup of someone's face, where the forehead was near the top of the image.
Look at that same photo on
TV. You will see that the top and bottom of the image has been cropped. In addition, when the photos "roll by" in the photo menu, you will see them in their entirety. But when you view an album, those very same photos are cropped.I spent considerable time and effort with photoshop determining where the problem was. It was clear that
TV was "reserving" some buffer of pixels from the top and bottom of the image whether or not the Ken Burns effect was on or off.I did my tests on my Samsung 57" DLP HDTV. I tested all possible outputs from the
TV as well as all settings on the TV. Interestingly enough, no movies have been cropped, top or bottom. I was accused (in another forum) of having a TV with bad overscan problems. If that were the case, my movie images would be cropped, too.Not wanting to further cloud the issue, I have previously posted that the
32 pixels at the top of the image.
32 pixels at the bottom of the image.
A simple test:
Look at any photo in iPhoto. Select one where the top and bottom of an image is easily identifiable. I selected a closeup of someone's face, where the forehead was near the top of the image.
Look at that same photo on
I spent considerable time and effort with photoshop determining where the problem was. It was clear that
I did my tests on my Samsung 57" DLP HDTV. I tested all possible outputs from the
Well what you are saying, if anything is clearing part of it up for me.
I noticed the crop on my iMac, and going through the ATV the crop was more severe.
I have a question for you ..... on you hookup.
Are you going from HDMI ---> HDMI
-OR-
Are you going from HDMI ---> DVI
I was just informed that this may well be related to using DVI as opposed to HDMI.
I am by no means an expert on the iMac but was told the video in the iMac internally uses DVI as well.
This leads me to believe ( and as soon as I can, I will test this ) that if I hook up the ATV to a set using HDMI -->HDMI that crop will disappear.
My Apple TV is connected to my HDTV via HDMI. The pictures look correct and uncropped on my iMac.
No connection or output I tested reduced the cropping.
This is obviously a decision the software engineers made, or a hardware limitation of the graphics card.
If it bothers you, you should return the unit. This will (most likely) never be fixed. I reported the bug to Apple and, if it's not fixed in Take 2, it seems likely it won't be fixed for awhile.
Take 2 looks a lot like Apple's attempt to create a viable product (mass-market as opposed to home hobbyist) out of the
TV, and if it doesn't happen, I could reasonably expect Apple orphaning this product.For me, it doesn't matter if the product is orphaned since I'm one of those home hobbyists (geeks) who is satisfied with version 1.1, and am torn about updating at all. The box does just what I wanted it to do, just what I bought it for, and though there are some inconveniences/oversights/ease of use problems, I do not regret my purchase at all.
My Apple TV is connected to my HDTV via HDMI. The pictures look correct and uncropped on my iMac.
No connection or output I tested reduced the cropping.
This is obviously a decision the software engineers made, or a hardware limitation of the graphics card.
If it bothers you, you should return the unit. This will (most likely) never be fixed. I reported the bug to Apple and, if it's not fixed in Take 2, it seems likely it won't be fixed for awhile.
Take 2 looks a lot like Apple's attempt to create a viable product (mass-market as opposed to home hobbyist) out of the
For me, it doesn't matter if the product is orphaned since I'm one of those home hobbyists (geeks) who is satisfied with version 1.1, and am torn about updating at all. The box does just what I wanted it to do, just what I bought it for, and though there are some inconveniences/oversights/ease of use problems, I do not regret my purchase at all.
Thanks for the information, it's been helpful.
We probably will keep the unit, as I said I can see a lot of use for it.
Knowing these limitations, especially what you pointed out with photographs I can at least on that end shoot to compensate. in other words don't zoom in so close that everything I want to show is from edge to edge. Frequently in macro work I will do that. Of course the camera viewfinder on many cameras takes care of this as very view show 100% of what hits the censor.
I have an event coming up this weekend to photograph, a custom motorcycle show. That often requires so tight close-up work of the artwork on the bikes. We just started playing with photographs on the ATV today and liked what it did.
It's a nice device, with some limitations. Knowing these limitations and being able to work within them can make the difference.
Thanks again!
Maybe on Monday I will have some pics from the show to post in another area of the forum.
Two questions for the original poster...
1. Was the television show originally produced for British TV?
2. Was the television show produced independently, for public access, internet distribution or otherwise non-broadcast channel... or for a large network?
I may know the exact answer to your problem...
1. Was the television show originally produced for British TV?
2. Was the television show produced independently, for public access, internet distribution or otherwise non-broadcast channel... or for a large network?
I may know the exact answer to your problem...
1.) No it is a USA television show.
2.) It was produced by a cable network { E! Entertainment Television Inc. } for distribution in the USA.
This weekend they had a "marathon" of these episodes on Cable so I recorded them on the DVR. Playback of the e[isodes the DVR allowed me to see the amount of cropping. I was fortunate to catch the same episode from Cable that I downloaded from iTunes
Keep in mind this is one show. The 'cropping' has been seen by me on at least one other show and also on DVD movies made in " Full Screen " mode, by major US Studios. Of course issues with the DVD movies have another variable, software used to create the MP4.
Another poster to this thread confirmed he also saw the cropping with photographs. He was fairly precise in saying 32 pixels was cropped from the top and bottom when viewed on his wide screen television.
What intrigued me the most was for this one show, which was downloaded from iTunes Music Store, slight cropping was evident on playback on the iMac, but when SYNC'd or Streamed to the Apple TV the cropping was more severe.
I posted a screen shot from the iMac where you can see in the Credits the Producer name is partially cropped off, on the TV the name is completely cropped out.
I am realizing that this is some sort of limitation within the Hardware/Software and something that I will have to learn to live with.
Looks like a case of poorly aligned graphics not placed in the safe crop zones of a NLE.
Would this explain the fact that the Apple TV is cropping off more than what is seen on the iMac?
Think of it like this .... there is a name displayed on the lower left hand corner of the frame. That is the name of the producer.
On the cable tv viewing the name if fully present.
On the iMac viewing the download from ITMS the name is partially present.
Streamed from the iMac to the TV via
TV, the name it completely gone.I could understand it being partially lost in the NLE as it was prepared for distribution on iTunes, but that doesn't quite explain further loss from the iMac to the TV through the
TV. Does it?EDIT: Just did a PHOTO TEST with interesting result .... adding pic .... be right back!
Look at the picture of the round table show here. This is at it appears in iPhoto. I created an Album called " Crop Test " and put the photo in there.
I then SYNC'd it to the Apple TV.
The picture was clearly cropped top and bottom by the Apple TV in Viewing Mode.
HOWEVER ......
Before I selected the Album to be played, a 'thumbnail' was displayed on the TV and it showed the entire round table. Only when I pressed PLAY and the pic came on full view was it cropped. The crop was so severe that it came up from the bottom and down from the top clear past the wood border around the table.
Something is clearly happening between the Apple TV and the Sony TV. I was beginning to believe it has something to do with the DVI input. Remember the cable I have between the ATV and Sony is an HDMI-->DVI, and maybe the TV itself, but a previous poster said he saw the picture cropping on his setup which was straight DVI-->DVI
The two added pics show screen shots of MENU and VIEWED. You can clearly see the areas above and below cropped.
Attachments
That is EXACTLY what it is.
The iMac must have something internal to its software that crops the image because when multimedia files are prepared, the entire video plus overscan outside the tv-safe region.
I asked the extra question about whether it was produced in the UK because those TV-safe regions are taller to conform to the 576 line vertical resolution of PAL. However, it needn't be the case.
All that seems to have happened here is that the show's producers/editors keyed the graphics over the edge of the safe region boundary.
Then, when iMac's software cropped it (as seems to be the case for any multimedia file made from a TV show or motion picture digital intermediate... otherwise you might see all kinds of odd junk) it got cut a little. When AppleTV displayed it, it may have cropped it and/or rescaled it up... pushing the graphics even further out of TV-safe. You have to remember that files purchased from iTunes are not 720x480 DV NTSC or 720x486 CCIR-601 (D1 NTSC)... so some rescaling is required on a TV, and some cropping is required on a monitor (because computer monitors do not have fixed NTSC or ATSC resolution).
But this is perfectly fine if the program is edited properly with all title keying done within safe-lines and according to the geometry of the intended aspect ratio.
It's also possible the original TV segment was done properly but the masterfile provided by Style TV was already cropped incorrectly.
Making matters worse is the fact that it sounds like the OP isn't even using a widescreen HDTV. The reason Apple has this requirement probably has a lot to do with the conformity of the field in view when upscaled because currently ALL of the TV content (excluding podcasts) mastered in standard definition has been sold through Apple iTunes Store at less than DV NTSC resolution... Consequently all this content has to be rescaled.
I don't imagine this last issue will continue to be a factor as Apple pushes out SD and HD rentals at full SD and HD resolutions, and when they introduce iPod/iPhone displays capable of outputting at 720x480 resolution.
Of course the output resolution of the source files may always be hindered as long as content producers seek to use this as one additional means of making it difficult to distribute high quality cracked copies that could be burned to disc and sold on the black market in foreign markets.
That explains the video perhaps.
Care to explain the photo, created on the iMac, looking good on the iMac, yet being cropped when displayed on Apple TV.
This is evident on two TV's one a widescreen, the other not.
The poster that has the widescreen setup went so far as to say that 32 pixels are cut from the top and bottom.
You can see this in the photos I provided.
It does seem as though the edges of the image were pushed beyond the viewing area. He did his testing on a
In all honesty I had not gotten to test photograph until that was brought up.
The pictures I posted are of a round table, I shot from overhead.
Using iPhoto, I cropped the picture so that the edges of the round table met the edge of the photograph. Looked perfect on the iMac, of course because it was created there. But you can see what happened when played through the Apple TV.
And in being honest the clipped edges of the table are at the extrememes of the 'viewing' area on a non-widescreen tv.
In response .....
a) This is not something *I* ripped, it was DOWNLOADED from ITUNES
b) This phenomenon has now been demonstrated on 3 different TV sets. One a HD 4:3 set and the other 2 were WIDESCREEN tv sets.
c) Is your response the answer for a PHOTOGRAPH being clipped as well ????
Maybe you just got here, and maybe you have not read all that was written, I dunno!
harcosparky,
Ok, so here's some more information for you.
I wanted some fine art (paintings done by artists) as screensaver "photos" on our Apple TV. My wife and I like art from the Impressionists on, including Surrealism, Expressionism, etc. So I downloaded a ton of (free) art images from the internet. I loaded them into iPhoto, examined them in an iPhoto slideshow, and eventually uploaded them to the Apple TV. This was where my problems started.
It was immediately obvious to both my wife and I that the images were being cropped -- tough to miss on art, easy to overlook on a snapshot.
So I opened photoshop, did some tests with format, pixel shape, borders, etc. What I came up with was that if I bordered the top and bottom of the images with 32 pixels of black, the black would almost completely disappear on the HDTV when looking at a slideshow.
I thought that perhaps the Ken Burns effect was "reserving" a border in order to slide the image around, so I turned this effect off. Same result: serious top and bottom cropping.
720p -> HDMI -> 57" 16X9 HDTV (Set to 16X9) Cropped
1080i -> HDMI -> 57" 16X9 HDTV (Set to 16X9) Cropped
etc.
No matter what I set, the AppleTV was scaling up the image such that 64 pixels (total) were being cropped.
I now noticed that some Warner Bros. cartoons I recently ripped have the bottoms obviously cropped.
I am going to do some tests with Handbrake this evening and will post my results in this thread. In the meantime, you can certainly do what I did -- write a simple batch process using Photoshop to read in a directory of photos and resize the image so that it has a border of black... it's a hack, but it worked for the art images we use as our screensaver.
-- Mikie
Ok, so here's some more information for you.
I wanted some fine art (paintings done by artists) as screensaver "photos" on our Apple TV. My wife and I like art from the Impressionists on, including Surrealism, Expressionism, etc. So I downloaded a ton of (free) art images from the internet. I loaded them into iPhoto, examined them in an iPhoto slideshow, and eventually uploaded them to the Apple TV. This was where my problems started.
It was immediately obvious to both my wife and I that the images were being cropped -- tough to miss on art, easy to overlook on a snapshot.
So I opened photoshop, did some tests with format, pixel shape, borders, etc. What I came up with was that if I bordered the top and bottom of the images with 32 pixels of black, the black would almost completely disappear on the HDTV when looking at a slideshow.
I thought that perhaps the Ken Burns effect was "reserving" a border in order to slide the image around, so I turned this effect off. Same result: serious top and bottom cropping.
720p -> HDMI -> 57" 16X9 HDTV (Set to 16X9) Cropped
1080i -> HDMI -> 57" 16X9 HDTV (Set to 16X9) Cropped
etc.
No matter what I set, the AppleTV was scaling up the image such that 64 pixels (total) were being cropped.
I now noticed that some Warner Bros. cartoons I recently ripped have the bottoms obviously cropped.
I am going to do some tests with Handbrake this evening and will post my results in this thread. In the meantime, you can certainly do what I did -- write a simple batch process using Photoshop to read in a directory of photos and resize the image so that it has a border of black... it's a hack, but it worked for the art images we use as our screensaver.
-- Mikie
Sure its not overscan? I don't have the issue when i set my 1080p plasma to 1:1 pixel mapping but I'd obviously see clipping when set to the 5% overscan mode?
Same issue... The TV safe regions do not magically go away when in photo mode. the video signal being output while displaying photos is not altered.
I wouldn't worry about this unless every photo you take you're trying to format for video... in which case you need to do what I do when I'm filming or photographing stills and take the safe regions into account when photographing.
This is part of the normal process of framing and blocking that every director of photography on every television and film production has to take into account.
Your other alternatives are...
a) Deal with it.
b) Get a display that allows you to replicate the non-overscan mode of a computer. Of course then you'll have to switch modes constantly because in TV and film you'll periodically see unwanted stuff at the edges because the cinematographers were blocking and framing their shots with TV-safe regions in mind.
They aren't cut (not on TV anyway). They're there, behind the plastic molding. Want a display that extends past the safe regions like a computer? Well, then you have to contend with the ugliness and inconsistency of non-matted images. By matted I mean that the edges that cover the safe area act as a matte. Without this, any kind of slight inconsistency in aspect ratio will be visible and some programs will have a line here a line there... a boom mic edge... all sorts of goodies.
No it's not because it was "created there"... it's because of two things.
1. The image you created has square pixels.
2. The Mac monitor displays square pixels and has no "tv-safe boundary", the output signal ends before it meets the edge of the visible area of the display.
If you want to format your images for TV as opposed to a computer monitor, then you need to do a few things:
1. Use safe region guides to frame your shot either while photographing or when resizing the image, but do not crop the edges outside the safe regions.
2. Scale the image to match the output resolution of your TV.
3. Change the density to 72 pixels per inch.
4. Ensure the pixel aspect ratio matches the display (0.9 for SD, 1:1 for HDTV).
I have yet to find any settings on my Samsung that relate to overscan or pixel mapping. Sigh. I wish I could.