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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,450
As I said earlier Microsoft has never supported Windows on Mac in any form so there is nothing unusual about the current M1 Mac situation, which is as expected.

The current M1 Mac situation is completely different: on Intel you could just buy the production, retail version of Windows. On M1 you have to join the "insiders" program and use a "preview/evaluation" copy of Windows - Now, somewhere there's a T&C file about the same length as War and Peace that describes the terms of the insiders program but, honestly, they wouldn't call it "insiders' preview" if it had the same status and support as the production version...

It is clearly stated to be an evaluation copy and is activated, so not a lucky hack.

If it is "clearly stated to be an evaluation copy" it is not licensed for production use or fully supported. That's what "evaluation copy" means.

The fact that you can activate it doesn't mean you have a valid license (heck, with the typical EULA you're lucky if having paid money to MS means that you have a valid license...) However, let's be realistic about this: MS has never made much effort to pursue individuals running unlicensed copies of Windows, so it might not matter to you - but licensing is something that matters to business who need to worry about (a) whether they can get support, (b) whether the solution will still work in 6 months' time and (c) whether they'll pass a software audit - and that will depend on the precise conditions.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,450
Parallels highly likely isn't gong to sign up to be a Tier 1 Windows support provider that the OEM license binds them to. They don't do it for x86 why would they start for ARM?
Well, that depends on how important Parallels Desktop is to their business (AFAIK their other line is the Plesk Linux containerisation software for web virtual hosting - which is probably also getting decimated by the more modern cloud providers). There's no guarantee that there is ever going to be a dominant, open-ish, ARM platform that would make a generic Windows retail license worthwhile). Windows-on-M1 is most likely going to be dependent on virtualisation - which leads to the counter-question: why would Microsoft take on Tier-1 support for Windows running on Parallels' & Apple's proprietary hypervisor?

I'm sure some major cloud providers with ARM servers have talked to Microsoft about doing a WoA service offering.
...except that's a market segment where Linux (which is pretty well developed on ARM and less dependent on binary compatibility than Windows) already has a significant presence, and a large proportion of users tied to Windows will also be tied to x86.

There's a reason that people talk about the "Wintel monopoly" - DOS/Windows and the x86 have been joined at the hip since IBM "made" them in 1981. Windows isn't going away any time soon - there's too much legacy stuff - but I think the rise of mobile and web technology in the last 10-15 years (which orbits around ARM and Linux rather than Wintel) marks the end of "peak Wintel". Hell froze over the day that MS announced SQL Server for Linux...
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,880
4,871
Interesting! So is everyone running Windows 10 or 11 ARM using illegal software?
Not necessarily, it depends on the situation. IIRC (I can't find the license agreement again) when I set it up it was limited to ARM devices already running Windows; which would me running it on a VM on a Mac would violate the agreement since MS did not sell non-OEM copies. I doubt MS cares much but for companies that are MS shops they would want to avoid any unlicensed MS products on their machines lest they get audited.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Well, that depends on how important Parallels Desktop is to their business (AFAIK their other line is the Plesk Linux containerisation software for web virtual hosting - which is probably also getting decimated by the more modern cloud providers). There's no guarantee that there is ever going to be a dominant, open-ish, ARM platform that would make a generic Windows retail license worthwhile).
\

The WoA system builder market doesn't have to be dominant (over the x86_64 one) ; it just has to be healthy. Windows has about 90% of the market. If WoA could just carve out a 10-15% of that then it would be larger than the Mac market, but x86-64 would still dominate ( 75-80% of the market). Right now it isn't a robust ecosystem. Qualcomm has mainly tried to pawn smartphone SoC onto the market. As long as it is only Qualcomm trying to sell more radios really isn't a viable ecosystem.

ARM doing the X1 and X2 ( and probably X3 and X4 ) cores isn't an absolute guarantee that it going to come , but it is a necessary precondition. ARM SoC with 4-6 X2's and 4 510's would be a far more viable foundation for a Windows ARM platform and that is just standard library parts (no need for a massive design team to get into the "game"). Those cores are coming 2022. It is only a matter of a vendor to allocate enough die space to put them in a Windows targeted SoC. The only thing needed is some limited tweaks and a fab order. Samsung (+AMD RDNAx GPU) + MediaTek (+ Nvidia GPU). It is going to get past the point where Qualcomm is the processor provider choke point. ( And if the Nuvia acquisition pans out for Qualcomm and they move to a more balanced diversification that will help also, but not necessary. )

Intel cooperating with Windows and making Windows 11 far better at "Big Little" will also something that is going to change the playing field for an rollout. Windows 11 dumping 32-bit as a major target mode and BIOS ( UEFI) and going solidly 64-bit only will have a side effect of further enabling the WoA solution. Microsoft spending tons of effort kowtowing to old , legacy 32bit x86 code is one of the boat anchors that has been holding WoA back. Windows 11 is going to help to largely help to cut those 1990's and 1980's stuff loose.

Will there every be a huge Windows 10 on ARM market? Probably not. The issue not though is that Windows is at an inflection and that likely to going to open a door for ARM and also for Intel/AMD. In the latter case to eject a wide swath of the 32-bit now dubious design moves that are hobbling them in the general PC market place ( especially on laptops. by 2025 not going to be surprising to see those two have a significant subset of their product that has "moved on" to a cleaned up x86_64 only. )


The final contributing factor will be Chromebooks. Similar rumblings of X2-510 SoCs coming that the larger players in Chromebooks HP/Dell/Lenovo/Acer system vendors that they sell models with small tweaks into both Windows and Chromebook markets.


Windows-on-M1 is most likely going to be dependent on virtualization - which leads to the counter-question: why would Microsoft take on Tier-1 support for Windows running on Parallels' & Apple's proprietary hypervisor?

They won't . Folks who buy an OEM license are on their own for Tier 1 support. ( the OEM, which is the person who bought it, is response for supporting themselves. ) . The folks doing it for free ... they won't in that case either in a substantive way .

If there are enough largely indistinguishable vitrual machine, lowest comment denominator targets out there they will , because there is scale. When Microsoft establishes a baselien on ARM with Hyper-V then they won't if Apple's hypervisor deviates too far. Microsoft is a hypervison provider themselves. They aren't going to let Apple dictate to them what a hypervision should or shouldn't minimally do for Windows 11. ( Widows 10 is on a 4 year delcine track now; 2025 de-support. )




...except that's a market segment where Linux (which is pretty well developed on ARM and less dependent on binary compatibility than Windows) already has a significant presence, and a large proportion of users tied to Windows will also be tied to x86.

Unix/Linux was a dominate player in data center market before the super hype "cloud migration" started. It dominates now because it dominated before. That what has happened has larger been moving servers from "private data center , private cloud" to "hosted / secured-public cloud". Those are data center to data center moves.

The move to push folks from dekstop OS back into the remote GUI "terminal" services mode with "even thinner" clients is different. The dominate player on desktop is Windows . The Linux desktop marketshare is a minor blimp.
Chromebooks and Macs are bigger players than that. This is actually a different sub-market segment for cloud services vendors. Not just cloud. Lot of business run "private" terminal services set ups which basically would run better , faster with ARM in more than a few cases if WoA+Office+necessary apps is sufficient.

There's a reason that people talk about the "Wintel monopoly" - DOS/Windows and the x86 have been joined at the hip since IBM "made" them in 1981. Windows isn't going away any time soon - there's too much legacy stuff - but I think the rise of mobile and web technology in the last 10-15 years (which orbits around ARM and Linux rather than Wintel) marks the end of "peak Wintel". Hell froze over the day that MS announced SQL Server for Linux...

x86-64 was pragmatically well deployed by 2006-7. Roll forward about 20 years ( 2026-27) there is a newer pile of now legacy stuff to support. The 40 and 50 year old stuff aren't really going to be a critical part of the business.
That could be largely chucked from most of the respective product lines.

As for SQL Server. Chuckle. SQL Server started off as a fork off of SyBase which was multiple platform in the first place. It was Ballmer , Gates, and Microsoft super ego that made it single platform. Someone managed to take their head out of the their butt and look around isn't "hell freezing over". IBM had mulitiple platfrom versions of DB2 for over a decades before Microsoft did. There was no way Microfsoft was ever , ever going beat Oracle and DB2 with the bonehead path they were on.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,867
There's a reason that people talk about the "Wintel monopoly" - DOS/Windows and the x86 have been joined at the hip since IBM "made" them in 1981. Windows isn't going away any time soon - there's too much legacy stuff - but I think the rise of mobile and web technology in the last 10-15 years (which orbits around ARM and Linux rather than Wintel) marks the end of "peak Wintel". Hell froze over the day that MS announced SQL Server for Linux...
Even when Wintel was at peak dominance, it was always an uneasy alliance. Microsoft and Intel have in effect been fighting tooth and nail over who gets the lion's share of the profits from every x86 PC sold. Each would love to get rid of the other, as long as it doesn't cost them their own monopoly on their portion of the x86 PC.

This is why Microsoft pursued porting Windows to many different RISC architectures as far back as the 1990s, and why Intel was so eager to work with Apple when Jobs approached Andy Grove about transitioning the Mac to x86.

Neither has ever found themselves in a position to make a really strong, sustained, committed push to getting rid of the other. Maybe that will change over time since, as you say, the importance of Windows is diminishing even to Microsoft.
 
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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,880
4,871
Maybe if they see a LOT of users using Windows ARM with Parallels they'll change their tune.

Even then it's probably not enough to notice. Windows has 4x the market share than MacOS. So for evry 40 Windows users there are 10 Mac. So if 20% use a VM that adds 2 Windows users, or 5%. I doubt that is of much interest to MS and even think 20% is probably a high estimate so the numbers are worse.
 

kundanno

macrumors newbie
Mar 5, 2021
28
11
Even then it's probably not enough to notice. Windows has 4x the market share than MacOS. So for evry 40 Windows users there are 10 Mac. So if 20% use a VM that adds 2 Windows users, or 5%. I doubt that is of much interest to MS and even think 20% is probably a high estimate so the numbers are worse.
It is still a substantial share of WoA users. And that is what matters to Microsoft...we are guinea pigs to have a solid Windows11 on Arm strategy.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,880
4,871
It is still a substantial share of WoA users.

I doubt the numbers are anywhere near as high for WoA users running it on As; especially since AS devices are a small % of total Macs at present. We're a rounding error.

And that is what matters to Microsoft...we are guinea pigs to have a solid Windows11 on Arm strategy.

What matters to MS is the Surface and similar devices. That's where the money is and the future, not AS. Getting WoA to run in a VM on a Mac is a low ROI sideshow that is simply not worth the effort.

You want to run Windows on a Mac or iPad? Use the Windows in the cloud offering; that's were MS sees Windows moving in the future as a way to reach any device.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
You want to run Windows on a Mac or iPad? Use the Windows in the cloud offering; that's were MS sees Windows moving in the future as a way to reach any device.
Good luck if you have a spotty internet connection. Latency is a problem as well -- no thank you. Microsoft is only thinking of enterprises for Windows in the cloud, they have to the resources to have a stable fast internet connection -- us single users, it's sub optimal to say the least.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Good luck if you have a spotty internet connection. Latency is a problem as well -- no thank you. Microsoft is only thinking of enterprises for Windows in the cloud, they have to the resources to have a stable fast internet connection -- us single users, it's sub optimal to say the least.

It's hard for me to consider Windows systems after getting spoiled by an M1 laptop. Not having to deal with heat in a laptop is really nice. I think that there may be some low-frequency laptops like the LG Gram 17 might be okay but you give up headroom. It doesn't look like Intel will have anything in the space of high-performance but runs cool department soon. AMD might with Zen 4; we'll have to see.

Again, I always say, if you need Windows, buy or build a Windows system.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
It's hard for me to consider Windows systems after getting spoiled by an M1 laptop.
So don't use them. I have to for work.

For me there's nothing special about my M1 MBA and it sits there unused, even for non work. I either use my Windows PC, which is faster than the M1 (128G RAM, i9 10900, decent discrete video), or my Intel Mac Mini (64G RAM, i7). The M1 just doesn't run enough of what I want it to run.

I'm hoping for a workable VM solution for the M1 that'll make it more useful to me, but I've been waiting for 10 months already.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
So don't use them. I have to for work.

For me there's nothing special about my M1 MBA and it sits there unused, even for non work. I either use my Windows PC, which is faster than the M1 (128G RAM, i9 10900, decent discrete video), or my Intel Mac Mini (64G RAM, i7). The M1 just doesn't run enough of what I want it to run.

I'm hoping for a workable VM solution for the M1 that'll make it more useful to me, but I've been waiting for 10 months already.

I use both. I have a Windows desktop and an M1 mini. I will get an M1X mini when they come out to replace my Windows desktop. I've spent about six months finding native or Rosetta 2 application to replace what I use now and I am almost there.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
2,665
OBX
Oh yep, I see PTT on my settings too. There are several options and nothing says TPM at all. This is going to take some research to figure out what to set and what not. How is the general user expected to do this? Windows 11 is going to have VERY LOW numbers for quite some time if my 2020 motherboard did not come with it enabled by default.
I am not 100% clear on what kind of system you have, but I do know that some motherboard vendors are shipping UEFI Firmware updates that turn the in CPU TPM on.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,880
4,871
Good luck if you have a spotty internet connection. Latency is a problem as well -- no thank you. Microsoft is only thinking of enterprises for Windows in the cloud, they have to the resources to have a stable fast internet connection -- us single users, it's sub optimal to say the least.

I agree, and you're SOL if you have no connection. My point was MS isn't interested in developing WoA for AS, they'd rather push a cloud subscription version which isn't aimed at the same user base as a VM solution.

It's designed for corporate environments. A centrally managed cloud based solution at a company with a fast, reliable connection can replace a lot of desktop solutions. Easier to manage, update, backup and users have it available anywhere they have a good connection. Potentially less susceptible to malware attacks since you can see the IP address where the login is from and limit it to known trusted addresses.

Desktops simply become dumb terminals again.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire

MS confirms that even virtual software require TPM 2.0!

I'm just going to stay on W10 for now. W10 support ends October 2025 so plenty of time to decide on W11. I usually like to be ahead of the curve and will likely look at the reviews late 2021 or early 2022 and will decide eventually. My old 2008 Desktop will stay on W10 so I will have a dedicated W10 system if I need it.

My long-term goal is to move my desktop to all macOS and leave Windows systems as secondary systems on my other desk and as a file server and other server. I might turn one into a gaming system if GPUs ever get reasonable again.
 
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haralds

macrumors 68030
Jan 3, 2014
2,991
1,252
Silicon Valley, CA
Even then it's probably not enough to notice. Windows has 4x the market share than MacOS. So for evry 40 Windows users there are 10 Mac. So if 20% use a VM that adds 2 Windows users, or 5%. I doubt that is of much interest to MS and even think 20% is probably a high estimate so the numbers are worse.
Gaining an additional 5% is a huge thing for any market share.
 

loby

macrumors 68000
Jul 1, 2010
1,882
1,514
Gaining an additional 5% is a huge thing for any market share.
Microsoft seems to be putting out mixed messages since this article came out..

As of recent and today’s propaganda statements by them, Apparently it will be allowed, but Microsoft will not support it if anything happens with the computer or loss of data etc.

Windows 11 will even work on unsupported “old” computers if you are able to figure out how to do it, but has made statements that they will not be liable. You do it at your own risk. They said that they won’t do anything if you do..but not obligated for updates or security updates.

Good news for some of us who don’t care and will not put it on a main system. Microsoft is just protecting the nonsense legal cases that could come because there will be of course some legal case against them for making people buy a new computer.

so all that said..it looks like VM’s are on!!!
 

loby

macrumors 68000
Jul 1, 2010
1,882
1,514
You are not much of a customer to Microsoft. They don’t make money of Windows.

It is why Microsoft doesn’t even care if people pirate Windows nowadays.

I am not defending Microsoft, I am just saying how it is. Windows is nothing more than a promotion for Microsoft nowadays rather than a cashcow.
Correct..

Did people forget that the OS is just a house for programs? If you use Windows, then chances are you use Office where their revenue comes from, including all of their business services etc. so now-a-days Windows is just the icing on the cake if they make any money off of sales. Plus they get their share from OEM Windows with every computer sold, so they get their $ somehow with Windows regardless.
 
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