Mbox with ProTools LE for casual amateur recording or something else?

[actionslacks]

Originally posted by junior
Ofcourse, you can use the nice MOTU gear with Logic. Although I haven't tried it yet, I 've heard the new Digital Performer is still very buggy. Is this true? And by the way phrancpharmD, your iBook is dual bootable. Check out PT free on it. If you really like the software interface, like I do, then it could be your thing.

DP 4 is great. I haven't had any problems. I prefer it to logic, but yes you could use MOTU gear with Logic as well I guess.

My point is that whether it is Logic or DP, you have so many more options than being stuck using Pro Tools with only their equipment. And I frankly think the MOTU interfaces are of much better quality than ProTools interfaces -except maybe the HD stuff which I doubt too many people here are buying.

 

[zimv20]

Originally posted by actionslacks
I frankly think the MOTU interfaces are of much better quality than ProTools interfaces

in what way?

 

[actionslacks]

Originally posted by zimv20
in what way?

it is a subjective opinion, but in my experiences comparing pro Tools convertors to MOTU's I have gotten much better sound quality for a better price. The low end ProTools products are just not very good.

But there are a lot of factors that go in to getting high quality audio in to your computer besides just the a/d convertor. Mics, boards, cables, (etc.) all contribute.

I'll boil it down to this. If you go MOTU you will be able to expand (add new hardware to your existing set up) as much as you want. Plus you can use it with Digital Performer OR Logic, if you so choose. With ProTools you are stuck with whatever they decide to come out with and what they charge you for it.

 

[phrancpharmD]

Originally posted by actionslacks
I'll boil it down to this. If you go MOTU you will be able to expand (add new hardware to your existing set up) as much as you want. Plus you can use it with Digital Performer OR Logic, if you so choose. With ProTools you are stuck with whatever they decide to come out with and what they charge you for it.

Thanks for the "condensed" version; and thanks to everyone so far for their input and for providing links. I have a new bookmarks folder now with a lot of great stuff in it. Glad I came to y'all; I really still have a lot of research to do. . . Keep your suggestions coming please!

 

[alset]

Originally posted by zimv20
in what way?

Low end PT gear has crappy pre-amps. The D/A converters suck some of the life out of a performance, rather than addind to it.

Someone mentioned the dongle for running Logic. Well, the MBox is the biggest dongle I've ever seen!

Dan

 

[zimv20]

Originally posted by actionslacks
in my experiences comparing pro Tools convertors to MOTU's I have gotten much better sound quality for a better price. The low end ProTools products are just not very good.

i didn't know if you meant better feature-wise or better sound-quality-wise.

when you mentioned "low end" digi gear, do you mean just the mbox? or are you considering the digi002 (rack or not) low end?

 

[junior]

Originally posted by alset
Low end PT gear has crappy pre-amps. The D/A converters suck some of the life out of a performance, rather than addind to it.

Someone mentioned the dongle for running Logic. Well, the MBox is the biggest dongle I've ever seen!

Dan

Actually the lowest-end Digi gear, the mbox, has two focusrite pre-amps, which are far from crappy. The second low-end gear, the 001, I can tell you is of absolutely fine quality. I work in the music production business, so I'm constantly working with PT 24Mix plus and PT HD. The 001 for the price, along with the LE software that comes with it, is a very good value for money.
I'm certainly not knocking MOTU though, cause there gear is getting better and better, and amazingly, cheaper! They make some great gear.

 

[JFreak]

in the end it's all about opinions and personal preference. choose what you like. but keep in mind that protools is the apple of all audio recording systems - it's THE pro's tool.

if you plan to make final tweaks to your project in a real studio, mbox is THE best buy for you simply because you already record your project in the pro format. you can transfer your project to big studio's system in 5 mins and not pay big dollars for nothing. i'd hate to spend half a day transferring some dp4-project to protools because moving protoolsLE project to protoolsTDM system is faster task than having a cup of coffee.

this is just one thing to think about. if you're simply recording 2trk stereo for little post processing (home movie soundtrack maybe?), then i'd say it doesn't matter budget-wise what you choose. but if you're planning to go from project studio to a real studio some day, better plan ahead and start on the right platform.

protools is for pros, there's no alternative. tdm systems are though in totally different league. you cannot even talk about them and logic/dp in a same sentence. however protoolsLE is capable of 32 tracks and that's plenty. needing more you should be in a real studio.

it doesn't matter if you have 2 or 8 or whatever number of inputs if you mainly record one track (be it mono or stereo) at a time. you only need more when recording drum kit, or plan to take a whole band live. you have to think what you want to do SIMULTANEOUSLY when deciding about the input count. if mbox's not enough, consider the 002 rack version. double the price, quadruple the inputs. plus, with 002r you double the sample rate also.

protools is the (only) way.

 

[daveg5]

others not mentioned

currently using cubase sl ($99 upgrade) i am the only one that loves this program in osx along with rolands vm3100pro mixer (about ($300 on ebay) a real "sleeper" bargain,
it gives me 2 real hardware effects processors 8 inputs including mic and phantom power transport and fader control (havent got the fader and transport to work in osx yet they work great in os9 though with cubase vst and logic) loads of output possibilities the faders and transport control work with the free bias deck 3.5 demo though. very good 24 bit sound 8 channel recording at once is easy, very solidly built oops but that is pci only. i have also heard very good things about the tascam us 122 for those on a budget every bit the equal of the mbox. for much less. however my favorite by far is the tascam fw 1884 and fe8 this is much better then logic control because it has an 8in 8 out 24/96 bit audio and 4in 4 out midi box motorized faders for just $300 more and 8 channel expansion boxes with more faders it looks the best and this is tascam the multitrack pioneers and quality hardware makers $1299 no lcd track names, sort of like a less expensive digi 002/ yamaha 01X but more expandable though

 

[legion]

I'd have to respectively disagree with JFreak on ProTools. I work in a major LA studio and even though we have multiple high-end ProTool rigs, we are starting to bypass them because they're so limiting. ProTools=Vendor Lock-In and excessively priced equipment. The other day I was glancing through one of our studio rigs and just noticed how much of the protools equipment was turned off because there are better computer-based solutions. From the outside, I can understand how ProTools looks like the way to go (for most recording engineers, that's where they start) but when you're looking to move to the cutting edge or thinking outside the box, ProTools doesn't seem to cut-it. As for transfers between studio systems across software platforms, it's a piece of cake and if you're transferring to film editors, you wouldn't use ProTools formats anyway. In high-end setups, the up-and-comers and marketleaders in software and hardware for the audio market are Steinberg, Euphonix, GigaStudio, Mackie and Yamaha. ProTools is a leader only by virtue of it's (current) marketshare, but is fading as studios modernize.

 

[Peter Kim]

so....

Originally posted by legion
I'd have to respectively disagree with JFreak on ProTools. I work in a major LA studio and even though we have multiple high-end ProTool rigs, we are starting to bypass them because they're so limiting.

so what do you use now?

 

[phrancpharmD]

Originally posted by JFreak

if you plan to make final tweaks to your project in a real studio, mbox is THE best buy for you simply because you already record your project in the pro format

protoolsLE is capable of 32 tracks and that's plenty. needing more you should be in a real studio.

it doesn't matter if you have 2 or 8 or whatever number of inputs if you mainly record one track (be it mono or stereo) at a time. you only need more when recording drum kit, or plan to take a whole band live

Several good points here JFreak; thank you. I will probably NEVER get into a "real" studio as I plan on this being not much more than a "hobby" (I'm a pharmacist educator and don't see myself changing anytime too soon!) Yes, 32 tracks is more than enough for me, but I would MOST likely be recording live - bringing my iBook and equipment to whomever I am going to record, and not in a true "studio" setting (although that is an eventual possibility) - thus more inputs might be important. And as this is my first foray into recording / producing, I don't think the 002 would be right for me now.

daveg5, thanks for the tip on the Roland mixer. I'll check it out.

 

[junior]

Originally posted by legion
I'd have to respectively disagree with JFreak on ProTools. I work in a major LA studio and even though we have multiple high-end ProTool rigs, we are starting to bypass them because they're so limiting. ProTools=Vendor Lock-In and excessively priced equipment. The other day I was glancing through one of our studio rigs and just noticed how much of the protools equipment was turned off because there are better computer-based solutions. From the outside, I can understand how ProTools looks like the way to go (for most recording engineers, that's where they start) but when you're looking to move to the cutting edge or thinking outside the box, ProTools doesn't seem to cut-it. As for transfers between studio systems across software platforms, it's a piece of cake and if you're transferring to film editors, you wouldn't use ProTools formats anyway. In high-end setups, the up-and-comers and marketleaders in software and hardware for the audio market are Steinberg, Euphonix, GigaStudio, Mackie, Yamaha. ProTools is a leader only by virtue of it's (current) marketshare, but is fading as studio's modernize.

From my own experience, I would have to respectively disagree with legion.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I work in the music production business, and over the last two years, every single respected studio I have used have had ProTools installed. They also have the SONY PCM-3348 digital recorder (this is the standard recorder in all top studios in Japan for some reason.).
The products you mentioned : Steinberg, Euphonix, GigaStudio, Mackie, Yamaha. They have nothing to do with recording in a top notch studio. Console-wise, you certainly ain't going to see a Mackie around. In general, the studios are likely to have SSL or NEVE. Euphonics make amps, Gigastudio is a sampler, Yamaha's consoles are for smaller studios, and Steinberg? Don't tell me your studio has ditched protools TDM for Cubase or Nuendo!
Are you sure you work in a MAJOR LA recording studio? So what are you guys using instead of ProTools?

 

[legion]

we use...

Software:
Steinberg Nuendo 2 and Cubase SX
Multiple (TASCAM) GigaStudio 160 platforms for sampling. Scope. VST streaming.

Hardware:
Euphonix,
Mackie and Yamaha control surfaces

TC Sys 6000 for effects (which rocks )

(...and yes, ProTools is almost always kept running somewhere as a safety net for the rec newbies and DigiDesign TDM racks are maxed, but mostly off to one side-- mostly just sapping power. Everytime we look at designing a new studio or re-racking a room it's a question of what to do with really expensive equipment that has only the single purpose of running ProTools (which has fallen out of favour) it's quite a waste of money (imho))

Then there's still alot of favoured analogue synths that require A/D racks (slowly moving away from this but there are still some things hard to replace by VST, especially if you already own the equip .)

 

[junior]

Re: we use...

Originally posted by legion
Software:
Steinberg Nuendo 2 and Cubase SX
Multiple (TASCAM) GigaStudio 160 platforms for sampling. Scope. VST streaming.

Hardware:
Euphonix,
Mackie and Yamaha control surfaces

TC Sys 6000 for effects (which rocks )

(...and yes, ProTools is almost always kept running somewhere as a safety net for the rec newbies and DigiDesign TDM racks are maxed, but mostly off to one side-- mostly just sapping power. Everytime we look at designing a new studio or re-racking a room it's a question of what to do with really expensive equipment that has only the single purpose of running ProTools (which has fallen out of favour) it's quite a waste of money (imho))

Then there's still alot of favoured analogue synths that require A/D racks (slowly moving away from this but there are still some things hard to replace by VST, especially if you already own the equip .)

Then sorry but I just can't see your place being a MAJOR recording studio in LA of all places. It sounds more like a studio specifically designed for internal production, rather than for rental purposes, which would justify all the equipments you mentioned. Basically you just can't charge much rental money at all for the equipments you mentioned, simply because they didn't cost much to purchase in the first place.
I promise you that a major recording studio in LA will very likely have either a SSL, Neve or a custom built console, and they certainly won't waste their hundreds of grands worth of console by connecting it to Nuendo.

 

[Killswitch]

audio software

Hey there... I'll tell ya what I'm currently using, and perhaps that will help.

Powerbook g4/800 running Logic Platinum, EMI 6/2 and tons of AU's and Wrapped VST's. I also use Reason 2.5 and Ableton live. This setup replaced an entire garage of hardware synths and samplers. And I can haul it in a backpack!

To start, I would probably steer you in the direction of the Logic Gold production kit. Especially if you plan to expand your music making endeavours in the future.
There is also a new book out from Peachpit Press for helping the new logic user get up to speed.

Spend your moneywisely... an Mbox is a quick and easy solution...but not an expandable one. Purchasing a good sequencing/mixing app is a good, lasting investment..and you can update it when you eventually get a G5 .

--make music and have fun.

 

[legion]

Originally posted by junior
Are you sure you work in a MAJOR LA recording studio?

If our choice in equipment makes us "small" I'm happy with that ... we still make quite a commotion in the recording industry (sounds a little like a company named Apple ) and we never suffer from a lack of clients (which pays the bills .)

Didn't mean to make this into an anti-ProTool rant (especially since I really really like Avid for personal film projects.) Just figured that if I was going to start again today, without any previous financial investment, I wouldn't take the ProTool route when there are other solutions available.

 

[phrancpharmD]

Re: audio software

Originally posted by Killswitch

I would probably steer you in the direction of the Logic Gold production kit. Especially if you plan to expand your music making endeavours in the future.
There is also a new book out from Peachpit Press for helping the new logic user get up to speed.

Mbox is a quick and easy solution. . . but not an expandable one

make music and have fun.

Sounds like a recurring theme in this thread Thanks for the tip on the book, too. From what I've heard about Logic's "steep" learning curve, I'll probably need to pick some sort of tutorial up. . .

 

[zimv20]

Re: audio software

Originally posted by Killswitch
Logic Platinum,[...] Wrapped VST's.

what are you using to wrap the VSTs?

 

[actionslacks]

Originally posted by JFreak


protools is for pros, there's no alternative. tdm systems are though in totally different league. you cannot even talk about them and logic/dp in a same sentence. however protoolsLE is capable of 32 tracks and that's plenty. needing more you should be in a real studio.

protools is the (only) way.

I work in Film/television Post Production and ProTools is used almost exclusively. It also makes my life a hell of a lot easier.

BUT, there are alternatives. It is NOT the only way. And it is not always the best way just because it is the most used (Windows?). Over the next few years Digidesign will begin to loose market share just like Avid (although, Avid is the best product for the job regardless of the money).

I am not saying that ProTools is a bad product, but I will not agree that it is the only way, further, I will seriously Disagree that it is the best in terms of quality.

Do a google search for "alsihad" and find out what kind of reputation ProTools equipment has amongst recording engineers. Sound purists will use alternatives if they have the chance (i.e. the corporate types don't force them to use it because they think "it is the only way to go"). They may use ProTools software, but they will avoid the convertors for sure.

 

[zimv20]

for all the anti-pro-tools people, what a/d unit should i buy to replace my digi001?

my requirements:
- portable (i.e. firewire or usb), rackmount preferred
- 2-8 quality preamps w/ phantom power
- good a/d d/a converters
- headphone preamp w/ own volume control
- ability to accept (and pass to computer) some kind of optical input
- works w/ my preferred DAW*

nice to haves:
- ability to side-chain inputs post-preamp and pre-conversion
- stereo monitor out & stereo main out
- # of analog outs >= # analog ins

* right now my preferred DAW is Pro Tools LE, but i'm learning Logic and, once i become as proficient at that as i am in PTLE, i may switch. must also work w/ Reason. all osx, of course.

 

[actionslacks]

Originally posted by zimv20
for all the anti-pro-tools people, what a/d unit should i buy to replace my digi001?

my requirements:
- portable (i.e. firewire or usb), rackmount preferred
- 2-8 quality preamps w/ phantom power
- good a/d d/a converters
- headphone preamp w/ own volume control
- ability to accept (and pass to computer) some kind of optical input
- works w/ my preferred DAW*

nice to haves:
- ability to side-chain inputs post-preamp and pre-conversion
- stereo monitor out & stereo main out
- # of analog outs >= # analog ins

MOTU 828 MKII

* right now my preferred DAW is Pro Tools LE, but i'm learning Logic and, once i become as proficient at that as i am in PTLE, i may switch. must also work w/ Reason. all osx, of course. [/B]

Um... If your preferred DAW is ProTools then stick with that. It is good software and you will be compatible with the mainstream.

In case it hasn't become painfully clear in the previous posts - ProTools only works with Digidesign hardware. Check their website for your options.

 

[alset]

Originally posted by junior

As I mentioned in my previous post, I work in the music production business, and over the last two years, every single respected studio I have used have had ProTools installed.

True, but that doesn't make PT the best tool by any means. Studios are aiming for compatibility. I believe someone already made the allusion to M$ Windows and it's installed base having nothing to do with it's quality.

I wouldn't call PT the tool of pros, I'd say it's just one more tool in your garage. The problem, as someone else stated above, is the systematic lock-down DigiDesign forces on your studio. They have a brilliant business plan, and I really respect them for making such a smart move. The results, however, can be detrimental to the user.

Imagine if you wanted to fix your engine, but the Craftsman tools wouldn't work with tools made by any other manufacturer. Sure, you might be able to buy everything you need from Craftsman, but now it's not even an option to look into some of the potentially great deals you can find elsewhere. It may not bother some, but it bothers me. Hell, I love Logic, but I'm still irritated by their new system of supporting only AudioUnits. Imagine if I was under DDs thumb.

Dan

 

[zimv20]

Originally posted by actionslacks
MOTU 828 MKII [...] ProTools only works with Digidesign hardware.

that's the big sticking point -- i'm not ready to give up PT and must stick w/ digi gear.

regarding the MOTU unit, which i've considered, it's got 2 XLR inputs vs. the 4 of the digi002 rack.

for those two reasons, i'm leaning towards the digi002r. plus, if i trade in my digi001, the 002 is a good deal less than the MOTU unit.

 

[actionslacks]

Originally posted by zimv20
that's the big sticking point -- i'm not ready to give up PT and must stick w/ digi gear.

regarding the MOTU unit, which i've considered, it's got 2 XLR inputs vs. the 4 of the digi002 rack.

for those two reasons, i'm leaning towards the digi002r. plus, if i trade in my digi001, the 002 is a good deal less than the MOTU unit.

??

Of course it is cheaper if you have a trade in! The question is - How much is it going to cost you when you want to trade in your Digi 002? With MOTU you can just keep adding I/Os for expansion rather than replacement.

Anyway, what is the point of this? Clearly you want to stick with ProTools so your decisioin is made.