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AFAIK Apple Mail does not have proper snoozing - one that is temporarily moving the mail from inbox to the snoozed folder.

I use the "inbox zero" method - everything needs to be snoozed or archived, I don't want any emails in my inbox unless they are very important and require some action soon.
Sure. Apple Mail is now so generic, I'm not sure why anyone would use it except out of habit (umm I include myself in that).

Mail.app only just had the innovations of 2015 in 2022, for example (Google Inbox and the company that MS bought to turn their signature app into the iOS Outlook app, I forget their name).
 
Sure. Apple Mail is now so generic, I'm not sure why anyone would use it except out of habit (umm I include myself in that).

Mail.app only just had the innovations of 2015 in 2022, for example (Google Inbox and the company that MS bought to turn their signature app into the iOS Outlook app, I forget their name).
Well, we have to use something ;)

Outlook is a great alternative to Airmail and other third parties. Especially if you consider only Mail.app alternatives that run on all devies (Mac, iPhone, iPad and Watch).

I sure won't be using the GMail web UI, not with 3 accounts on two computers, 2 portables and 2 watches.
 
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Try holding down the SHIFT key and then launching Apple Mail. It's a pain in the butt, but doing this reliably displays the e-mail content for me.

I've noticed this bug for several months now. Now on Monterey, but it may have been an issue in previous macOS versions as well.
sweet! I'll try it the next time. It seems to be behaving this week.
 
Hmmm, I noted that the form is prefaced with the text, "How does this content violate the Microsoft Services Agreement?" I haven't read that agreement, but it seems that it's referring to content that resides on, is hosted or is generated by a Microsoft service. The app itself (Outlook) is not generating the spam e-mail—it's merely rendering it. So, I would tend to think that this feature would not apply to content on, say, a non-Microsoft-owned server, such as Gmail, iCloud or your Web hosting service. If it does, then that begs the question: is Microsoft using Outlook to copy and store the content of your e-mail inboxes hosted by other non-Microsoft services as well, to their own servers? That would seem a bit roundabout for Microsoft to do that, but I do wonder how this feature applies to non-Microsoft e-mail providers, if at all.
If I read the legalese print of that... it also says that whatever offending email content, including the Body of the email itself and any Metadata, would be subject for review by Microsoft. Which means, I just gave them license to scour and access content, including allowing them to store the content of the email on their own servers.

Which means....regardless of whether I forward/report Microsft an email from my crazy angry ex-lover, or from a random stranger scammer fraud living in Far Northwestern Mongolia.... I just willingly gave Microsoft the legal permission to scour that email. At least that's how I interpret it.


1678334988059.png
 
Is Google still cool? I thought that ended in 2009 or so!

But like you, I am - sadly - pretty old now, so I don't know either way 😥
GMail and Google is actually quite popular... "cool" with the young generations, Gen Z, etc.

Remember that the majority of them don't give a flying rat **** about compromising their personal info and privacy. They have zero mistrust and zero hostilities toward Google in those regards. Exactly like they don't have any hesitation giving and surrendering their personal private daily info to Chinese-owned TikTok.

In their minds, Google is awesome because it provides them free.... whatever. Free email, free search, free AI, free hosting, free ultra-popular web browser (Chrome), free Gooogle Maps, free this and free that. They love it. In their minds, they are getting a "free ride".
 
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If I read the legalese print of that... it also says that whatever offending email content, including the Body of the email itself and any Metadata, would be subject for review by Microsoft. Which means, I just gave them license to scour and access content, including allowing them to store the content of the email on their own servers.

Which means....regardless of whether I forward/report Microsft an email from my crazy angry ex-lover, or from a random stranger scammer fraud living in Far Northwestern Mongolia.... I just willingly gave Microsoft the legal permission to scour that email. At least that's how I interpret it.


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I can see how maybe they would want that e-mail content to train their junk mail filters, and why they are asking for permission to use that. What I'm less clear about is whether we're giving Microsoft permission to download and access ALL of our e-mails, simply by using Outlook. I would tend to think not, since that's a heckuva lot of data to store for every single user of Outlook out there. Still, I wouldn't put it past them. Data harvesting to improve system and software functionality is a real sore spot these days. I realize that it has to be done automatically and algorithmically by necessity, but it still pays to read the fine print (which I, like many people, seldom find the time to do when it comes to software).
 
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In their minds, Google is awesome because it provides them free.... whatever. Free email, free search, free AI, free hosting, free ultra-popular web browser (Chrome), free Gooogle Maps, free this and free that. They love it. In their minds, they are getting a "free ride".
Apple does pay Google Google does pay Apple a sizeable sum to feature Google as the/a prominent search engine in their device OSes. I think it's in the billions of USD, if I'm not mistaken. Microsoft has their own search engine (Bing), of course, but I wonder how many other companies have such an agreement that helps fund Google's services, considering that most users pay nothing for them.

Interesting to think about how Google makes their money. It used to be through AdWords. Nowadays, I get the feeling that's not a huge part of their revenue, as they have other services and revenue streams like YouTube. I could be way off course, though.
 
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It's Google paying Apple. Apple is the one getting paid.

Afaik YouTube has never broken even, it hasn't had a profitable year even once.
Ah yes, my bad. Google is paying Apple. Thanks for that.
 
Even at free Outlook is still more than $500 PER MONTH too expensive. In other words, even if they tried to pay me to use it, I wouldn't.
 
Apple has a chance to fix Apple Mail and the constant "this message has no content" blank emails. If not, there will be more people who give this a shot.
Hi. So this "no content" message is a bug? Thought it was my provider's fault. Hot used to live with it. Do you know what's causing this bug?
 
Sure. Apple Mail is now so generic, I'm not sure why anyone would use it except out of habit (umm I include myself in that).

Mail.app only just had the innovations of 2015 in 2022, for example (Google Inbox and the company that MS bought to turn their signature app into the iOS Outlook app, I forget their name).
But what features are Mail.app missing that Outlook for Mac has?
 
If I read the legalese print of that... it also says that whatever offending email content, including the Body of the email itself and any Metadata, would be subject for review by Microsoft. Which means, I just gave them license to scour and access content, including allowing them to store the content of the email on their own servers.

Which means....regardless of whether I forward/report Microsft an email from my crazy angry ex-lover, or from a random stranger scammer fraud living in Far Northwestern Mongolia.... I just willingly gave Microsoft the legal permission to scour that email. At least that's how I interpret it.


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This is exactly what I was worried about. Every time I think about increasing my use of Microsoft (the 4000 NVIDIA laptops look so choice) I see crap like this. GRRRR. No thanks. I guess I better stick with Apple Mail and using Advanced Data Protection.
 
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GMail and Google is actually quite popular... "cool" with the young generations, Gen Z, etc.

Remember that the majority of them don't give a flying rat **** about compromising their personal info and privacy. They have zero mistrust and zero hostilities toward Google in those regards. Exactly like they don't have any hesitation giving and surrendering their personal private daily info to Chinese-owned TikTok.

In their minds, Google is awesome because it provides them free.... whatever. Free email, free search, free AI, free hosting, free ultra-popular web browser (Chrome), free Gooogle Maps, free this and free that. They love it. In their minds, they are getting a "free ride".
I guess that's how I felt about Google too in the 00s - I didn't think about the tradeoffs at all.

I even knew that Google scanned my Gmail and thought it was kinda cool.

I mean who wouldn't want personalised ads?

🤦‍♂️
 
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But what features are Mail.app missing that Outlook for Mac has?
I have an outlook.com email account, so I'm only talking about mail.app in the context of that (I did use gmail with mail.app for about 15 years until a few years ago).
  • It doesn't handle conversation threading properly. When you delete a thread in Outlook.app it'll delete the full set of sent and received emails. mail.app will just delete what's in your inbox. When I used mail.app for gmail, I remember it being a problem there too.
  • Schedule send. If you use an outlook.com or gmail email, schedule send works in the cloud if you initiate it in outlook.app (or the iOS app). Whereas mail.app has a device only schedule send (your device must be on/awake, mail.app open and have internet access.
  • Junk mail handling doesn't have a way to report to your email provider that it's junk (to help them with their junk filtering). It just isolates it in the mail.app. Ditto phishing.
  • Doesn't handle labels correctly (ditto for Gmail). I don't use labels so this isn't a deal breaker for me.
I do like mail a lot, but in an age where most email services have extra features (which have to exposed in the UI), mail.app is onto a bit of a losing end here by being so generic.

However, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em...

With the advanced data protection last year, I suspect that we'll see iCloud mail and calendar get encrypted this year, which'll be a way to turbocharge mail.app's usage.
 
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I have an outlook.com email account, so I'm only talking about mail.app in the context of that (I did use gmail with mail.app for about 15 years until a few years ago).
  • It doesn't handle conversation threading properly. When you delete a thread in Outlook.app it'll delete the full set of sent and received emails. mail.app will just delete what's in your inbox. When I used mail.app for gmail, I remember it being a problem there too.
I don’t see that that is not handling conversation threading. It keeps all of the messages back and forth in a single conversation regardless of which folder they are in; both sent and received. It may not be the strategy you expect but it seems perfectly valid. If I am deleting a thread, why would I expect it to leave some messages behind while deleting others?
 
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What's the catch?
The catch is that you’re the product. Plus the new “One Outlook” is pretty crap. But your data is the product so the app becomes their “free” portal into more of the data profile that comprises you.
 
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Microsoft Teams is free

Microsoft Solitaire Collection on iOS is free

Microsoft Visual Studio is free

Microsoft SQL Server Management Studio is free

Microsoft Windows upgrades are free

Minecraft updates are free

Microsoft OneNote is free

I can keep going if you want
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If its published price is “free”, ask how is it paid for? Typically it means you're the product. Your data profile is used to model their product on the most benign end or becomes sold on the open market in the worst case scenario.
 
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If I read the legalese print of that... it also says that whatever offending email content, including the Body of the email itself and any Metadata, would be subject for review by Microsoft. Which means, I just gave them license to scour and access content, including allowing them to store the content of the email on their own servers.

Which means....regardless of whether I forward/report Microsft an email from my crazy angry ex-lover, or from a random stranger scammer fraud living in Far Northwestern Mongolia.... I just willingly gave Microsoft the legal permission to scour that email. At least that's how I interpret it.


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Why would you care about the privacy of a spammer or phishing emailer? Why would you submit anything else?
 
I can see how maybe they would want that e-mail content to train their junk mail filters, and why they are asking for permission to use that. What I'm less clear about is whether we're giving Microsoft permission to download and access ALL of our e-mails, simply by using Outlook. I would tend to think not, since that's a heckuva lot of data to store for every single user of Outlook out there. Still, I wouldn't put it past them. Data harvesting to improve system and software functionality is a real sore spot these days. I realize that it has to be done automatically and algorithmically by necessity, but it still pays to read the fine print (which I, like many people, seldom find the time to do when it comes to software).
People that actually use it can click on settings, privacy and manage as desired...
 
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