Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
yes agreed - about 5% of the posters here truly realize what Flash MX is and can be. There is too much assumption and 2 year old thinking going on about this topic.

Flash MX is incredible. The GUI is being standardized (components), FCS and remoting can create intense, rich applications quickly and reliably. Flash apps on devices are MUCH better than c++ or java apps. The ocx integration isn't all there for security reasons but that may change moving forward.

Flash MX syntax has been greatly improved and made more OOP... which allows for much more serious coding resulting in some serious apps. Sorenson Spark Pro video codec, the audio codecs, device font integration, dynamic drawing api and masking, fast XML parsing, unicode integration, etc... its all there. And its still growing and getting better... for a plugin under 500k on a PC! Thats just insane.

Flash MX is beautiful and is changing the web today. You can ignore it if you'd like, but then you're left out. M$ attempted their own Flash killer app a few times already (using DHTML, etc) and they failed miserably. I think they would DEF want to buy Flash out. I hope it NEVER happens.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there also a rumor circulating a while back that Apple was looking into acquiring Macromedia? And Sorenson, if I remember correctly.
 
Re: Re: Everyone Listen, FLash and JAVA

Originally posted by andrewh
Finally an intelligent post here. Most people are greatly underestimating the potential of Flash MX -- but Microsoft clearly isn't. Because they're worried about where it's going. Flash is not just for animating logos. With the MX version there is very powerful object oriented programming and it is becoming everything that Java based web clients were supposed to be. I built a fast, robust database connected job site using Flash MX and remoting and it works beautifully on Mac and PC and is under 80k. Show me a java based client with the same UI that runs as well on all platforms -- you won't.

Agreed. Flash MX has the potential to be the front-end GUI for any web-based apps. Flash has essentially supplanted Applets as web-based animation tool of choice. However, it can do much more and is no mere "toy"--Actionscript is a simple yet powerful object-oriented language that can be used to deploy web-based apps.

I would disagree with the original article's assessment of ColdFusion MX, since it is hardly the only major J2EE application server. JBoss, BEA's Weblogic, etc. are more popular and just as capable.

BTW, if Microsoft or anyone wants to buy Macromedia, the minimum price will be about $688.8 million--Macromedia's current market cap. Assuming that the buyer will have to pay a 50% premium, the total price tag for Macromedia will be around one billion or so. This is chump change for Microsoft and its $40 billion stash.
 
HTML, and JavaScript are open standards - Flash is proprietary.

Sure the latest version of Flash may have even more bells and whistles, but developing Web sites using this type of proprietary solution will inevitably open you up to this sort of risk - it gets bought out and changes direction...

Aren't we better off working with open standards when they are good, popular and widely supported?
 
J2EE In Danger? Yeah... right...

I develop J2EE software professionally and also know and use Flash on occasion. Comparing Flash to J2EE is like comparing an elephant and a walnut. Sure, they both have DNA and they are both carbon-based life-forms, but their purposes and capabilities are so different that they are not really related beyond that.

Flash is a presentation layer technology. As such it is comparable to Java/Swing which has not truly taken off (for good reason). The fact is, however, that few people actually use Swing or applets that often in J2EE development. The model that's been steadily gaining in popularity has been the use of the MVC design pattern with Struts and JSP/Servlets. Even THAT is actually not related to J2EE. J2EE = Enterprise Java Beans and EJB's are a concept that I will not attempt to make non-J2EE programmers understand here now. Suffice it to say, that the EJB standard as a distributed component model is not now, and will never be, threatened by Flash and ColdFusion in the arenas where real, boring, day-to-day work happens (banking, education, government, accounting, etc). .Net is a competitor, but that's it and MS already owns it.

Let's all calm down. Even if MS DID acquire Flash (which I do not believe they will) it would not leave the Mac web browser and it would not stop the majority of the real heavy server-side development from making use of J2EE.
 
Hi thelodger - I agree with most of what you say, although it seems like the Macromedia mafia are in the forum today and will disagree.

I have to take issue with "J2EE=EJB" however - they are not one and the same thing.
 
Re: Re: Everyone Listen, FLash and JAVA

Originally posted by andrewh





Some of the weenies in the web design/development world have to come to grips with the fact that HTML is primitive and weak. Miniusa.com is an example of what websites should be. The internet is going to go through some huge changes in the next 10 years and fortunately a lot of people will be left behind.


miniusa.com is a perfect example of what is wrong with flash type of sites. Navigation is bad and the site is slow. If you are going to be entertained then fine but if you want to find something out (what people do who use the web all the time) then it is slow and you can not get to the data.

Flash is simply bad! You end up paying a lot to develop something that is good looking but it simply is not useful to do it all in flash. You could use flash for elements in a page but all flash sites are less than ideal.
 
I agree with the above comments on the miniusa site.

I work in an interactive marketing company, and many of our clients come to us wanting to know why their sites can not be found on any search engines. The answer is invariably simple - their site was developed in Flash and will need to be entirely redeveloped before it can be search engine compatible.

Flash is great for producing vector-based animations, but to develop an entire site in Flash exhibits poor judgement on the part of the designer, in my opinion.
 
Hi Jeff,

Good to see you too.

Wasn't it this time last year that you were considering retiring from this message board?

Glad you didn't :)
 
Originally posted by Foocha
Hi Jeff,

Good to see you too.

Wasn't it this time last year that you were considering retiring from this message board?

Glad you didn't :)

i was going to make a jan 1, 2002 exit but i decided to stay but at times i cut back and many posters surpassed me, but that was a relief because i then became more annonymous
 
Re: Re: Re: Everyone Listen, FLash and JAVA

Originally posted by kpbpsw


miniusa.com is a perfect example of what is wrong with flash type of sites. Navigation is bad and the site is slow. If you are going to be entertained then fine but if you want to find something out (what people do who use the web all the time) then it is slow and you can not get to the data.

Flash is simply bad! You end up paying a lot to develop something that is good looking but it simply is not useful to do it all in flash. You could use flash for elements in a page but all flash sites are less than ideal.


There are definitely challenges with authoring a site in Flash, like scrolling large amounts of text, bookmarking pages and the search engine issue. I completely agree.

The Mini site has always been lightning fast on every computer I've tried it on, and they use standard UI principles -- top menu with dropdown submenus (like the Mac OS), side navigation on the left, and interactive highlighting to let you know what is happening. I would think if you were smart enough to drive a car you could figure out that website. Sure, design is all opinion, but at least major design panels like Communication Arts, HOW and ID magazine agree that is is a well designed website.

I create websites in HTML and Flash, as my clients needs/desires dictate. From the designers perspective Flash is much more painless. Slicing up dozens of images in photoshop and creating dozens of HTML pages with multiple nested tables is a ridiculous amount of work. HTML is fundamentally limited and wasn't intended for what we're doing with it.

Maybe Flash as we know it isn't the full solution, but it's advancing in the right direction. Maybe there will be another technology like SVG or Interactive PDF's that will work the kinks out, but the web will be much different in the next ten years. Companies like Macromedia and Microsoft are thinking ahead. For now though, we will have a hodge podge of different technologies battling it out. Okay, this is way off topic....
 
Hi Andrewh

I agree with much of what you say.

I don't like Web sites with lots of sliced up images and nested tables any more than I like sites developed entirely in Flash.

I don't think HTML is limited, I think a lot of designers don't understand the ideas behind it and therefore use it badly.

It should be a sobering thought for Web designers that one of the most successful sites on the Web today is Google. It's not necessary to have extensive use of images and animation on order to deliver a great site.

A designer should start by considering the purpose of the site, and then select a design approach and technologies that will best meet that sites needs. It may be appropriate to use Flash extensively in a site promoting a new movie, but it's almost certainly not appropriate to do so on a long copy corporate Web site. Using Flash to create a long copy Web page which you scroll down is an extremely inappropriate use of Flash, when HTML does it with greater simplicity and elegance.

Most Web designers these days don't even have a clue what basic HTML elements like <h1> are for, and they've never gone near CSS. As a result they spend all their time using Dreamweaver to create nested tables, using Flash for long copy, and slicing up images containing paragraphs of text in Fireworks. (Thanks Macromedia).

If designers used these technologies in the way in which they were intended, we wouldn't have any of these problems. Perhaps its time for a Web designers' Dogma Manifesto in the style of Lars Von Triers...
 
Originally posted by Foocha

It should be a sobering thought for Web designers that one of the most successful sites on the Web today is Google. It's not necessary to have extensive use of images and animation on order to deliver a great site.

A designer should start by considering the purpose of the site, and then select a design approach and technologies that will best meet that sites needs. It may be appropriate to use Flash extensively in a site promoting a new movie, but it's almost certainly not appropriate to do so on a long copy corporate Web site. Using Flash to create a long copy Web page which you scroll down is an extremely inappropriate use of Flash, when HTML does it with greater simplicity and elegance.
...


Yes. I totally agree with your statements. True, sites like Google, Amazon, and eBay would never work in Flash. I don't claim to be an expert, but I guess I was just being philisophical, you know, wishing the internet was better. So where were we... oh yes, DIE Microsoft!
 
Microsoft covets Macromedia

WARNING: lenghty, sometimes rambling, post ahead

Microsoft fears anything it doesn't control. Hence, Microsoft fears the potential of Macromedia's products and, specfically, the rich functionality that these now offer between the client and server.

The 'Soft has long desired, yet remained conflicted about, Flash from day one, always wanting a substitute technology to emerge. Why do I know this? Lets just say I became intimately familiar with Microsoft's thinking and actions in this space over the past many years.

You would be amazed at the litany of abandoned products, dead-end acquisitions, and failed standards Microsoft has pursued in its quest for a rich, multimedia, client-side experience. Each of these failed for many reasons. A few examples from this sordid history:

DirectX Media was an ActiveX pass-through that let Mickey Mouse's head to flip around in 3-D, smack-dab in the center of your webpage. Anyone who used a PeeCee in the heady days of IE4 and its 'Channels' will remember this. In traditional Microsoft form, use of DirectX Media was mandatory for websites seeking optimal placement of within IE's Channel Bar. DXMedia was difficult to use, unstable, and not cross platform. Microsoft soon abandoned its Channels strategy, and after lingering a while under the guise of CHROME (anyone remember that?) DXMedia was abandoned as well.

Instead the focus shifted to the browser itself: DHTML. There was a time when MS wanted Trident (the rendering engine for IE) to become the presentation layer for Windows. "Everything should be HTML" was the drunken mantra of the day. Of course this flavor of HTML was proprietary, archaic in syntax, and submitted to the W3C as an afterthought; likewise its implemetation (the Trident engine) was slow, a memory hog,* and buggy as hell. But low and behold, you could write a playable Asteroids game using only DHTML and script, so it must be the future of multimedia, yes?

* In computer science, the tradeoff between size and speed is common: sacrificing gain in one for loss in the other. Yet MS continues to fly in the face of conventional wisdom by sacrificing both in exchange for... what?

Alas, Trident and its sizable ambitions were eventually laid to rest, but not before we saw HTML-based UI infiltrate many corners of Windows, Office, Money, and other MS products. Want to know the #1 reason behind Windows 98's outlandish memory requirements and stability problems? One word: Trident. Anyone who's been foolish enough to use the (Over-)ActiveDesktop on a PeeCee knows the troubles of which I speak. Now the 'Soft is working on a completely new rendering engine/presentation layer designed to catch-up with Quartz. HTML-as-catch-all-mutltimedia/UI-layer is dead.

With the advent of Mozilla (an honest, W3C-approved implementation) we all know where DHTML satnds today. Interesting? Sure. Useful at times? Yes. A competitor to Flash? Certainly not. During all of this, the good folks at Macromedia kept plugging away, keeping Flash focused, small, and portable.

Continuing to search for an alternative, Microsoft discounted SVG as an invention of Adobe (which it is). Instead they introduced an incompatible 'standard' called VML (Vector Markup Language). For short while MS considered cosidered VML a stategic mutltimedia initiative; it was submitted to the W3C, and heavily used by the CHROME team. In reality, VML was created to solve a radically different problem. The Office team was trying to add 'full' HTML persistence to .doc files in Office 2000. A careful inspection of the VML standard will show it bears a remarkable resemblance to Windows' GDI graphics calls... which just happened to be the way Office documents persisted snapshots of embedded content (spreadsheets, charts, etc.). VML's multimedia plans were abandoned with CHROME, but it'll live on in Office 'til the end of time. 'Nuff said.

Last I heard, Microsoft's multimedia eggs were in the SMIL basket (SMIL = Syncrhonized Multimedia Integration Languagem, another W3C spec). In fact, MS acquired and introduced a product with SMIL authoring in mind, only to turn it into an authoring environment for PowerPoint.

And ultimately, this last example demonstrates a common thread at the root of its many failures in this space: Microsoft does not wish to enter the multimedia authoring space.

Unless it directly benefits Windows or Office, there just isn't enough money in it to justify Microsoft's effort. At one point, the Windows Media Division presented an ambitious plan to popularize its media formats by building a suite of authoring tools; the plan was rejected for this exact reason. Visual Studio (another authoring environment) lost money for many, many years before becoming profitable. But this loss was tolerated since it created a market of applications for Windows.

ANYWAY, let me wander back to the original point: despite its many attempts, Microsoft's scattershot responses have not unseated the king of web multimedia: Flash. So why didn't Microsoft acquired Macromedia sooner? Why wait all this time? A few reasons

1. Not invented here. Microsoft would've preferred to develop a solution in-house.
2. Fear of multimedia authoring as unprofitable (actually, not-profitable-enough for Microsoft's liking).
3. Multimedia has always been a relatively low priority for Microsoft; its real focus over the past several years has been penetrating the server space with NT and killing Java with .NET.

Okay, so why the change of heart? If the acquisition rumors are true (and I believe they are), what has changed? What does MS see in Macromedia now that they didn't before?

1. Macromedia has moved far beyond the multimedia authoring space. With the acquisition of ColdFusion, they started competing in an area where Microsoft still feels threatened. (ColdFusion has given folks in the Visual Studio team fits for years).
2. Flash has cross-browser and cross-platform penetration & functionality that no other rich browser technology has yet achieved. Hundreds of millions of people use it, and Microsoft loves to control widely-popular, dominant technologies.
3. Flash today is about much more than the client. Microsoft looks at the combination of Flash, the Remoting & Communication Servers, then ColdFusion and its integration with Java on the back-end and sees one thing: a popular, end-to-end (client to webserver to business logic) solution in which the 'Soft controls nothing. No browser control (DHTML is bypassed with Flash), no language control (ActionScript and Java will do just fine), no server control (IIS and .NET aren't mandatory) and no OS control (many of these products don't require Windows).
As if this were unbearable enough, there's a final nail in the coffin:
4. Flash MX does cross-platform video streaming and conferencing. With its pentration, Flash sits on the cusp of becoming the solution for broadband web authoring. Unlike standalone clients, Flash builds everything into the plugin. And Flash MX takes care of webcam and audio configuration for you, seamlessly, on both Macs and PeeCees. And all this A/V goodness happens without using a single Windows Media codec or server. Ouch.

Before ending this far-too-long post, let me conclude with my top 5 predictions should Microsoft acquire Macromedia:

1. All Macromedia server products are kept or become Windows-only.
2. Multimedia authoring tools remain Mac & Windows.
3. Java support is dropped from all products (or becomes "J#", aka Java .NET).
4. The bulk of Flash Communication server becomes part of the Windows Media product line. All Flash audio & video becomes Windows Media-based.
5. Flash is annointed the chosen front-end for .NET development.

As you may have guessed, Microsoft acquiring Macromedia is not something I feel would benefit the computer industry at large. Yet I personally doubt the acquisition will happen, as it would be an awfully bold move in light of recent antitrust business. As a Mac user, I hope my prediction is more than wishful thinking.

That's all, folks.
 
Re: Microsoft covets Macromedia

Originally posted by dglow
As you may have guessed, Microsoft acquiring Macromedia is not something I feel would benefit the computer industry at large. Yet I personally doubt the acquisition will happen, as it would be an awfully bold move in light of recent antitrust business. As a Mac user, I hope my prediction is more than wishful thinking.

That's all, folks.

<Sigh.> :( I agree almost 100% with your assessment. I am pretty certain that Flash will become the front-end GUI for any web-based apps in the future, be it .NET or J2EE (if it isn't already). A Macromedia purchase by Microsoft would cost around $1 billion at most (see my previous post)--chump change for a company who has $40 billion in the vault.

Such an acquisition will put Microsoft directly in competition with Adobe--the current undisputed king of graphic software. Adobe, of course, is the entrenched leader in its industry, but the road to Microsoft's current dominance is littered with past defeated competitiors: Novell, Borland, Netscape, and Corel, just to name a few. If Microsoft does indeed buy Macromedia, don't be surprised if Windows 2004 suddenly comes bundled with a free graphics and web-authoring kit. Sounds absurd? Think Netscape.

BTW, I've noticed some confusion in some posts. Flash and J2EE have no direct connection per se. The Register speaks of Microsoft's threat to J2EE development with the purchase of Macromedia's ColdFusion. In addition to being a web animation tool, Flash is also a front-end GUI to web-based apps. The two issues are separate.
 
Apologies for being slightly off-topic.
I am a PC user currently considering switching to Mac. My main tools are Flash, Fireworks, Dreamweaver and Photoshop. On reading this thread I noted a number of people complaining how slow Flash is on a Mac (unsure whether this refers to the authoring tool, playback of SWF files, or both), which has me more than a little concerned.
My global query therefore is for someone that wishes to develop in Flash, which is the best platform, PC or Mac?
Thanx in advance for any advice submitted.
Vanilla
 
Flash RULES on OSX

Apologies for being slightly off-topic.
I am a PC user currently considering switching to Mac. My main tools are Flash, Fireworks, Dreamweaver and Photoshop. On reading this thread I noted a number of people complaining how slow Flash is on a Mac (unsure whether this refers to the authoring tool, playback of SWF files, or both), which has me more than a little concerned.
My global query therefore is for someone that wishes to develop in Flash, which is the best platform, PC or Mac?
Thanx in advance for any advice submitted.


Developing for Flash is definitely faster and easier on a Mac. Playback is a little slower but this is only the case if you use Flash incorrectly. If you use actionscript for animation instead of tweening or traditional animation techniques then you will end up with slower playback. On the other hand, if you use Flash correctly then you should be able to create content that plays smoothly on both platforms.
 
Developing for Flash is definitely faster and easier on a Mac. Playback is a little slower but this is only the case if you use Flash incorrectly. If you use actionscript for animation instead of tweening or traditional animation techniques then you will end up with slower playback. On the other hand, if you use Flash correctly then you should be able to create content that plays smoothly on both platforms.

Thanx for the response zoetropeuk, albeit it wasnt what I wanted to hear!. Just to clarify, are you saying that authoring on a Mac is fine but that if your Flash environment is predominately ActionScript based it will run slower not only in preview mode on your Mac authoring system but also for users accessing the final site via a Mac?

If this is correct it seems I have two problems where I suspected I had only one, namely:
1. Extensive ActionScripting is inadvisable on a Mac authoring platform
2. Users accessing actionscripted Flash sites via Macs will have viewing problems.

This essentially means that only PC users can truly enjoy Flash environments that fully utilise the power of ActionScripting, which to be glib for a moment, rather puts a positive light on Microsofts supposed interest in Macromedia.

As I enjoy developing ActionScript controlled Flash Environments and my audience base is predominately corporate and (sadly)hence PC based it does seem best to remain on a PC authoring platform. This is pretty sad as I really like the look and feel of OS X and was looking forward to moving to what I perceived to be the natural environment for Flash.

This sounds a little weird and I'll investigate further before making a final judgement, but I appreciate your response.
Kind regards
Vanilla
 
The Mac's Flash plugin is very slow with Action Script. The only way we've found around this is to detect Mac clients and set the image quality to low - this speeds things up, but is clearly a bit of a compromise.

There are many reasons why I would recommend a Mac over a PC for Web development, but Flash alone is not one of them. My advice would be to stick with what you know / what your business already uses unless you have a compelling reason to swith.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.